But draw us to You, away from that which is grievous?

[listener24]

I've just discovered this literal translation from greek of the Lord's prayer.

"Father of ours who 's in * heaven,
hallowed be thy name of yours,
come thy kingdom of yours,
arise thy will of yours,
as in heaven, also on earth.

This bread of ours that 's for the coming day give us this day.
And free us from these debts of ours
as also we have freed those debtors of ours.
And do not lead us into trial,
but draw us to you, away from that which is grievous ."

It looks completely astonishing to me. What is the coming day and why should we ask that bread of the coming day today? 

Moreover, "DRAW US TO YOU, AWAY from that which is grievous" seems to have an even stronger meaning than how is usually interpreted. Especially for a prayer that starts with "Father of ours who is in Heaven".

What does this translation inspire you? 

Thanks

SOURCE:

http://pagenotes.com/prayer/LordsPrayer.html

http://biblehub.com/greek/4506.htm

 

Edited December 4, 2017 by listener24

[HarvestLabourer]

Thank you, listener24,

it cause me to remember this verse.

Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you.
Cleanse your hands, ye sinners;
and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
James 4:8

I think the coming day just means today,
and our daily bread is scripture.

Bless God
Paul

For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory,
for ever. Amen
Matthew 6:13

[Mary8]

I see it.   The part about "draw us to you, away from that which is grevious."    That can truly be compared to believers yearning for the rapture.    When we think of our "blessed hope" it is surely the rapture.    Draw us to you echoes that hope.    As to give us our bread for the coming day, that is to me much more subtle than Draw us, and if we are asking for bread for the coming day it could be a prayer in morning time, but it does seem to fit (asking for Scripture for spiritual need as we both see and read of coming events).   Hard to put into words.   The word parable has very interesting meaning, para as I recall means to lay things side by side for comparison, and ble from ballo (it said) can have the meaning "to see."   Jesus explained His use of parables to the disciples.   Thanks for this.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Mary8

[listener24]

49 minutes ago, Mary8 said:

As to give us our bread for the coming day, that is to me much more subtle than Draw us

Thanks for your answer!

The bread of tomorrow, or the "bread for the day that is coming", is often interpreted as the banquet of the Messianic Era, about which Jesus speaks an abnormal number of times. Otherwise would be a very weird expression "the bread of tomorrow give us today", would make little sense. 

https://torahclub.ffoz.org/disciples/matthew/tomorrows-bread-today.html

Edited December 4, 2017 by listener24

[MyLordsServant]

15 hours ago, listener24 said:

It looks completely astonishing to me. What is the coming day and why should we ask that bread of the coming day today? 

Moreover, "DRAW US TO YOU, AWAY from that which is grievous" seems to have an even stronger meaning than how is usually interpreted. Especially for a prayer that starts with "Father of ours who is in Heaven".

 

If this transliteration is 100% correct, then it does bring up some questions.

Relative to the translations that I looked through, they all miss the 'full' representation, if it's indeed full. 

"The coming day", could mean within the next 24 hours, but it would make little sense as you mentioned. Looks like they may have threw the word, "coming" into the verse, I would question what word it was translated from. I noticed they included the 2 Codex's for translation, which are also questionable. 

Otherwise, if there is a hidden meaning that hasn't been discovered, I would have no clue what it is. All we can do is pray and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal what it means and it's importance. 

 

 

 

[listener24]

42 minutes ago, MyLordsServant said:

If this transliteration is 100% correct, then it does bring up some questions.

Relative to the translations that I looked through, they all miss the 'full' representation, if it's indeed full. 

According to the author of that translation, "The verb ῥῦσαι is interesting in that it carries an implicit object. Failure to translate this implicit object lessens God's role here.". So this is where it would come from what is seems something in addition. (Here is another source for that: http://www.cfcindia.com/wftw/do-not-lead-us-into-temptation-but-deliver-us-from-evil-matthew-613 regardless the article interpretation of the meaning, it says  "The word `deliver' could be paraphrased as, "Draw us to Thyself".

42 minutes ago, MyLordsServant said:

"The coming day", could mean within the next 24 hours, but it would make little sense as you mentioned. Looks like they may have threw the word, "coming" into the verse, I would question what word it was translated from. I noticed they included the 2 Codex's for translation, which are also questionable. 

Regarding the bread it has always been controversial, see wikipedia article. So far it makes more sense to me the consideration "Raymond E. Brown rejects the literal interpretation as the rest of the prayer is clearly metaphorical and eschatological, and a literal request for bread is out of place".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6:11

But I'm open. As you said, let's pray the Lord for a better understanding. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by listener24

[listener24]

5 hours ago, Yowm said:

Nothing like comparison.

Hi Yowm!

The bread has always been controversial because the word "epiousios" (that in the translations you have found is used as "daily") is unique to the Lord's Prayer in all of ancient Greek literature. 

"The word is almost a hapax legomenon, occurring only in Luke and Matthew's versions of the Lord's Prayer, and nowhere else in any other extant Greek texts.[4] Several other terms in the New Testament are also translated as daily, but they all reference hemeran (ἡμέραν, "the day"), which does not appear in this usage.[5]"

Here you can find the whole discussion that respected scholars have made on the subject. In the quote above, you've reported just a subset of their outcomes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6:11

Other outcomes of scholars' studies, respectable as well, have been:

- supersubstantial bread

- bread for tomorrow

---------------------------------------------------------------------

About the deliverance, the literal translation from greek (the language of the NT,  not from latin ) of the word ῥύομαι has the following possible meanings:

"draw to one's self, rescue, deliver, set free, 
redeem, shield, guard, protect"

http://lexiconcordance.com/greek/4506.html

http://www.cfcindia.com/wftw/do-not-lead-us-into-temptation-but-deliver-us-from-evil-matthew-613

http://pagenotes.com/prayer/LordsPrayer.html

http://biblehub.com/greek/4506.htm

Thanks!

Edited December 5, 2017 by listener24

[listener24]

18 hours ago, Yowm said:

Many like to dissect and inspect the bread, I like to eat it.

Hehe

Jokes apart:

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

[...]

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by listener24

[Justin Adams]

This English version without the doxology of the Our Father became accepted throughout the English-speaking world, even though the later English translations of the Bible including the Catholic Douay-Rheims (1610) and Protestant King James versions (1611) had different renderings of prayers as found in the Gospel of St. Matthew. Later, the Catholic Church made slight modifications in the English: "who art" replaced "which art," and "on earth" replaced "in earth." During the reign of Edward VI, the Book of Common Prayer (1549 and 1552 editions) of the Church of England did not change the wording of the Our Father nor add the doxology. However, during the reign of Elizabeth I and a resurgence to rid the Church of England from any Catholic vestiges, the Lord’s Prayer was changed to include the doxology.

The Prayer to Our Father in the Original Aramaic

Abwûn O cosmic Birther, from whom the breath of life comes, d'bwaschmâja who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration. Nethkâdasch schmach May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest. Têtê malkuthach. Your Heavenly Domain approaches. Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha. Let Your will come true in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense). Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna. Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need, Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên. detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others. Wela tachlân l'nesjuna Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations), ela patzân min bischa. but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose. Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn. From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age. Amên. Sealed in trust, faith and truth. (I confirm with my entire being) http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

Edited December 6, 2017 by Justin Adams

[listener24]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

This English version without the doxology of the Our Father became accepted throughout the English-speaking world, even though the later English translations of the Bible including the Catholic Douay-Rheims (1610) and Protestant King James versions (1611) had different renderings of prayers as found in the Gospel of St. Matthew. Later, the Catholic Church made slight modifications in the English: "who art" replaced "which art," and "on earth" replaced "in earth." During the reign of Edward VI, the Book of Common Prayer (1549 and 1552 editions) of the Church of England did not change the wording of the Our Father nor add the doxology. However, during the reign of Elizabeth I and a resurgence to rid the Church of England from any Catholic vestiges, the Lord’s Prayer was changed to include the doxology.

The Prayer to Our Father in the Original Aramaic

Abwûn O cosmic Birther, from whom the breath of life comes, d'bwaschmâja who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration. Nethkâdasch schmach May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest. Têtê malkuthach. Your Heavenly Domain approaches. Nehwê tzevjânach aikâna d'bwaschmâja af b'arha. Let Your will come true in the universe (all that vibrates) just as on earth (that is material and dense). Hawvlân lachma d'sûnkanân jaomâna. Give us wisdom (understanding, assistance) for our daily need, Waschboklân chaubên wachtahên aikâna daf chnân schwoken l'chaijabên. detach the fetters of faults that bind us, (karma) like we let go the guilt of others. Wela tachlân l'nesjuna Let us not be lost in superficial things (materialism, common temptations), ela patzân min bischa. but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose. Metol dilachie malkutha wahaila wateschbuchta l'ahlâm almîn. From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age. Amên. Sealed in trust, faith and truth. (I confirm with my entire being) http://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

18

Hi Justin Adams!

Thanks for your post.

This supposed translation from Aramaic, from that website "thenazareneway", doesn't seem reliable, seems more a creation of who wrote the article. 

For instance, here are discussed translation from aramaic, and they seem to be closer to the known translation than the one in "thenazareneway":

https://righteousendeavour.com/ressources/0c7ce54c028546018a33a37db54bd2ed69879307.PDF

http://aramaicherald.blogspot.it/2011/03/lords-prayer-in-original-aramaic-by.html

ARAMAIC WORD /Pronunciation/ Meaning

ܐܒܘܢ Abwun our father

ܕܒܫܡܝܐ D’B’Shmaya in heaven

ܢܬܩܕܫ NitQadesh hallowed be

ܫܡܟ Shemakh thy name

ܬܐܬܐ Tetha come

ܡܠܟܘܬܟ Malkuthakh thy kingdom

ܢܗܘܐ Nihway be done

ܨܒܝܢܟ tsabekhin thy will

ܐܝܟܢܐ Eikhanukh as

ܕܒܫܡܝܐ D’B’Shmaya in heaven

ܐܦ Ap so ܒܐܪܥܐ B’Ara’a on earth

ܗܒ hib give

ܠܢ lan us

ܠܚܡܐ Lakhma the bread

ܕܤܘܢܩܢܢ D’Seyonchanan of our need

7 ܝܘܡܢܐ Yumana this day

ܘܫܒܘܩ W’Shabuq and forgive

ܠܢ Lan us

ܚܘܒܝܢ Khubayn our offences

ܐܝܟܢܐ Eikhana as

ܕܐܦ D’Ap also

ܚܢܢ Khenan we

ܫܒܩܢ Sh’Beqan forgave

ܠܚܝܒܝܢ L’Khanawin those who have offended us

ܘܐܠ U’La and not

ܬܥܠܢ Tellin bring us

ܠܢܤܝܘܢܐ L’Nisyuna into trial

ܐܐܠ Ela but

ܦܨܢ Pesan deliver us

ܡܢ Min from

ܒܝܫܐ Beesha the evil one

"Thy Kingdom come" seems indeed closer to Jesus' Gospel "the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" than "May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest."

But if you have other reliable sources that confirm that what's written in that "thenazareneway" post is not just a creation of the author, I'll consider them!

Edited December 6, 2017 by listener24