MMAlex Posted March 18, 2018 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 26 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2018 17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother These are some controversial passages which atheists and Jehova Witnesses will turn to. How do you defend these if you believe Jesus is God and that we are saved though Grace but not works? God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne Posted March 18, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 107 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 3,820 Content Per Day: 1.30 Reputation: 4,806 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/31/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2018 Non-believers [and I include Jehovah's Witnesses in that group] love to find passages to pick apart. Even if you gave them the perfect answer, they won't change their minds because they aren't looking to. They are looking to charge the Bible with lying and to kill its credibility as the word of God. So, to me, answers to questions like this are for believers or honest seekers. It helps to make our belief and understanding sure. My thoughts? The poor guy asked the wrong question and gave the wrong answer to Jesus' question. He asked, "What can I do.....?" Well, nothing. We cannot save ourselves or justify ourselves. Jesus starts with giving him a list of to-do's. That's what he has asked for. He goes through the human-to-human relationships of the 10 Commandments and includes the Commandment of loving God. The young guy gives the wrong response - he says that he has never disobeyed these rules. Of course he has. No one is sinless. Now Jesus gets to the heart of the matter. He already knew the young man's heart that was entrenched in morality but not faith. He loved the young man the Bible says. Now he says, "OK, sell all you have and give to the poor and follow Me." This was NOT about works. This was about faith. "Follow Me!" When we follow Christ, we do "give up" things that we thought made life important and we do obey his commandments. The rich young ruler started at the wrong end of the question. He started with behavior changes. Jesus took him through that to the real matter. Follow Jesus Christ. Behaviors will line up AFTER that. He went away miserable: He already thought he was "good". He already justified himself that way. He wasn't going to give up anything. Ergo, he wasn't going to follow Christ in faith. This story goes from end to beginning of the truth. But my guess is that non-believers will not see that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4LdKHVCzRDj2 Posted March 18, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,453 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 1,453 Days Won: 6 Joined: 11/02/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1991 Share Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, MMAlex said: How do you defend these if you believe Jesus is God and that we are saved though Grace but not works? "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men." - Philippians 2:5-7 1 hour ago, MMAlex said: How do you defend these if you believe Jesus is God and that we are saved though Grace but not works? We are saved by grace and not works because all we have to do is to accept the gift of the Holy Spirit by repenting (indeed) and turn to God, by believing in Him. "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38 "but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance." - Acts 26:20 All subsequent change in the individual is a work of the Spirit. If you see no change, then high chances are he/she believed in vain. "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." - John 5:24 Glory to God! Amen. Edited March 18, 2018 by 4LdKHVCzRDj2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 18, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,189 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,467 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 18, 2018 5 hours ago, MMAlex said: 17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother These are some controversial passages which atheists and Jehova Witnesses will turn to. How do you defend these if you believe Jesus is God and that we are saved though Grace but not works? God Bless Jesus knew He was God John 8:58-59 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. KJV The disciples knew Jesus was God Acts 1:2-3 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: KJV All will know Jesus is God... even if now they deny the truth of The Scriptures Matt 28:18 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. KJV Rev 20:11-15 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. KJV Notice the two books ... The book of life -and- The book of works note these 'the dead' were being judged according to their works... Eph 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: This above is the book of life at the great white throne of judgement This below is the book of works at the great white throne of judgement 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. KJV 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted March 22, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) This is how i would respond to their questions.. Matthew 19 16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” Here we see a man whose foundation belief is achieving eternity with God by good Works. He is asking Jesus what He can do to make it into eternity with God. Of course this is imposable for any man to justify his own place in eternity with God. So Jesus response to this man must be understood from this starting point of the conversation between the two. Now lets go to the next verse: Matthew 19 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Remember this man was a Jew who looked upon Jesus as being a teacher a rabbi, He did not know that Jesus was The Word of God, God made flesh. Jesus was Good. But Jesus knew this man did not know who Jesus was so His reply was teaching the man Never to call another human being Good because no man was good. Only God is good. So then Jesus starts to convict the man of his inability to earn eternity by his own righteousness, We continue: Matthew 19 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’[h] and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?” Now of course he is wrong in his reply, the man may have genuinely believed he was keeping all the commandments but as we know Jesus declared that even if you look at another woman with lust you are an adulterer and if you hate someone you are a murderer. So Jesus looking into the man knowing his weaknesses just picked something he would not be able to do. AND at the same time revealed that a man must be Perfect if he wants to have eternity with God. Something No man can achieve. The Scriptures continue: Matthew 19 21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. Can you imagine how crushed the young man was at that time? He went away knowing he could not justify himself before God because God requires Perfection which no man can achieve. That young man was now "set up" to receive the Love of the Truth of the Gospel. I imagine one day him hearing peter preaching and leaping for joy. I hope he did. But this in not where this episode ends the disciples at the time where also under the false impression that eternity with God was earned by good works and works of the law. They where dumbstruck by what Jesus said the chapter continues: Matthew 19 23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” They did say Who then can be saved but they where still thinking that being saved was something that was still earned, paid for by man to God in the currency of good works and works of the Law. They knew that Jesus said to the man that he had to be perfect. Then Jesus gave them a definitive answer in the next verse: Matthew 19 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Jesus both made it clear that it was Impossible for men to gain eternity by their own efforts. And confirmed that mankinds Salvation could only be achieved by the Gods Works. God has done this by providing Atonement to cover mans imperfection through the death and resurrection of the Messiah Jesus. Edited March 26, 2018 by Adstar wrong words used.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin P Posted March 22, 2018 Group: Newbie Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 1 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/22/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) Perhaps we should take Jesus at his word, and see where that takes us. Otherwise we have to admit that Jesus is dissembling - offering life where he knows there is no hope of life. It should be noted that there is nothing in the man's word that suggests he is boasting - saying he is proud of his works before God. On the contrary, he seems to be saying that even though he has always done these things to the best of his ability, he feels that something is still lacking. This would explain why Mark says "Jesus loved him". It should also noted that obedience in the right spirit is an act of faith. "Blessed are those who hear the word of God, and put it into practice". Jesus' response "if you want to be perfect ..." is about leading the man to himself (ie Jesus). As in the gospel, and as in John6.45: It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. Edited March 22, 2018 by Martin P clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidden In Him Posted March 23, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 449 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 423 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/21/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/16/1964 Share Posted March 23, 2018 On 3/18/2018 at 12:39 PM, MMAlex said: 17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother These are some controversial passages which atheists and Jehova Witnesses will turn to. How do you defend these if you believe Jesus is God and that we are saved though Grace but not works? God Bless Greetings, Alex! The strongest description of New Testament grace that I have ever read personally came from a Messianic Jew, and his answer was that the grace of God (including the outpouring of the Holy Spirit) is bestowed upon us so that we might be empowered to walk in obedience. Seen from this perspective, the grace of God is not in conflict with such verses. Old Testament saint or New, Jew or Gentile, He calls us all to walk in obedience to Him. But His mercy is also new every morning, should we slip. He only asks that we get up and start striving for obedience once more, and lean upon His empowerment to fulfill His will in our lives. As for the rich man, he was under Old Testament law as a Jew at the time, so obedience to God for him involved keeping the Jewish law. In the New Covenant, the question simply becomes how much of that law is still required of New Testament believers, Jew or Gentile. I must confess I have no idea what atheists and Jehovahs Witnesses make of Jesus' words here, but those who are distant from God place all sorts of requirements upon men that are NOT of importance to Him, while neglecting to teach them the things that truly are. This has been that pattern of religious leaders who are distant from God for millennium now (Matthew 15:9-14). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rontiger Posted March 26, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 263 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 210 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/27/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2018 On 18/03/2018 at 1:39 PM, MMAlex said: 17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother These are some controversial passages which atheists and Jehova Witnesses will turn to. How do you defend these if you believe Jesus is God and that we are saved though Grace but not works? God Bless I was just explaining this verse to relatives(children) because I have other relatives who were lead to join a cult when they were children, 30 years ago- after their father died-and the cult misinterpreted this verse to convince them that Jesus was not God. But firstly , the truth we are saved by God's grace alone is made clear by Jesus's words in John 3:16 :"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." And John 6:29:"Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." The New Testament also says that the truly saved Christian will bear fruit. Now back to considering the oft misinterpreted Mark 10:18, in which Jesus asks the rich man why he calls Jesus good and then tells him only God is good. Here, Jesus is Not correcting the rich man. Jesus is happy that he called him good. He simply wanted the rich man to open his mind, think deeply and realize "why" or "what is the amazing reason" that he calls Jesus good-since only God is good. The most important thing to Jesus that a person can ever do is to understand, and adore, the truth that Jesus is God Almighty. That Jesus is not correcting rich man can be clearly seen when we read Jesus's words in John 10:11:"'I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.'" So we can see that according to Jesus only God is good; but since Jesus also declares that he,Jesus, is the good shepherd, we can see Jesus is really saying that he is God.(I'm just writing this last paragraph for the youth around the world.) All you sweet people of all nations around the world, please believe in Jesus Christ as your God and Savior. Jesus is the only way to live in heaven forever! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick jane Posted March 26, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 596 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 320 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/16/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1969 Share Posted March 26, 2018 2 hours ago, rontiger said: I was just explaining this verse to relatives(children) because I have other relatives who were lead to join a cult when they were children, 30 years ago- after their father died-and the cult misinterpreted this verse to convince them that Jesus was not God. But firstly , the truth we are saved by God's grace alone is made clear by Jesus's words in John 3:16 :"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." And John 6:29:"Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." The New Testament also says that the truly saved Christian will bear fruit. Now back to considering the oft misinterpreted Mark 10:18, in which Jesus asks the rich man why he calls Jesus good and then tells him only God is good. Here, Jesus is Not correcting the rich man. Jesus is happy that he called him good. He simply wanted the rich man to open his mind, think deeply and realize "why" or "what is the amazing reason" that he calls Jesus good-since only God is good. The most important thing to Jesus that a person can ever do is to understand, and adore, the truth that Jesus is God Almighty. That Jesus is not correcting rich man can be clearly seen when we read Jesus's words in John 10:11:"'I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.'" So we can see that according to Jesus only God is good; but since Jesus also declares that he,Jesus, is the good shepherd, we can see Jesus is really saying that he is God.(I'm just writing this last paragraph for the youth around the world.) All you sweet people of all nations around the world, please believe in Jesus Christ as your God and Savior. Jesus is the only way to live in heaven forever! Amen. Praise God !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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