Guest Butero Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 9 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: James is not talking about salvation. He is talking about works demonstrating faith. Sorry, but those who teaching trusting in works are not Christians. He is talking about salvation. Sorry, but those who are perverting scripture and claiming James is not talking about salvation are not Christians, but are false prophets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted April 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.85 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2018 ......and with your doctrine I could live a perfect life and at the last second before I die have an unclean thought and wind up in Hell because I did not have time to repent. This guy has never existed.It is ridiculous to think he ever will.Just like the murdering , child molesting OSAS Believer boogie- man.He has never and will never exist. It is ridiculous to think he ever will.OSAS theology has freed me—— not to rape and murder,but to be kind to others and to learn more about God.I must be doing something right.God has taught me the true meaning of Sabbathing.....I sincerely hope you discover that meaning also.Any works I have flow naturally, like fruit from a tree ( that rings a bell somehow).Those works did not save me....they do not keep me saved.That is legalism, or seeing how that word is not in the Bible, let’s judt call it “ Galationism or Judaism. God bless and happy Easter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: That claptrap is a pile of lies. Eternal Security is predicated on the genuineness of salvation and only applies to those who have been truly saved and have transformed heart. Salvation is a transformation, not merely being moved from one side of the of ledger to the other. If a person was never changed, they were never saved and Eternal Security has nothing to do with them. Works are fruit. If there is no fruit, there was no salvation. A person can trust in works, or they can trust in Christ, one or the other. Depending on works at any level is a denial of the sufficiency of Christ. This is claptrap and a pile of lies. There is no security in this doctrine. It is possible that a person can think they are saved and not be saved, and they are judged by their works. If they don't continue to live right or have a change after getting saved, they are said to have not really been saved. Works based. By the way, James says that both Abraham and Rahab were justified by works. You can lose your salvation. I gave scripture where God stated he can and has removed names out of the Book of Life. "Depending on works at any level" is not a denial of the sufficiency of Christ. That is another lie from the pits of hell. I know for a fact that the only way we are cleansed from sin is through the blood of Christ. It is not a simple matter of keeping ourselves saved. First, we must be saved through faith in Christ because a single sin would send us to hell. We all commit sins without realizing it all the time, which requires constant grace. If we do commit willful sins after getting saved, it is the same blood sacrifice Jesus made on the cross that is needed to restore us. It is not enough to simply start walking upright again. Confession must be made, so that argument is claptrap. Another thing I want to point out is that the OSAS doctrine is works based in that it is dependent on holding to a specific and pure faith doctrine. People generally get saved in response to an altar call, and don't have all their doctrine figured out at the time. They are simply told about the plan of salvation, and they accept or reject Christ. To claim they are not saved based on doctrinal points of view they come to after salvation creates a works based salvation, and once again shows their doctrine doesn't work. This creates the sin of falling from grace because of turning away from the pure grace doctrine. If you can lose salvation in that manner, unconditional eternal security is a lie. I got saved responding to a radio preacher's message, and knew very little about the Bible at the time. I formed my doctrinal views after years of reading and study. If I am not a Christian or am unsaved based on doctrine I formed after getting saved, there is no such thing as unconditional eternal security. You deny it based on those judgments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Blood Bought 1953 said: ......and with your doctrine I could live a perfect life and at the last second before I die have an unclean thought and wind up in Hell because I did not have time to repent. This guy has never existed.It is ridiculous to think he ever will.Just like the murdering , child molesting OSAS Believer boogie- man.He has never and will never exist. It is ridiculous to think he ever will.OSAS theology has freed me—— not to rape and murder,but to be kind to others and to learn more about God.I must be doing something right.God has taught me the true meaning of Sabbathing.....I sincerely hope you discover that meaning also.Any works I have flow naturally, like fruit from a tree ( that rings a bell somehow).Those works did not save me....they do not keep me saved.That is legalism, or seeing how that word is not in the Bible, let’s judt call it “ Galationism or Judaism. God bless and happy Easter! You didn't read my doctrine very clearly. That is not a willful sin. That is automatically under the blood covering. It is only willful or presumptuous sins that can cost you your salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said: ......and with your doctrine I could live a perfect life and at the last second before I die have an unclean thought and wind up in Hell because I did not have time to repent. This guy has never existed.It is ridiculous to think he ever will.Just like the murdering , child molesting OSAS Believer boogie- man.He has never and will never exist. It is ridiculous to think he ever will.OSAS theology has freed me—— not to rape and murder,but to be kind to others and to learn more about God.I must be doing something right.God has taught me the true meaning of Sabbathing.....I sincerely hope you discover that meaning also.Any works I have flow naturally, like fruit from a tree ( that rings a bell somehow).Those works did not save me....they do not keep me saved.That is legalism, or seeing how that word is not in the Bible, let’s judt call it “ Galationism or Judaism. God bless and happy Easter! If you will go over to the thread, "If a Christian commits suicide," under questions and answers, I give a very detailed explanation of the difference between willful or presumptuous sins and sins done in error. I give scripture to back everything up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 Just now, Butero said: This is claptrap and a pile of lies. There is no security in this doctrine. It is possible that a person can think they are saved and not be saved, and they are judged by their works. If someone is not genuinely saved, that is not the fault of eternal security. Quote By the way, James says that both Abraham and Rahab were justified by works. You can lose your salvation. I gave scripture where God stated he can and has removed names out of the Book of Life. Abrayam was justified by faith apart from works BEFORE the attempted sacrifice of Isaac. James is not talking about the justification by faith mentioned in Romans 3. James is talking about works demonstrating faith. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac proved his faithfulness to God. That is not when Abraham was saved. Abraham was saved decades before Isaac was born. Quote "Depending on works at any level" is not a denial of the sufficiency of Christ. That is another lie from the pits of hell. No, either your faith in 100% in Christ, and 0% in works, or else you are trusting in works. Salvation is Jesus +0. Quote I know for a fact that the only way we are cleansed from sin is through the blood of Christ. It is not a simple matter of keeping ourselves saved. First, we must be saved through faith in Christ because a single sin would send us to hell. We all commit sins without realizing it all the time, which requires constant grace. If we do commit willful sins after getting saved, it is the same blood sacrifice Jesus made on the cross that is needed to restore us. It is not enough to simply start walking upright again. Confession must be made, so that argument is claptrap. Which is just another way of saying that you're depending on works, ultimately to save you. Quote Another thing I want to point out is that the OSAS doctrine is works based in that it is dependent on holding to a specific and pure faith doctrine. No, it is not. Quote People generally get saved in response to an altar call, and don't have all their doctrine figured out at the time. They are simply told about the plan of salvation, and they accept or reject Christ. To claim they are not saved based on doctrinal points of view they come to after salvation creates a works based salvation, and once again shows their doctrine doesn't work. Genuineness of salvation does not depend on having all of doctrine of Scripture correct. Quote This creates the sin of falling from grace because of turning away from the pure grace doctrine. If you can lose salvation in that manner, unconditional eternal security is a lie. I got saved responding to a radio preacher's message, and knew very little about the Bible at the time. I formed my doctrinal views after years of reading and study. If I am not a Christian or am unsaved based on doctrine I formed after getting saved, there is no such thing as unconditional eternal security. You deny it based on those judgments. You clearly have made up in your mind, what I believe and are trying to argue against what you think, in your imagination, what I believe. You put the lie in my mouth, and then argue against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted April 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.85 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, Butero said: You didn't read my doctrine very clearly. That is not a willful sin. That is automatically under the blood covering. It is only willful or presumptuous sins that can cost you your salvation. Wow........let’s keep the same story going about our imaginary guy from your camp.....he was perfect and then committed the willful sin of smoking a cigarette.Maybe you ha d a better example, I’m just trying to make a point.Will one puff without repenting send him to hell? He was a born-again, God and man lover , gave everything he ever had to the poor, prayed without ceasing, a bad thought never entered his mind, but at the last second he committed a willful sin so he is bound for hell——- is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 1 minute ago, shiloh357 said: If someone is not genuinely saved, that is not the fault of eternal security. Abrayam was justified by faith apart from works BEFORE the attempted sacrifice of Isaac. James is not talking about the justification by faith mentioned in Romans 3. James is talking about works demonstrating faith. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac proved his faithfulness to God. That is not when Abraham was saved. Abraham was saved decades before Isaac was born. No, either your faith in 100% in Christ, and 0% in works, or else you are trusting in works. Salvation is Jesus +0. Which is just another way of saying that you're depending on works, ultimately to save you. No, it is not. Genuineness of salvation does not depend on having all of doctrine of Scripture correct. You clearly have made up in your mind, what I believe and are trying to argue against what you think, in your imagination, what I believe. You put the lie in my mouth, and then argue against it. You stated that a person who believes works are required to remain saved is not a Christian, and I pointed out that most don't form their doctrinal beliefs until after they get saved. As such, you are teaching that having your doctrine right is necessary to be saved, a work. You have stated that my doctrine doesn't give anyone security in their salvation, and I am saying neither does yours, if it is possible to think you are saved and you may not be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted April 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.85 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted April 1, 2018 Thanks for considering watching Zola....I will check out your suicide stuff later.....630 am here.....up all night.....35 years of working mid nite shifts is still in me.....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Blood Bought 1953 said: Wow........let’s keep the same story going about our imaginary guy from your camp.....he was perfect and then committed the willful sin of smoking a cigarette.Maybe you ha d a better example, I’m just trying to make a point.Will one puff without repenting send him to hell? He was a born-again, God and man lover , gave everything he ever had to the poor, prayed without ceasing, a bad thought never entered his mind, but at the last second he committed a willful sin so he is bound for hell——- is that correct? I don't know about taking a puff on a cigarette, because that is not listed as a sin in scripture, even though I personally don't believe in smoking. If a man lived a Christian life and commits the act of adultery and dies during the act, he will go to hell if he doesn't have time to repent. If a man who is a Christian all his life commits a pre-meditated murder and is shot dead before he can repent, he will go to hell. That is what I am saying. Puffing on a cigarette is not clearly a sin in the mind of all people, so I can't go along with that example of a willful sin. Lets look at your doctrine. A man who is a Christian all his life could be in the act of adultery and die and go to heaven. A man who is a Christian could shoot up a school and go to heaven. A man who is a Christian could literally do anything and make it to heaven. He could become an abortion clinic doctor and live next door to babies he killed. I have heard your kind of examples before to discredit me, and any examples you can use to try to make me look bad, I can turn around and use them to show how silly your doctrine appears. By the way, be careful with your examples, because they sound works based. "Gave everything to the poor, prayed without ceasing?" Sounds a lot like Mother Theresa. Do you believe she got to heaven based on such things in your doctrine, or did she go to hell in spite of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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