Tongues

[seeking the lost]

On 9/11/2017 at 3:19 PM, Robert William said:

Tongues are always a human language.

Peter spoke in Hebrew and the Holy Spirit translated what he said in the minds of the foreigners.

Act 2:1  When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.
Act 2:2  And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3  And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.
Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5  Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6  And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7  And they were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
Act 2:8  And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?
Act 2:9  Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10  Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome,
Act 2:11  both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God."

 

Peter probably spoke in greek which was the trade language of the day.  Do you believe that the foreigners have the gift of translation?  The Holy Spirit gave the non believers this wonderful gift but would not give believers the ability to speak in other languages.  Is this what you believe? 

[Daniel Marsh]

On 2/11/2020 at 2:41 PM, enoob57 said:

1 Cor 14:32-33

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
KJV
 

I have been exposed to both, they are the same.

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Posted 5 minutes ago

God answers prayer and expects and demands we test spiritual things.    Otherwise,  He would not have given tests in the Hebrew Scriptures on testing prophets, nor would there be warnings in the Greek Scriptures.    By their fruits you will know them.   

TV Evangelists or whatever you call them spends your gifts on high living, expensive cars, etc.,    A "faith" preacher had a crusade in my area, so I drove through the parking lot to see most people drove junkers,  whereas, the speaker drove a rolls royce sweptail.   

Those gifts would be better getting a better more reliable vehicle for themselves and for missions at Church.   

Other forms of research that has been done, is record services in realtime.    Gather people who speak many languages along with Linguistics, to listen to the recordings.    No one has yet to identify or even say there is in fact a language being spoken there.   The first and defining text on tongues, unknown languages to the speaker was in ACTS 2 where many languages were heard.   

The false religions back then spoke gibberish like we hear in the churches today.   I think in both cases, it was just the flesh doing baby talk because no speaker made sounds inconsistent with their native language. 

Isaiah 8:19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
 
Isaiah 10:14And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

Ecclesiastes 10:11Surely the serpent will bite without enchantment; and a babbler is no better.

Matthew 6:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

One thing that does stand out on those recordings is repetitions of the same sounds. 

[Daniel Marsh]

1 Corinthians 14:22-25 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
22 And from this we see that the use of different languages shows how God deals with those who don’t believe, not with those who believe. And prophecy shows how God works through those who believe, not through unbelievers. 23 Suppose the whole church meets together and you all speak in different languages. If some people come in who are without understanding or don’t believe, they will say you are crazy. 24 But suppose you are all prophesying and someone comes in who does not believe or who is without understanding. Their sin will be shown to them, and they will be judged by everything you say. 25 The secret things in their heart will be made known. So they will bow down and worship God. They will say, “Without a doubt, God is here with you.”

[Buddy D. Mouse]

Cessationists are like the blind men describing the elephant.

One touched it's tail - said the elephant is like a rope - one touched it's leg - said the elephant is like a tree, one touched it's side - said the elephant is like a wall, etc.

Cessationists are just blind men describing the elephant.

[Paul James]

On 2/26/2020 at 6:50 AM, Daniel Marsh said:

1 Corinthians 14:22-25 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
22 And from this we see that the use of different languages shows how God deals with those who don’t believe, not with those who believe. And prophecy shows how God works through those who believe, not through unbelievers. 23 Suppose the whole church meets together and you all speak in different languages. If some people come in who are without understanding or don’t believe, they will say you are crazy. 24 But suppose you are all prophesying and someone comes in who does not believe or who is without understanding. Their sin will be shown to them, and they will be judged by everything you say. 25 The secret things in their heart will be made known. So they will bow down and worship God. They will say, “Without a doubt, God is here with you.”

How does this relate to 1 Corinthians 14:2 where Paul says that the person who speaks in tongues speaks to God and that no man understands him?  And if tongues were understandable languages, why does Paul say that speaking in tongues in church doesn't edify anyone because no one understands what is being spoken, so it is better to speak to one's self and to God?   And, Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than them all, and would they all spoke in tongues, so if not in church, where would he have spoken in tongues, and where would he prefer they also speak in tongues?

And, by the way, when was the last time you were in church and someone prophesied, and the unbelievers there fell on their faces, acknowledged that the reality of God was among you and turned to Christ as a result?

[Daniel Marsh]

3 hours ago, Paul James said:

How does this relate to 1 Corinthians 14:2 where Paul says that the person who speaks in tongues speaks to God and that no man understands him?  And if tongues were understandable languages, why does Paul say that speaking in tongues in church doesn't edify anyone because no one understands what is being spoken, so it is better to speak to one's self and to God?   And, Paul said that he spoke in tongues more than them all, and would they all spoke in tongues, so if not in church, where would he have spoken in tongues, and where would he prefer they also speak in tongues?

And, by the way, when was the last time you were in church and someone prophesied, and the unbelievers there fell on their faces, acknowledged that the reality of God was among you and turned to Christ as a result?

1611 English the word Tongue(s) simply meant a language.     In Acts 2,  we are given a clear definition that they spoke in languages or dialects unknown to the speaker.   Paul in Corinthians uses the illustration of playing charge or music to call people into battle.   The whole point is, one speaking in tongues or languages that the speaker does not know --- can be known by someone visiting the worship service.   

"

¹⁹ But words that make sense can help the church. That’s why in church I had rather speak five words that make sense than to speak ten thousand words in a language that others don’t know.

²⁰ My friends, stop thinking like children. Think like mature people and be as innocent as tiny babies. ²¹ In the Scriptures the Lord says,

“I will use strangers
who speak unknown languages
    to talk to my people.
They will speak to them
    in foreign languages,
but still my people
    won’t listen to me.”

²² Languages that others don’t know may mean something to unbelievers, but not to the Lord’s followers. Prophecy, on the other hand, is for followers, not for unbelievers. ²³ Suppose everyone in your worship service started speaking unknown languages, and some outsiders or some unbelievers come in. Won’t they think you are crazy?"

Isaiah 28:11-12 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
11 So, the Lord will speak
    to his people
in strange sounds
    and foreign languages.
12 He promised you
perfect peace and rest,
    but you refused to listen.

Footnotes:
28.11 in. . . foreign languages: This probably refers to the language of the Assyrians.

Isaiah 28:11-12 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
11 So He will speak to this people
with stammering speech
and in a foreign language.
12 He had said to them:
“This is the place of rest,
let the weary rest;
this is the place of repose.”
But they would not listen.

 

Isaiah 28:11-12 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
11 So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.

12 In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”

But they would not listen to him.

I know Hebrew and "foreign language" is the clear meaning in Isaiah and would be the clear meaning where it is quoted too.

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Daniel Marsh

[Paul James]

33 minutes ago, Daniel Marsh said:

1611 English the word Tongue(s) simply meant a language.     In Acts 2,  we are given a clear definition that they spoke in languages or dialects unknown to the speaker.   Paul in Corinthians uses the illustration of playing charge or music to call people into battle.   The whole point is, one speaking in tongues or languages that the speaker does not know --- can be known by someone visiting the worship service.   

"

¹⁹ But words that make sense can help the church. That’s why in church I had rather speak five words that make sense than to speak ten thousand words in a language that others don’t know.

²⁰ My friends, stop thinking like children. Think like mature people and be as innocent as tiny babies. ²¹ In the Scriptures the Lord says,

“I will use strangers
who speak unknown languages
    to talk to my people.
They will speak to them
    in foreign languages,
but still my people
    won’t listen to me.”

²² Languages that others don’t know may mean something to unbelievers, but not to the Lord’s followers. Prophecy, on the other hand, is for followers, not for unbelievers. ²³ Suppose everyone in your worship service started speaking unknown languages, and some outsiders or some unbelievers come in. Won’t they think you are crazy?"

Isaiah 28:11-12 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
11 So, the Lord will speak
    to his people
in strange sounds
    and foreign languages.
12 He promised you
perfect peace and rest,
    but you refused to listen.

Footnotes:
28.11 in. . . foreign languages: This probably refers to the language of the Assyrians.

Isaiah 28:11-12 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
11 So He will speak to this people
with stammering speech
and in a foreign language.
12 He had said to them:
“This is the place of rest,
let the weary rest;
this is the place of repose.”
But they would not listen.

 

Isaiah 28:11-12 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
11 So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.

12 In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”

But they would not listen to him.

I know Hebrew and "foreign language" is the clear meaning in Isaiah and would be the clear meaning where it is quoted too.

 

If you have spent your whole christian life sitting under Cessationist teaching, and it has become so ingrained in you, I can understand that you know hardly anything about what I am talking about.  If you have never interceded for anyone through the Spirit in an intercessory language that flows out of you, and then getting the absolute assurance that God has heard the prayer, and then found out later that a miracle has occurred as the result of the intercession then that is an area quite foreign to you, and you will never get to that depth of intercession.

[Daniel Marsh]

On 4/28/2020 at 8:26 PM, Paul James said:

If you have spent your whole christian life sitting under Cessationist teaching, and it has become so ingrained in you, I can understand that you know hardly anything about what I am talking about.  If you have never interceded for anyone through the Spirit in an intercessory language that flows out of you, and then getting the absolute assurance that God has heard the prayer, and then found out later that a miracle has occurred as the result of the intercession then that is an area quite foreign to you, and you will never get to that depth of intercession.

Friend, you are using a poor tactic known as pigeon hole thinking.    For starters,  I am not a Cessationist,  nor have I ever found their poor interpretation of I Cor 13:8-10 as credible --- Eph 4:11-13 text knocks them out of the ball park.   When I pray in the Spirit,  it is in Hebrew.     Praying in the Spirit has nothing to do with praying in a language that I do not know.   When I have visited Charismatic or Pentecostal Churches,  sometimes someone will say they heard Hebrew.   I would ask them what Hebrew sounds like?   The Pastor or an Elder, who knows me is usually standing by with a smile.   I would point out that I speak Hebrew and no one, not even myself said a word in Hebrew.  

Isaiah 28:11-12 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
11 So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.

12 In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”

But they would not listen to him.

Definition of derision
1a: the use of ridicule or scorn to show contempt
b: a state of being laughed at or ridiculed : a state of being derided
2: an object of ridicule or scorn

The people in Isaiah 28 were full of Derision concerning God's Message.   Stammering of KJV is Strange Lips, Scornful, Mocking, words of Contempt.

In Isaiah 45:14 and Zech 8:23 alluded to in I Cor 14:23-25 were full of belief.    

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+45%3A14%2C+Zech+8%3A23%2C++I+Cor+14%3A23-25&version=ERV

There is nothing wrong in doing correct exegesis.   You can check a copy of Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament was edited by G. K. Beale and D. A. Carson, to verifly my assertions.    You may be surprised to see that one of the authors is Charismatic.  

Ephesians 4:11-13 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
11 And that same Christ gave these gifts to people: He made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to care for and teach God’s people.[a] 12 Christ gave these gifts to prepare God’s holy people for the work of serving, to make the body of Christ stronger. 13 This work must continue until we are all joined together in what we believe and in what we know about the Son of God. Our goal is to become like a full-grown man—to look just like Christ and have all his perfection.

 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

My Basic position on Tongues,  speaking in foreign languages one does not know is God can give them to anyone he wants.

I have had two cases of Missionary tongues with Muslims which can not be verified because both became Martyrs shortly thereafter. 

People have tested what is going on and nothing even resembling any kind of language is coming out of the mouths. 

Tests have also been done on those who interpret and been found wanting.  

God can do it, but Test All Things, and embrace that which is true.    When Jesus healed people, he would expect them or tell them to go to the Priests to be examined. 

Matthew 8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “Listen! Don't tell anyone, but go straight to the priest and let him examine you; then in order to prove to everyone that you are cured, offer the sacrifice that Moses ordered.”

Luke 17:14 Jesus saw them and said to them, “Go and let the priests examine you.” On the way they were made clean.

God has no problem with his miracles being tested.    The best example is the Apostle Thomas.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+9&version=GNT

1 John 1:1 [ The Word of Life ] We write to you about the Word of life, which has existed from the very beginning. We have heard it, and we have seen it with our eyes; yes, we have seen it, and our hands have touched it.

John 20

24 One of the twelve disciples, Thomas (called the Twin), was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

Thomas said to them, “Unless I see the scars of the nails in his hands and put my finger on those scars and my hand in his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later the disciples were together again indoors, and Thomas was with them. The doors were locked, but Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands; then reach out your hand and put it in my side. Stop your doubting, and believe!”

28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Do you believe because you see me? How happy are those who believe without seeing me!”

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I think the highlight of Paul on Spiritual Gifts is to seek the higher gifts.