LightShinesInTheDarkness Posted January 22, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 426 Content Per Day: 0.19 Reputation: 398 Days Won: 3 Joined: 01/20/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2018 (edited) By my observation, there are two main camps, regarding the issue of legalism: On the right there are those who believe that obedience to Jesus' commandments is more or less optional, and automatic---that if one is a true Christian, he or she will just automatically obey God, because he or she wants to, and because he or she is so thankful to God for saving him or her. Unfortunately, these beliefs do not agree with what the Bible teaches, (or with what reality proves). We can choose not to obey Jesus---we have that "freedom"; we can keep the commands we want as we want to, when we want to, and disregard or change the ones we don't like or that aren't convenient to our own desires or ambitions (as so many Christians do), justifying it however we may---but there are consequences: Not just the chastening of the Lord, or the potential to forfeit our salvation if we persist in deliberate sin against Him--which the Scriptures teach that we can do--but also the loss of eternal rewards, of spiritual blessings in the here and now, and a poor relationship with the Lord. The Bible simply doesn't teach that Christians effortlessly or automatically obey God; and reality proves otherwise to anyone who is honest. We do have the God-given desire to please Him, but we still have to choose to obey---daily---and that choice often requires self-denial and doing things that we'd rather not; and sometimes it requires much prayer and personal struggle and pain. No honest Christian would say that he or she always wants to obey God or choose what pleases Him---or is even concerned with what pleases Him much of the time, in the case of many Christians, unfortunately. (Evidence: They don't even bother to read their Bibles to find out what He actually commands or desires; or if they do, and they don't care for what it says, they skip around it or twist it, and just don't do it.) Not to be unduly cynical, but a lot of the Christians of this camp (the anti-legalist, "free-in-Christ" camp) are really living to please themselves, because they don't think God's commands are that important; they're just helpful hints, with no serious consequences for not keeping them. They focus on the scriptures that allow them to live the way they want to, and overlook or try to change or make excuses for not living the others. And their preoccupation with and emphasis on their "freedom" in Christ is contrary to what the New Testament teaches. We are not "free" in Christ; we were bought with a price. We have a Master. A loving one, and a kind one, but a Master nonetheless, to whom we must each give an account, and who we are supposed to be living to please and to glorify; and there are serious consequences for not obeying Him. A curious irony of this position is that the very Christians who will call you "judgmental" for honestly and lovingly pointing out the fact that they're not living according to the teachings of the New Testament will tell you that Christians who choose to sin aren't really Christians. So somehow (according to these), it's judgmental to tell someone to obey the Lord, but it's not judgmental to decide who is saved and who isn't based on whether or not they sin? All Christians sin sometimes, and all Christians can choose to sin. How much sin does it take to be a "fake" Christian? A few flirts with pornography in secret now and then? Or even a secret addiction to it? A couple of fights with a spouse? Being in credit card debt for too long? Where is this jury of sinless "true" Christians who decides who is "fake" and who isn't based on whether they sin or not? Because (according to these) true Christians don't choose to sin, or to continue in sin of some kind even when they know it's wrong---like gluttony or pornography. They always obey the Lord, because they just love Him so much, and are so thankful for eternal life; and because it's natural and automatic. So you're "free" in Christ to be everything but human. Because if you sin, you're fake. (But if you insist upon obedience to the Lord, you're a judgmental, hypocritical legalist.) "No need to be so concerned about obedience; just enjoy your freedom in Christ. But don't sin, because if you do, you'll prove that you're not really saved. And don't talk about sin either, because it makes us uncomfortable." (Well, according to the Bible it's whether we have the Spirit of God living in us that determines whether we are truly born-again or not, which God knows, and which each of us must know about ourselves---not whether a person ever sins or is living the way we think they should.) And then, on the left, are the people who are orthodox about things that aren't Scriptural, or who want Christians to keep the law of Moses (which is only for unsaved Jews). "We must obey God," they say; and then they point you to the ten commandments and the rest of the Mosaic law. (We have the ten commandments, but they're not in the Old Testament, but in the New, as Jesus amplified them and gave them to Christians. If we were to keep the ten commandments as they are written in the Old Testament, we would be breaking the commands of Christ in the New. We could commit mental adultery, as long as we didn't engage in the physical kind. We could be idolaters in heart by being covetous so long as we didn't worship a physical idol. We could be angry with and insult our brother as long as we didn't physically murder him.) Or they insist upon calling God by a certain Hebrew name, or using a particular version of the Bible, or on rituals and special clothes and special days, or man-made traditions and doctrines; and they put religion in the place of God-given faith in disputable matters and how to apply His commands to our lives; and they tell you that you can and must be sinless, or have to work your way into heaven to be saved, as various religions of the world teach. Both sides are wrong. (Stick to the teachings of the New Testament, obey Jesus with an honest and good heart, set your heart to do what pleases Him, daily, and you'll be neither unduly or unrighteously legalistic nor foolishly free. ) Edited January 25, 2018 by LightShinesInTheDarkness Clarity, spacing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted January 22, 2018 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2018 3 hours ago, LadyKay said: Well your telling us we must follow God's laws so I thought maybe you did follow all the Old Testament Laws. Show where I , or Jesus, or God, (in Scripture), or anyone said it is best to obey God instead of satan, please. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted January 22, 2018 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Justin Adams said: When we are just spirits floating around, then we can be altogether doing stuff non-physical. "When" is never. At least not for millenia (or aeons, or super long time) and longer, until all creation is rolled up and dissolved.... and maybe not even then, from anything known from Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted January 22, 2018 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Yowm said: Most legalists draw out OT laws and try keeping them in their own strength So far as I've seen in years here, and more years of posts searching, no one has shown this (that anyone of the followers of Jesus is trying to keep them in their own strength), nor has anyone claimed to be doing so. All the fuss so far seems to be about false claims made by some who want to disobey God, who are willing to obey the flesh or carnality or the world system willingly or wittingly or unwillingly or unwittingly, and they don't want to be held to any accountability at all by God nor by man. They seem to be claiming they can live like they want (in the flesh) and do what they want (in the world), and not suffer for that, directly contrary to all Scripture, particularly what you posted: this >>> 1 hour ago, Yowm said: On the other hand the born again Christians have the moral law written afresh on their hearts and 'law keeping' comes from within, tablets of flesh, not from tablets of stone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted January 22, 2018 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2018 4 hours ago, LadyKay said: Well I don't call people legalistic who don't agree with me. I may call them wrong though. What do legalistic people call you ? (quotes if you have any, please) What do the Apostles in Scripture call you ? (quotes please) Are 'legalistic' people right (1) sometimes (2) often (3) rarely (4) never (5) always ? Are the Apostles in Scripture right (1) sometimes (2) often (3) rarely (4) never (5) always ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heleadethme Posted January 22, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,371 Content Per Day: 1.36 Reputation: 3,268 Days Won: 5 Joined: 07/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2018 Reciting my lessons as I happened to be reading some applicable scripture this morning........if we just simply follow Jesus, we are upholding/establishing the Law..........simply because all of the Law pointed to Jesus and was a kind of picture or testimony of His perfect righteousness........so having faith in Christ and following Him is HOW we establish/validate/uphold the Law. Not by way of following the Law as such, but rather by following the One who the Law testified about and pointed to. Because following Jesus is HOW we are establishing and not making void the Law. And who is led by the Spirit are His children, not who keeps the letter of the Law. The Law and the prophets that testified and pointed to Jesus were only UNTIL Jesus came (or really until John the Baptist who was preparing the way for Jesus through repentance). This is why Jesus was the end of the Law, because He was the only one who could fulfill it in and by His own person, since He is the one who the Law was about. See what that means is that He fulfilled the Law simply by being the only Righteous One who the Law was declaring and foretelling of. And so this is why having faith in Him we thus validate/establish/uphold the Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted January 22, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2018 23 minutes ago, simplejeff said: "When" is never. At least not for millenia (or aeons, or super long time) and longer, until all creation is rolled up and dissolved.... and maybe not even then, from anything known from Scripture. That was tongue in cheek, pointing out that when we are purely spiritual, then we can claim we keep the commandments in spirit. But since we are fleshly and carnal, we like to find reasons for our presumed disobedience, pretending we keep physical commandments in a spiritual manner. Like: OH, I realize that it is good not to commit adultery (in the flesh) as I might get caught and shown to be a carnal - physical sinner. But if I pretend spiritual compliance, I am 'free' to let my mind wander anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted January 22, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Heleadethme said: This is why Jesus was the end of the Law Scripture can also mean He was the Completion of the Law. Not that the law is of no account, else why would Saul (Paul) say that he upholds the law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heleadethme Posted January 22, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,371 Content Per Day: 1.36 Reputation: 3,268 Days Won: 5 Joined: 07/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, simplejeff said: What do legalistic people call you ? (quotes if you have any, please) What do the Apostles in Scripture call you ? (quotes please) Are 'legalistic' people right (1) sometimes (2) often (3) rarely (4) never (5) always ? Are the Apostles in Scripture right (1) sometimes (2) often (3) rarely (4) never (5) always ? I don't know how others define the term legalism, but how I understand it is speaking of the leaven of the Pharisees........serving in an old way of the letter rather than the new way of the Spirit. That can apply not just to the Law but to all the writings of the new testament as well, since Jesus was speaking to His own followers, the church in other words, when He warned against the leaven of the Pharisees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplejeff Posted January 22, 2018 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 12 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,689 Content Per Day: 2.39 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 20 Joined: 06/30/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Justin Adams said: But since we are fleshly and carnal, Who are you supposing to speak for here ? Who is willingly and wittingly fleshly and carnal , ongoing, and not born again as Scripture says ? 2 minutes ago, Justin Adams said: we like to find reasons for our presumed disobedience, pretending we keep physical commandments in a spiritual manner. No need to use the word "presumed". Seems possible no need to use the word "pretending" either. For example, who has been pretending to keep physical commandments today / last week/ ever . Who is there who was not disobedient ? (i.e. nothing presumed - it is actual disobedience for all men) .... 3 minutes ago, Justin Adams said: when we are purely spiritual, then we can claim we keep the commandments in spirit. I think this is closer to Scripture - and needs to be verified by Scripture that Jesus' Apostles and Jesus' followers willingly and wittingly and joyously seek to follow Jesus and to do as He Says. (instead of continuing to do what the devil wants) . Note what Scripture says about who is able to accomplish this in the disciples (they cannot accomplish this themselves, according to Jesus, needing instead to rely on the Father in Heaven to accomplish this, as He Pleases). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts