Lucifers creation and rebellion.

[simplejeff]

In Scripture, at one or more places, the sun and the moon and the stars,  as written, referred to people.

Thus,  if again the sun and the moon and the stars , as written, refers to people,

this is not hard to understand, is it ?

[Justin Adams]

Your logic is Helegian. And has a Genetic Fallacy. Finally it relies on many Subversive Reports.

[HAZARD]

3 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Your logic is Helegian. And has a Genetic Fallacy. Finally it relies on many Subversive Reports.

Such as?

2 Peter 3:5-7; 

V. 5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
 V. 6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
  V. 7, But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This ignorance of biblical facts is not forced upon men. They are willingly ignorant, preferring to remain in darkness. They shut their eyes against the light and refuse all evidence.

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, simplejeff said:

In Scripture, at one or more places, the sun and the moon and the stars,  as written, referred to people.

Thus,  if again the sun and the moon and the stars , as written, refers to people,

this is not hard to understand, is it ?

Scriptures please?

[1to3]

On 11/29/2017 at 12:22 PM, 1to3 said:

Genesis  Chapter 3 :1-5

1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God indeed said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

 

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes shall be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

 

 

So the Lord said to the serpent:

14 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So the lord said to Eve:

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in pain  shalt you bring forth children; your desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over you.

So the Lord said to Adam;

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou have heeded the  voice of thy wife, and have eaten from the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:

Cursed is the ground for thy sake;

in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Both thorns also and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field.

19 In the sweat of your face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou are, and to dust you shall return.

 

So the serpent, Eve and Adam all seem to have been punished and changed after they decided to partake in satans suggestions to disobey God.

 

Hello Hazard, I also just found another passage in the book of Revelation ch12:7-9

Revelation 12:7-9King James Version

⁷ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

⁸ And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

⁹ And the great dragon was cast out, ***that old serpent,*** called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Lucifer now satan after his fall from grace is referred to as that old serpent.

so with that said, it could well be that is was lucifer who came to Eve and represented himself as a serpent, as he is refereedin Revelations ch12:7-9  to being a serpent of old.

 

I think that Lucifer was created in the seven day creation period, just his pride got to him.

  As an appointed cherub by God to look over the high mountains of God as well as look over and cover in safety the Garden of Eden as the cherub that he was appointed to be.

  Lucifer in his musings, probably did no think it fitting for a  superior being like him  should bow down to man as he may have pridefully thought  himself superior to man and perhaps was Jealous that God had mainly created the earth for the pleasure of man, having given Adam dominion over the earth.

So Lucifer in his musings instead of wanting to serve and cover Eden and  cover the Gods high mountain like the cherub he was appointed to be, thought to himself no , He could do better than that, and by better, try to get to do things higher and better than God by usurping Gods power.

the one way to get to a  position of power and control that lucifer/ satan wanted  was by trying to  usurp power from God .  By trying to get as many angels as he could get to follow him and help him achieve his goal of usurping God power

However God nipped lucifers plan in the bud by striking lucifer and  1/3 of angels down from the heavens plane to the earth plane.

That is when God subjugated lucifer even more, closing lucifer off to the rights he once had as cherub to Gods high mountain and cherub to cover Eden. Clipping his position and making lucifer,  satan, the serpent of old , subjugated to the earth .
That is when Lucifer tries once again to usurp  Gods power and decision, by getting to Adam. By getting adam also to be tempted down by pride and sin,  and he did so through someone weeker and more vulnerable than adam, he did so though Eve.

Lucifer was prideful and jealous that God created man ( a little lower than the angels-so lower than lucifer- and that man was given dominion over the earth to care for it .

By Adam and Eves temptation through satan in the Garden of Eden, God used licifer,satan, old serpents plan of deceit to His advantage.

 

God used satans downfall for His benefit of having man live on earth to either make the choice to find God back through repentance or to die in carnal willful sin, just like lucifer.

To add most likely prideful insult to fallen lucifer/ satan, God made himself come down as man- Christ Jesus- to conquer sins power over mankind, so that lucifers plan of damning  ALL of mankind would be no longer in his power but back to Gods power.

Lucifer was jealous over man and what God gave man at creation which was dominion over the earth. Lucifer tried to usurp the position that God gave man and failed twice, once by trying to gather the angels to come with him, trying to establish himself higher and greater that God Himself and then falling and loosing his original position as covering cherub and then a second time by trying to get to Adam through Eve to fall prey to sin themselves.

Christ jesus sealed the deal for Lucifer, by coming down as man and paying the ultimate price for man so that Lucifer could no longer destreoy all mankind like he wanted to through his prideful jealousy over mankind and God.

At the cross of calvary it was finished. Christ Jesus vanquished satans power over mankind .

God in His infinite wisdom made use of Lucifers downfall and that is:

 To make use of Lucifer  as a tool to weed  out the wheat from the chaff.

Like the bible states in Genesis, the beginning of ALL creation happened in the seven day creation.

The referrals in scripture that you mention pertain to Noahs flood and no from as you say, from satan having once lived before the creation time and ruled the earth.

If God is Light and God is Good, He only allows things that he created to work out for His GOOD and final purpose.

God weeds out the the wheat from the chaff.

He did so with the angels

and is doing so with mankind.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by 1to3

[HAZARD]

There were two great floods on this earth as clearly depicted by all the scriptures I have posted in the Noah's flood, Lucifers flood, in this debate. The floods were vastly different as seen by these scriptures. The first was caused by Lucifers rebellion, the second by mans. All one has to do is read them all.

Noahs flood which I will post as . 'N.F.' Lucifers flood, L.F.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).

 

N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

Now Peter mentions in 2 Peter 3:5-7; that there will be scoffers in the last days, refusing to believe there was a society ruled by Lucifer, which was destroyed because of his rebellion and attempted invasion into heaven to dethrone God.

V. 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers,  walking after their own lusts,

V. 4, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

V. 5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
 V. 6, Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed by water, PERISHED: (Noah, his wife, sons and daughters, and all animals never perished in Noahs flood.)

 V. 7, But the heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This ignorance of biblical facts is not forced upon men. They are willingly ignorant, preferring to remain in darkness. They shut their eyes against the light and refuse all evidence.

[hmbld]

Your evidence clearly states one flood after the creation account of six days. 

[HAZARD]

11 minutes ago, hmbld said:

Your evidence clearly states one flood after the creation account of six days. 

Did you even read the scriptures which clearly and distinctly show two different universal floods, with two different outcomes? If you did, which I doubt because it took me days to find and check each one, and you still don't believe there were two great floods, then you my friend, are as Peter stated in 2 Peter 3:5-7, a willingly and wilfully ignorant scoffer, as Peter said some in the last days will be.

[hmbld]

9 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Did you even read the scriptures which clearly and distinctly show two different universal floods, with two different outcomes? If you did, which I doubt because it took me days to find and check each one, and you still don't believe there were two great floods, then you my friend, are as Peter stated in 2 Peter 3:5-7, a willingly and wilfully ignorant scoffer, as Peter said some in the last days will be.

I have told you several times that I have checked. Not sure we should cal people who disagree with us names. You seem to think you have special knowledge to discern these scriptures, believing they reveal something most disagree with. Tell me, what purpose does this theory hold?  How does it point to Christ?

[HAZARD]

2 hours ago, hmbld said:

 I have told you several times that I have checked. Not sure we should cal people who disagree with us names. You seem to think you have special knowledge to discern these scriptures, believing they reveal something most disagree with. Tell me, what purpose does this theory hold?  How does it point to Christ?

I mean no harm. I have no special knowledge, I just believe what I read when I put each and every scripture on this doctrine together. I'm just quoting Peter when he said some are wilfully ignorant of this revelation. I suppose it points to Christ in saying I accept and believe His Word regarding His creation, how and when He created and why He destroyed the first earth and all in it, and re-created it to a liveable state for Adam and Eve and their descendent's.

5, For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water, and in the water: 

This proves the world was not created all wet as I  Gen. 1:2, but dry, then flooded and later restored to a dry state as in Gen. 1:9-10.

The world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.

The world, Greek, kosmos, social system. The one that then was being deluged with water perished, (V. 6). Here Peter is referring to the pre-Adamite world that "TOTALLY "perished by the flood of Gen. 1:2; Ps.104:5-9. There was no man, bird, or any other life left after this flood (Jer. 4:23-26).

  23, I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;  and the heavens they had no light. 
    24, I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
    25, I beheld, and, lo, there was NO MAN, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
    26, I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

The only time the earth has ever been without form and void was before the 6 days of Gen. 1:3-2:25 when it was made chaos through the fall of Lucifer and the pre-Adamites, when God brought the first great universal flood upon the earth to destroy "ALL LIFE" (Gen. 1:2; 2 Peter 3:5-7). The statement "without form and void" means desolate and empty. The only time the sun, moon, and stars of heaven were forbidden to give light on the earth was in the period before the six days of re-creation, as in Gen. 1:2. There had been light on the earth when it was first created, "In the beginning (Gen. 1:1), and there has been light ever since the first day of Gen. 1:3-31; so the period of such darkness took place on the earth sometime after the beginning and before the restoration to a second habitable state in the six days of gen. 1:3-2:25.

Permanent and eternal laws were given to the sun, moon, and stars at this time as proved in Jer. 31:35-36; Gen. 1:14-19; Ps. 72:5, 17; 89:35-37.

One thing is certain, Jer. 4:23-26 could not apply to the time of Noah, for at that time the heavens had lights, and there were men, birds, animals, and fruitful places, (Noah sent out a bird and it returned with a leaf), left on the earth after Noahs flood; whereas in the case of the curse brought upon the original earth, none of these things remained. Therefore if we rightly divide the Word of Truth we should associate Jer. 4:23-26, with Gen. 1:2 and 2 Peter 3:5-6, recognising that there had been light, fixed mountains and hills, men and birds, fruitful places, and cities on the earth before this curse, and before Adam and the six days of restoration to a second habitable state as in Gen. 1:3-2:25.

The purpose of God showing Jeremiah the total destruction of life on the earth in Jer. 4:23-26 was to reveal how the land of Juda would be destroyed, and to make a comparison between the two times. In the original judgment on the whole earth all life had been destroyed, but in Judah God was to make an exception; He declared He would not make a full end on the original earth (V. 27).