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Quasar93

Who and What are the Elect ?

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On 12/26/2017 at 7:47 AM, Diaste said:

And that's what you have to pick on when Matt 24 clearly states a gathering after the trib? When all three disciples sat and listened to this same sermon? When Luke recorded the same timelines? When intellectual honesty would remain in context reconciling the texts? Anyone can make rhetorical statements based on cursory, thin examination. 

But again. As you wish. That's your prerogative. Claim the win as well. You'll see. When you see the beast rise and the Temple construction underway, message me. I'll be here.

It has nothing to do with claiming the win nor having the last word. It's actually about understanding the things you read having clear knowledge what the bible teaches. Promote what the bible actually say, scrutinize scripture thoroughly being lead to conclusions following what the text actually say without speculation and drawing hasty preconceived conclusions of what it clearly does not teach.

All 3 discourses are not identical. They were given by Jesus at different times at different locations recorded by different apostles on prophecies about different groups of people while addressing different audiences.

Matthew 24:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

 

Mark 13:1-4 New King James Version (NKJV)

13 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

 

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13:

1) Jesus left the temple.

2) The discourse was given privately at the Mount of Olives.

3) The apostles with Jesus at the Mount of Olives were Peter James John and Andrew. Luke was not with them.

 

Luke 21:1-7 New King James Version (NKJV)

21 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. So He said, “Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had.”

Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

 

In Luke 21:

1) Jesus never left the temple.

2) Jesus was asked when will these be while still in the temple.

3) The discourse was given openly in the temple with a larger audience and recorded by Luke.

In summary, Luke's discourse is not an Olivet Discourse. It wasn't given nor recorded at the Mt of Olives. It was given at a different time, at a different location to a different group of audience. 

 

=====================================================

 

1) In Matthew's and Mark's discourse, the word elect is mentioned 3 times. Not once are the elects spoken of in Luke's discourse. How is it that God's chosen people: His elects are not even mentioned in Luke's discourse?

2) Why is the Abomination of Desolation only mentioned in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and not in Luke 21? Why are those in Matthew 24 and Mark told to flee when they see the AoD standing in the holy place while in Luke 21, these people are told to flee when they see armies surrounding Jerusalem? These people are told to look for armies instead.

Here's your hint. Those in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are the elects of Israel, Jews who will participate in the temple ceremonies such animal sacrifices and will be at the temple. Those people in Luke 21 are new gentile Christians living further away from Jerusalem in Israel.

3) In Matthew's and Mark's discourse, they're looking for Jesus: Matthew 24:23-27, Mark 13:21-23. But this is not covered in Luke 21. No one here is looking for Jesus after they fled in Luke 21.

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Jesus gave two dire warnings warning these people. First to flee when they see the Abomination of Desolation, and secondly, not to look for Him after they flee as false Christs will appear.   

Once they fled in time, they'll save their physical lives. But if they follow a false Christ and take the mark of the beast, they lose their soul. This is critical! These looking for Jesus could lose their soul! But Luke only warned these people to flee. Why is the most critical warning not even mentioned in Luke's discourse? Why are these group of people in Luke 21 not looking for Jesus after they had fled to safety?

4) In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, this group of people will be gathered to Jerusalem after the tribulation. In Luke 21, these people will not be gathered. It's not mentioned in Luke 21.

5) In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Jesus is addressing and giving warnings to the Jews, the elects of Israel. He uses the words like "you" and "your flight" talking to them while describing them. 

Matthew 24:19-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

 

Mark 13:17-23 New King James Version (NKJV)

17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

 

But in Luke 21, Jesus is using a third-person point of view. The is a message to the third-person about another group of people, the Jews in Israel.

Notice after Jesus did NOT say "and pray that your flight may not be in the winter" in Luke 21 a He did in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 after saying "woe to those who are pregnant and nursing babies?"

But instead He said there will be wrath upon "this people" and continued with "And they"

Clearly this message He gives in Luke 21 is not about them whom He has given. W know these things that will happen will come upon the Jewish people. 

Those people He's talking to in Luke 21 are the gentiles living in Israel at the time of the end who become Christians. He even goes on speaking about the gentiles in the same verse. Luke 21 is a message for them. If I had to guess, I believe He's talking to the Palestinians living in the West Bank who will become Christians during the tribulation and because of the AoD, they too will be endanger if they don't flee in time. 

Luke 21:23-24 New King James Version (NKJV)

23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

Those being gathered after the tribulation are His elects plus the surviving Jews that were not sealed because God always gathers the Jewish people home. The people in Luke 21 His message was for are not the elects. The only way to be an elect if left behind in the tribulation and later end up reigning with Christ in the millennium is 1) Be Sealed. This is only for the 144,000 of Israel. 2) Reject the Mark of the Beast, do not follow the Beast and be beheaded as mentioned in Revelation 20:4. 

Five very significant differences differentiating two separate groups of people. Under scrutiny, definitely not the same discourse.

 

Edited by Psalms37:4
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On 12/26/2017 at 1:34 PM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Those who use "Yahweh" for Jesus Christ are deceiving and should not be allowed on this forum  

Yep. He did say many will come in My name and deceive many. Many are surely using His name and also claim to follow Him.

They've certainly accepted Christ as their savior, just not their Lord. Wait till they find out they can't have one without the other. 

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13 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

It has nothing to do with claiming the win nor having the last word. It's actually about understanding the things you read having clear knowledge what the bible teaches. Promote what the bible actually say, scrutinize scripture thoroughly being lead to conclusions following what the text actually say without speculation and drawing hasty preconceived conclusions of what it clearly does not teach.

All 3 discourses are not identical. They were given by Jesus at different times at different locations recorded by different apostles on prophecies about different groups of people while addressing different audiences.

Matthew 24:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

24 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

 

Mark 13:1-4 New King James Version (NKJV)

13 Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

 

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13:

1) Jesus left the temple.

2) The discourse was given privately at the Mount of Olives.

3) The apostles with Jesus at the Mount of Olives were Peter James John and Andrew. Luke was not with them.

 

Luke 21:1-7 New King James Version (NKJV)

21 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. So He said, “Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had.”

Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

 

In Luke 21:

1) Jesus never left the temple.

2) Jesus was asked when will these be while still in the temple.

3) The discourse was given openly in the temple with a larger audience and recorded by Luke.

In summary, Luke's discourse is not an Olivet Discourse. It wasn't given nor recorded at the Mt of Olives. It was given at a different time, at a different location to a different group of audience. 

 

=====================================================

 

1) In Matthew's and Mark's discourse, the word elect is mentioned 3 times. Not once are the elects spoken of in Luke's discourse. How is it that God's chosen people: His elects are not even mentioned in Luke's discourse?

2) Why is the Abomination of Desolation only mentioned in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and not in Luke 21? Why are those in Matthew 24 and Mark told to flee when they see the AoD standing in the holy place while in Luke 21, these people are told to flee when they see armies surrounding Jerusalem? These people are told to look for armies instead.

Here's your hint. Those in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are the elects of Israel, Jews who will participate in the temple ceremonies such animal sacrifices and will be at the temple. Those people in Luke 21 are new gentile Christians living further away from Jerusalem in Israel.

3) In Matthew's and Mark's discourse, they're looking for Jesus: Matthew 24:23-27, Mark 13:21-23. But this is not covered in Luke 21. No one here is looking for Jesus after they fled in Luke 21.

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Jesus gave two dire warnings warning these people. First to flee when they see the Abomination of Desolation, and secondly, not to look for Him after they flee as false Christs will appear.   

Once they fled in time, they'll save their physical lives. But if they follow a false Christ and take the mark of the beast, they lose their soul. This is critical! These looking for Jesus could lose their soul! But Luke only warned these people to flee. Why is the most critical warning not even mentioned in Luke's discourse? Why are these group of people in Luke 21 not looking for Jesus after they had fled to safety?

4) In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, this group of people will be gathered to Jerusalem after the tribulation. In Luke 21, these people will not be gathered. It's not mentioned in Luke 21.

5) In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Jesus is addressing and giving warnings to the Jews, the elects of Israel. He uses the words like "you" and "your flight" talking to them while describing them. 

Matthew 24:19-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

 

Mark 13:17-23 New King James Version (NKJV)

17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

 

But in Luke 21, Jesus is using a third-person point of view. The is a message to the third-person about another group of people, the Jews in Israel.

Notice after Jesus did NOT say "and pray that your flight may not be in the winter" in Luke 21 a He did in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 after saying "woe to those who are pregnant and nursing babies?"

But instead He said there will be wrath upon "this people" and continued with "And they"

Clearly this message He gives in Luke 21 is not about them whom He has given. W know these things that will happen will come upon the Jewish people. 

Those people He's talking to in Luke 21 are the gentiles living in Israel at the time of the end who become Christians. He even goes on speaking about the gentiles in the same verse. Luke 21 is a message for them. If I had to guess, I believe He's talking to the Palestinians living in the West Bank who will become Christians during the tribulation and because of the AoD, they too will be endanger if they don't flee in time. 

Luke 21:23-24 New King James Version (NKJV)

23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

Those being gathered after the tribulation are His elects plus the surviving Jews that were not sealed because God always gathers the Jewish people home. The people in Luke 21 His message was for are not the elects. The only way to be an elect if left behind in the tribulation and later end up reigning with Christ in the millennium is 1) Be Sealed. This is only for the 144,000 of Israel. 2) Reject the Mark of the Beast, do not follow the Beast and be beheaded as mentioned in Revelation 20:4. 

Five very significant differences differentiating two separate groups of people. Under scrutiny, definitely not the same discourse.

 

Very impressive. Patience, you'll see brother. I'll be here when you need to talk.

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