Is the Pope infallible..?

[georgesbluegirl]

But, like someone else tried to point out earlier, the pope can only speak ex cathedra to assert matters of church dogma that can't be questioned, and it's only been used twice. I assure you, I've never met a Catholic (and I am one) who would tell you that the Pope himself is infallible. Just look at the Middle Ages!

[Guest stranger]

I think you all missed the point...

There is no ordination of sinful man as priests in the bible after the Levites !!!

Also the new covenant is explicitly ONLY with Israel to save the first fruits of redemption [as confirmed by Jesus himself in Rev 7:3-8] , I srael was NOT rejected for ever because they failed the old covenant, it merely necessitated a NEW testament with God, an UNCONDITIONAL one in which God just takes Israel to be His priesthood :-

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

ALL the priests of the new covenant are thus of Israel, and they are only ordained when Jesus returns, and they are then made INCORRUPTIBLE SPIRIT, not sinful men ...

AND they live as sinless images of Jesus in THIS life BEFORE becoming priests of the order of Melchizedek of whom Jesus is high priest...

The only mention of human sinful man priests apart from the Levites of the now old covenant with Israel is this... these then are what scripture prophesies are our modern 'christian priesthood :-

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Pretty terrifying realisation when you count how many men elect themselves priests to Satan's false image of Christ and the gospel and God, but again it is prophesied, it should not come as a surprise ... the only surprise is how many SAY they believe the bible, but ignore Jesus' prophecies in it :-

Rev 13:3 ....and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast

As if that weren't more than most modern 'christians' could bear to hear, there is confirmation from God that they are deluded by Him and will die and only be saved at the second resurrection which they believe is for 'unbelievers' who are 'damned' for 'missing the bus to heaven'

Fortunately for them God has other plans , to save all men - ironic that this phrase is what 'christianss think THEY ARE DOING ,rather than that it will be DOBNE UNTO THEM in the new earth :-

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

and indeed to save all creation, angels too :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

It gets worse for the false message ogf the churches as one actually reads scripture, God actually deludes most men very deliberately for His purpose in having created them :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

And the reason that God created man is not unrelated to this explanation of the previous 'mystery' of why a perfect God created evil and iniquity , as exlained in 2 Thess 2, Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14 :-

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

It is indeed ironic that 'christians' cannot BEAR to read such things in their own scripture , but a whole army of priests is engaged in trying to make the scripture say other tahn it does to soothsay over a billion deceived peple...

A salutary PROOF of Jesus' prophecies that christians mostly cannot bear to hear because it says God's truth about what they really are ...

[Assisi]

I think you all missed the point...

There is no ordination of sinful man as priests in the bible after the Levites !!!

Paul was a sinful man---1Cr 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

St Paul himself describes his own ministry as a priesthood:

Romans 15:

15 But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God

16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

17 In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to boast of my work for God.

If St Paul considers himself to be a priest, anyone who DENIES that "Christian" ministry is a priestly ministry has rebuked and disowned St. Paul!

[vox]

Infallibility...

Exactly what does the word 'Infallible' mean when referring to the Bishop of Rome? There are so many misconceptions as to just what it means to others, especially to our Protestant brothers and sisters. Here are some answers we have received:

1. The Pope cannot tell a lie.

2. The Pope cannot sin.

3. The Pope cannot make a mistake.

4. Everything the Pope says is the absolute truth.

5. The Pope is perfect in every way.

And the correct answer is...

'None' of the above.

If I were told to believe any of those answers, I would have second thoughts about 'Papal Infallibility' myself.

Substitute the name 'Jesus Christ' for 'the Pope' in all the answers above and the correct answer to all of them is a resounding 'YES'. The Pope is the human visible head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ on earth, just as Jesus Christ is the invisible head.

The correct definition of Papal infallibility (ex Cathedra), as defined by the First Vatican Council (1870), is:

"The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra-that is, when in discharge of the office of pastor and teacher of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be held by the universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals; and therefore such definitions are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of consent of the Church."

Condensed, this means, a Papal infallible statement, when all conditions are met, has freedom from error in teaching the universal Church in matters of faith or morals.

So, is the Bishop of Rome, the Pope a sinner?

Yes, we all are sinners. He is no different from the rest of us in that respect.

"But when Simon Peter saw this, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, 'Depart from me for I am a sinful man, O Lord'

...And Jesus said to Simon, 'Do not be afraid; henceforth thou shall catch men'." Luke 5:8-10.

Now what about the authors of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter and others? Were they infallible people or were they sinners? As I have already shown, Peter admitted that he was a sinner, and we all know the story of Saul who became Paul. We know they were all sinners. How then, could fallible men write such inerrant documents as the books they authored? It is because they were guided by the Holy Spirit. GOD prevented them from writing error. GOD is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If GOD prevented these men from writing error, why then could He not do the same for the successor of St. Peter today?

The gift of infallibility was given by GOD to a very select few:

In Luke 10:16, Jesus said,

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

That verse is a verse of authority and it is a verse of infallibility as well. It is basic rule of Scripture interpretation to always discern Scripture verses in proper context. So, to put Luke 10:16 in its proper context, we must look at to whom Jesus spoke when He said those words of authority and of infallibility. He spoke to His disciples only, the Apostles, and not to anyone else.

Consequently, the only persons authorized to preach with authority and infallibility are the Apostles, and subsequently those who followed them in a long line of succession, the Papal office and the office of the Bishops (Psalms 109:8, Acts 1:20).

For complete text please go to: edit****

Edited May 16, 2005 by Dr. Luke

[Fiosh]

Infallibility...

Exactly what does the word 'Infallible' mean when referring to the Bishop of Rome? There are so many misconceptions as to just what it means to others, especially to our Protestant brothers and sisters. Here are some answers we have received:

1. The Pope cannot tell a lie.

2. The Pope cannot sin.

3. The Pope cannot make a mistake.

4. Everything the Pope says is the absolute truth.

5. The Pope is perfect in every way.

And the correct answer is...

'None' of the above.

If I were told to believe any of those answers, I would have second thoughts about 'Papal Infallibility' myself.

Substitute the name 'Jesus Christ' for 'the Pope' in all the answers above and the correct answer to all of them is a resounding 'YES'. The Pope is the human visible head of the Church, the Vicar of Christ on earth, just as Jesus Christ is the invisible head.

The correct definition of Papal infallibility (ex Cathedra), as defined by the First Vatican Council (1870), is:

"The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra-that is, when in discharge of the office of pastor and teacher of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be held by the universal Church, by the divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals; and therefore such definitions are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of consent of the Church."

Condensed, this means, a Papal infallible statement, when all conditions are met, has freedom from error in teaching the universal Church in matters of faith or morals.

So, is the Bishop of Rome, the Pope a sinner?

Yes, we all are sinners. He is no different from the rest of us in that respect.

"But when Simon Peter saw this, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, 'Depart from me for I am a sinful man, O Lord'

...And Jesus said to Simon, 'Do not be afraid; henceforth thou shall catch men'." Luke 5:8-10.

Now what about the authors of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter and others? Were they infallible people or were they sinners? As I have already shown, Peter admitted that he was a sinner, and we all know the story of Saul who became Paul. We know they were all sinners. How then, could fallible men write such inerrant documents as the books they authored? It is because they were guided by the Holy Spirit. GOD prevented them from writing error. GOD is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If GOD prevented these men from writing error, why then could He not do the same for the successor of St. Peter today?

The gift of infallibility was given by GOD to a very select few:

In Luke 10:16, Jesus said,

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

That verse is a verse of authority and it is a verse of infallibility as well. It is basic rule of Scripture interpretation to always discern Scripture verses in proper context. So, to put Luke 10:16 in its proper context, we must look at to whom Jesus spoke when He said those words of authority and of infallibility. He spoke to His disciples only, the Apostles, and not to anyone else.

Consequently, the only persons authorized to preach with authority and infallibility are the Apostles, and subsequently those who followed them in a long line of succession, the Papal office and the office of the Bishops (Psalms 109:8, Acts 1:20).

Great job, vox! Clear, concise, correct and convincing!

Edited May 16, 2005 by Dr. Luke

[Leonard]

Correct, yes. Convincing, no. Even John Paul II said infallability needed to be placed back 'where it had always resided,' in the House of Bishops!

Much as I agree most Protestants are tilting at windmills when they attack what they imagine the doctrine of Papal Infallability to be, I must also say that I do NOT consider the Roman Pontiff infallable, even in an ex cathedra statement.

[Fiosh]

Correct, yes.  Convincing, no.  Even John Paul II said infallability needed to be placed back 'where it had always resided,' in the House of Bishops!

Much as I agree most Protestants are tilting at windmills when they attack what they imagine the doctrine of Papal Infallability to be, I must also say that I do NOT consider the Roman Pontiff infallable, even in an ex cathedra statement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, Leonard. Can you give me the context of that statement of John Paul II. Since Papal infallibility is a doctrine of the RCC; and popes never change doctrine, I'm sure there's more to this story. Also, there is as aspect of infallibiilty that applies to the bishops when acting as "one". I'd have to look that up for the details, but it already exists as doctrine.

You don't consider the Pope infallible when he speaks "ex cathedra???!!!!'

Guess that's one reason you're not Catholic, eh?

Love ya anyway,

Fiosh

[Leonard]

Correct, yes.

[Fiosh]

Correct, yes.

[vox]

Great job, vox!  Clear, concise, correct and convincing! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Benedicite Fiosh, thanks but I didn't write that, it is Written by Bob Stanley from The Catholic Treasure Chest, a Catholic apologetic site, the link provided has been deleted.