The Meaning of 666, The Reason for the Riddle

[Guest]

On 7/13/2017 at 10:41 PM, Alfred Persson said:

I will prove the following two proposition

Hey brother, 

Opening a post with this statement often creates defensiveness in people who read it.  By it you've postured yourself as possessing superior knowledge, revelation, etc.  Certainly, (hopefully), you didn't mean it that way.  

Readers without even a novice understanding of scientific abstracts and introductory statements to theoretical essays will likely see your opening statement as a proclamation of YOUR superiority, not necessarily the superiority of your research.  Your information will either prove or disprove itself without the label of "proof."

The information you've presented is interesting and merits some attention.  In my research, I have found that those viewpoints offered as proof tend to contradict opposing viewpoints also offered as proof.  An applicable example in end times doctrines about the timing of the rapture.  There are three primary views, some consider a fourth, ( or fifth). Among each of them are variations of lesser significance.

The issue is that all of them offer "proof" of their hypothesis.  Obviously, not all can be regarded as proven if they are not all in agreement.  Your opening statement causes your research to be called into question IF there are opposing "proofs.".  It seems there are.

In a Christian dialog, a body of evidence or results of research are better addressed in the realm of, " Hey, check this out.  What do you think of it?".  This allows readers to respond rather than react.  

Please consider opposing views for comparative analysis.  If you search, you may find, as I have, that some singular prophetic statements may have multiple applications, meanings, and fulfillments at different times in history, (including future "history").  

I've read many conclusions to research that do a remarkable job in explaining a meaning of a prophetic statement, as you have, but in presenting it they dismiss the other equally true aspects of that statement because they do not consider the multilayered aspects of Scripture.

You have offered a dynamic presentation of the infamous "six-hundred-sixty-six" prophecy.  It's is worthy of the attention of both historians and eschatologists.  I enjoyed it, even though I hesitated with the opening statement...LOL.   

Shalom brother.  

p.s. your research warrants publication, may I suggest you add other viewpoints, some of which may have been in the responses to your post.  I think that a well rounded presentation would be a good read.  

Edited September 9, 2017 by Guest
Added p.s.

[Retrobyter]

On 8/8/2017 at 4:22 PM, WilliamL said:

They are one and the same Beast, the "king...the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek...Apollyon [Destroyer]." Rev. 9:11

Cities don't come out of the Abyss, fallen angels and demons do.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 ...God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus...

Shalom, WilliamL.

Sorry, but that's wrong. Avaddown (Abaddon) in Hebrew does NOT mean "Destroyer," but rather "Destroyed!"

OT:11 'avaddown (ab-ad-done'); intensive from OT:6; abstract, a perishing; concrete, Hades:
KJV - destruction.

NT:622 apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:
KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

NT:623 Apolluon (ap-ol-loo'-ohn); active participle of NT:622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan):
KJV - Apollyon.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

NOTE: The words mean "a perishing" or the "active participle of 'to destroy fully'" or "destroyed fully." NEITHER ONE literally means "Hades" or "a destroyer (i.e. Satan)." THAT much is an OPINION of the translator!

It's not about an "angel"; it's about the king of the LOCUSTS of Revelation 9! These locusts are LITERAL "creatures" or "created beings" that come up out of the earth when a meteorite strikes the ground and cracks this pit open.

Revelation 9:1-3
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him (it) was given the key (location) of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power (Greek: exousia = "potency"), as the scorpions of the earth have power ("potency").
KJV

This swarm of locusts has a king like anthills and beehives have a queen! This species will need to be carnivorous to survive, but they are not equipped TO BE carnivorous! Therefore, they will attack human beings, prey large enough to suffice, but will be unable to kill them! In the process, they will have the poison of scorpions: a poison producing NERVE DYSFUNCTION in the victims! It will incapacitate the victims for five months and produce much pain, but it will not prove fatal!

Revelation 9:5-6
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
KJV

One must understand, too, that the Greek word "aggelos" doesn't mean "angel," although it is often "transliterated" that way. It means "messenger," and although it can SOMETIMES refer to superhuman "messengers," it also refers to HUMAN "messengers," as well as INANIMATE "messengers!"

Revelation 9:11-12
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of ("the messenger from") the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe (Greek: ouai = an onomatopoeia for a cry of grief: like "WHY?") is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
KJV

When the king dies, the swarm dies. That's why its name is "a perishing." An "abyss" or in Greek "abussos" means a pit with "no bottom." It's not talking about "hell"; it's talking about an UNSOUNDED chasm!

Edited September 13, 2017 by Retrobyter

[n2thelight]

Revelation 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

Wisdom comes from knowledge, and all wisdom is from God, from wisdom comes understanding. We were told to "count the number of the beast". This was written in Greek, and the Greek word means more then counting numbers. You simple can't understand this meaning if you don't understand this Greek word. The word is #5585 in Strong's Greek dictionary, and it means to "calculate by counting the stones that are warn smooth over a long period of time."

What stones? We were told in chapter two, we would receive a new stone with a new name written on it. This word "count" originated from that word "stone" of chapter two of the book of Genesis. These are the only places in the Bible this word for count, or stone is used. So we must enumerate, or calculate these stones worn smooth over a long period of time. "Their rock is not our Rock, and his stones are not our Stones," is what the overcomers will sing, as the "Song of Moses tells us in Deuteronomy 32. God is our Rock, and Satan is the false rock, but which stones are we to count?

The stones are the number of man, that man is Satan, and if you know Satan you will know his children. Those stones are his children . The "mark of the beast" number [6-6-6] then is to count, or know Satan's children over a long period of time. They are the "Kenites", the offspring of Cain

Jesus said in Revelation 2 and 3 that the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia were the only acceptable churches to Him, because they knew who the Kenites were. The Kenites were "those who said they were Jews, and lied; because they were of the synagogue of Satan". The seven churches are the seven types of churches existing in these last days. Five are not acceptable to God, while the two are.

[Daniel 11:36]

Satan is not a man and the Kenites are not part of Revelation's unfolding

You are reading Arnold Murray's rant and his Kenite imposition 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[WilliamL]

On 9/12/2017 at 10:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

  On 8/8/2017 at 2:22 PM, WilliamL said:

They are one and the same Beast, the "king...the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek...Apollyon [Destroyer]." Rev. 9:11

Cities don't come out of the Abyss, fallen angels and demons do.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Peter 2:4 ...God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus...

On 9/12/2017 at 10:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, WilliamL.

Sorry, but that's wrong. Avaddown (Abaddon) in Hebrew does NOT mean "Destroyer," but rather "Destroyed!" ...

NT:623 Apolluon (ap-ol-loo'-ohn); active participle of NT:622; a destroyer ...

If you had read what I wrote, not what you presumed I wrote, you would have seen that I didn't say Abaddon means Destroyer. I did not translate it at all. I only translated Apollyon.

 

On 9/12/2017 at 10:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

It's not about an "angel"; it's about the king of the LOCUSTS of Revelation 9! These locusts are LITERAL "creatures" or "created beings" that come up out of the earth when a meteorite strikes the ground and cracks this pit open.

Rev. 9:11 And they [the locusts] had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

So it is about an angel, who happens also be the king of the locusts; which king/angel currently dwells in the Abyss/Bottomless Pit, wherein the rebellious angels of pre-Diluvian times were cast. This angel is the worst of them, the one destined to be the arisen Beast of Rev. 11, 13, 17. All of this is told to us in the Scriptures, but few will accept what the Scriptures testify about these things.

Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the Beast that ascendeth out of the Abyss/bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev. 17:8 The Beast that thou sawest was, and is not [present]; and shall ascend out of the Abyss/bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

William L is correct

[Retrobyter]

On 9/14/2017 at 2:37 PM, WilliamL said:

...

Rev. 9:11 And they [the locusts] had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

So it is about an angel, who happens also be the king of the locusts; which king/angel currently dwells in the Abyss/Bottomless Pit, wherein the rebellious angels of pre-Diluvian times were cast. This angel is the worst of them, the one destined to be the arisen Beast of Rev. 11, 13, 17. All of this is told to us in the Scriptures, but few will accept what the Scriptures testify about these things.

Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the Beast that ascendeth out of the Abyss/bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev. 17:8 The Beast that thou sawest was, and is not [present]; and shall ascend out of the Abyss/bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Shabbat shalom, WilliamL.

Well, there you go. First, let me remind you that "angel" is a TRANSLITERATED word, the original Greek word being "aggelos," spelled "alpha-gamma-gamma-epsilon-lambda-omicron-stigma." Since the "gamma-gamma" ("gg") is how the Greeks represented the "ng" sound, it was transliterated as

alpha = a
gamma-gamma = ng
epsilon = e
lambda = l, and the omicron-stigma was dropped as superfluous in the English language.

However, the word MEANS "messenger" and should have been TRANSLATED that way. SOMETIMES, the word can represent a "supernatural messenger" as a "messenger from God," but most of the time it refers to a HUMAN "messenger!" At one point, John the Baptist was called an "aggelos" (Matthew 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 7:27) and so was the Messiah Yeshua` (the Christ Jesus) Himself (Isaiah 61:1-2; Luke 4:18-19)!

Therefore, you put too much stock in the word "angel." This creature is the MESSENGER from the pit which is unsounded.

Also, when you say "Abyss/bottomless pit" you're being redundant. The Greek word for "bottomless" IS "abussos," transliterated into the word "abyss." (Often, upsilon is transliterated into English as a "y" instead of a "u." Don't ask me why; I'm sure that there's some reason in history.) Again, it's...

alpha = a
beta = b
upsilon = y
sigma = s
sigma = s, dropping the ending "-omicron-stigma," for a personal noun and not needed in English.

"Abussos" is defined like this:

NT:12 abussos (ab'-us-sos); from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of NT:1037; depthless, i.e. (specially) (infernal) "abyss":
KJV - deep, (bottomless) pit.

NT:1 a (al'-fah); of Hebrew origin; the first letter of the alphabet; figuratively, only (from its use as a numeral) the first:
KJV - Alpha. Often used (usually an, before a vowel) also in composition (as a contraction from NT:427) in the sense of privation; so, in many words, beginning with this letter; occasionally in the sense of union (as a contraction of NT:260).

NT:1037 buthos (boo-thos'); a variation of NT:899; depth, i.e. (by implication) the sea:
KJV - deep.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Thus, if you know that "bussos" means "bottom" and "a" is the negative particle, then "a-bussos" means "no bottom." However, this doesn't mean that it is a "pit" (Greek word "freatos" from "frear") with literally "no bottom":

NT:5421 frear (freh'-ar); of uncertain derivation; a hole in the ground (dug for obtaining or holding water or other purposes), i.e. a cistern or well; figuratively, an abyss (as a prison):
KJV - well, pit.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It means that it is a pit with the bottom UNKNOWN! It's an UNSOUNDED pit; i.e., it's a very DEEP pit in which the bottom cannot be seen or discovered! It's not an "angel," per se; it's a locust that serves as a "MESSENGER."

The bottom line is this: you don't have to make this some "spiritual" conflict. Rather, it is a NATURAL species of creature not known before their release upon human beings. John described it as an insect; therefore, it IS an insect!

[WilliamL]

On 9/15/2017 at 9:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

The bottom line is this: you don't have to make this some "spiritual" conflict. Rather, it is a NATURAL species of creature not known before their release upon human beings. John described it as an insect; therefore, it IS an insect!

It is the Scriptures that say it is a spiritual conflict, and a spiritual being: a cast-down-to-the-Abyss (= Tartarus) angel. It is you that say that Apollyon is a natural creature and an insect, without any Scriptural authority whatsoever. But you are welcome to choose to believe whatever you want.

[Daniel 11:36]

Revelation 9:11 tells that Abaddon is the angelic king of the abyss

And then Revelation again describes this fallen angel [Revelation 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18; 19:19-20]

Believe that Satan uses this reprobate angelic for his structuring of the 7 kingdoms of the Middle East, 5 fallen and 2 more at the time of the end

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

It is the Scriptures that say it is a spiritual conflict, and a spiritual being: a cast-down-to-the-Abyss (= Tartarus) angel. It is you that say that Apollyon is a natural creature and an insect, without any Scriptural authority whatsoever. But you are welcome to choose to believe whatever you want.

Shalom, WilliamL.

When are you going to learn that the Greek word "aggelos" does NOT necessarily mean a SUPERNATURAL messenger? All it means is "MESSENGER!" That's it! Nine times out of ten, the word refers to a HUMAN messenger! And, the other 10% is divided between the supernatural messenger and the inanimate messenger, like a "thorn in the flesh!" It's not about a "spiritual conflict" because these locusts can bring PHYSICAL pain to the people they sting! Usually, a king is of the same kind as the subjects over which that king rules! Otherwise, how are the subjects going to understand what the king desires? or communicates?

YOU have no "Scriptural authority" either, bro'! You are attempting to merge your THEOLOGY (specifically, demonology) with the Scriptures, and merge disputable passages of Scripture with each other to support your THEORY that this king is somehow a king of the "Abyss" and your opinion that this "Abyss" is the same as Tartarus! Even haSatan himself is not the "king of hell," as so many attribute to him! HaSatan FEARS the Lake of Fire and Sulfur, knowing that it is his DESTINY, and struggles to avoid that destiny! But, yes, you too are welcome to choose to believe whatever you want. Just know, however, that choosing wrongly and TEACHING so is not without consequence.