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Interesting Reader Question Posed: Absent from the Body...

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6 hours ago, Butero said:

Jesus said he is the God of the living, not the dead.

That's right, and this is what Paul is referring to when he says we are changed from mortal to immortal, clothed and not naked. He is referring to first resurrection.

Quote

Only the body sleeps in the ground.

No, our spirits (breath) returns to God who gave it.. "breath" cannot exist without a body Butero. God needed all three elements (body, spirit, soul) to create a human being, not just one.

Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Ezekiel 37:5 This is what the Lord GOD says to these bones: I will cause breath to enter you, and you will live.

Jhn 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.

ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Original Word: ר֫וּחַ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Short Definition: spirit

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit.

God bless

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12 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

That's right, and this is what Paul is referring to when he says we are changed from mortal to immortal, clothed and not naked. He is referring to first resurrection.

No, our spirits (breath) returns to God who gave it.. "breath" cannot exist without a body Butero. God needed all three elements (body, spirit, soul) to create a human being, not just one.

Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Eccl 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Ezekiel 37:5 This is what the Lord GOD says to these bones: I will cause breath to enter you, and you will live.

Jhn 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.

ruach: breath, wind, spirit
Original Word: ר֫וּחַ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: ruach
Phonetic Spelling: (roo'-akh)
Short Definition: spirit

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit.

God bless

The question of the difference between soul and spirit has been going on as long as I can remember, but there is one thing I am certain of, based on scripture.  The real you does not sleep in the ground.  The body does, but the intellect does not.  The rich man and Lazarus is never said to be a parable, and one was living in paradise and one in hell.  Moses appeared with Elijah and met with Jesus.  Moses was dead, and his body was sleeping in the ground, not his soul.  To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.  

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As with this child , Tabitha's spirit RETURNED...

Luke 8:55 CSB
[55] Her spirit returned, and she got up at once. Then he gave orders that she be given something to eat.

 

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2 hours ago, Butero said:

The question of the difference between soul and spirit has been going on as long as I can remember, but there is one thing I am certain of, based on scripture.  The real you does not sleep in the ground.  The body does, but the intellect does not.  The rich man and Lazarus is never said to be a parable, and one was living in paradise and one in hell.  Moses appeared with Elijah and met with Jesus.  Moses was dead, and his body was sleeping in the ground, not his soul.  To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.  

Well, using parables and visions to disprove soul sleep is not the best way to approach this.

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" is referring to mortality and immortality and being naked in the grave. You are choosing laziness and tradition over Hebrew/Greek. Where is the growth in that?

Not many are willing to go in depth and study this topic and find the truth on their own. They choose laziness and tradition over the truth, and if that's what you desire then so be it. 

Butero, our spirit is literally "breath" breathed into us by God, and our soul is the result of God's breath. In order for us to have a soul, God needed a BODY to breathe into. "The real you" includes your spirit and soul, and this is where your intellect comes from.

God however needed a BODY to give you life Butero. The spirit and soul cannot exist and live without a BODY. The BODY is simply a part of God's plan to create human beings. The confusion comes in when you separate spirit and soul from BODY.

"A living being" with intellect has a BODY.

Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

God bless.

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Shalom George.

 

You stated that the soul of believer returns to the Lord, this is true, but not only of believer but of every man and woman on Earth, because our soul is the property of the Lord and all souls belong only to GOD, very much like everything else on this Earth.

 

Ecclesiastes 12. 7

7.*and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath (breath of life, spirit, soul, of human being) returns to GOD Who gave it.

 

 

Ezekiel 18.4

4."Know that all lives are Mine, the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is Mine..."

 

In reply to the second part of your post I would like to point out that some people used very judgmental, inappropriate and badly chosen words concerning some statement and passages of the Bible without understanding them fully.

 

Does be prophet Elisha also was very cruel when he resurrected from the dead the child of Shunammite woman? 2Kings 4.32-37.

 

Or may be Jesus Christ also was very cruel when He resurrected from the dead so many people? Or may Apostles of Christ also were cruel when they resurrected many dead?

 

Matthew 10.8

Commandments of Jesus to His disciples.

8."Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. You received without payment, give without payment."

 

Elisha, Jesus Christ, and Peter, and many others showed to us the power of the Lord over the physical death, in order that people would believe in the power of their GOD, and many did, and it change the life of many people for the better and turned them to their GOD, and only GOD.

 

And even during crucifixion of Jesus the graves were open and the dead were came and prophesied in Jerusalem! Do you know how many people saw it and became permanent and dedicated believers in Christ?

 

If GOD chose such way to convince people of His power over the death, who then have the right to criticize the Lord and call such action as cruel?

 

Above all, will be even bigger resurrection of the dead in the future on the universal scale.

 

Isaiah 26.19

19.Your dead shall live, their corpses shall rise (Ezekiel 37.1-14). O dwellers in the dust (Genesis 3.19) (Psalm 103.14) (Ecclesiast 3.20, 12.7), awake and sing for joy! Your dew is a radiant dew, and the Earth will give birth to those long dead (Ezekiel 37.1-14) (Daniel 12.2) (Hosea 13.14) (Ephesians 5.14). (NRSV)

19.Your dead will live, their corpses will rise (Ezekiel 37.1-14), you who lie in the dust (Genesis 3.19) (Psalm 103.14) (Ecclesiast 3.20, 12.7) awake and shout for joy, your dew is as the dew of the dawn, and the Earth will give birth to the departed spirits (Ezekiel 37.1-14) (Daniel 12.2) (Hosea 13.14) (Ephesians 5.14). (KSB

 

Ezekiel 37.12-13

12.Therefore, prophesy and say to them. 'Thus says the Lord GOD. I am going to open your graves and bring you up from your graves. O My people (see "People of GOD"), and I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

13.And you shall know that I am the Lord when I open your graves and bring you up from graves, O My people.

 

Daniel 12.2

2.Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to Everlasting Life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

John 5.21.25.28-29

21."Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever He wishes.

25.Very truly I tell you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of GOD, and those who hear will live.

28.Do not be astonished at this, the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice,

29.and will come out those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.”

 

Notice that the end of the passage in Daniel 12.1 is identical to the end of the passage in John 5.29.

 

There are many other similar statements indicating that resurrection will occur on the global scale. It is also support the fact that we from the very beginning have being created as immortal human beings in physical flesh, but lose our immortality due to disobedience to GOD.

 

This means that the history of human kind must make its complete circle and we have to receive our immortality back, according to the passages above.

 

In general, Bible depicts only two types of resurrections, one resurrection is temporary and a person would die again, the second resurrection is permanent and leading to eternal life in soul and in flesh.

 

So I hope I square out for you the point of the resurrection and answered your question.

 

Alex.

 

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1 hour ago, Alex2165 said:

This means that the history of human kind must make its complete circle and we have to receive our immortality back, according to the passages above. 

And we receive our immortality back in 1 Thess 4:14-17.

In your post you are confusing Jesus miracles of bringing people back from the dead so as to walk the earth again vs where they go after they permanently die. These are two different topics in where you're trying to mix the two to prove soul sleep is false.

Hollywood films has people living their lives in heaven and hell after they die, but if Hollywood had studied the Hebrew and Greek translation for spirit they would know that our spirit is translated "breath and wind".

So according to Hollywood, people are living their lives as breath and wind without bodies which is insane. The only thing that tradition has done has conditioned minds, and they use tv and movies to fulfill their agenda.

In reality what they're watching is either fallen angels, silly props or fictional characters just to make a buck..

https://www.amazon.com/Ghost-Patrick-Swayze/dp/B000N5F6PG/ref=sr_1_2?s=instant-video&ie=UTF8&qid=1528170122&sr=1-2&keywords=Ghost

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_2_14?url=search-alias%3Dinstant-video&field-keywords=found+footage+horror+films&sprefix=found+footage+%2Caps%2C145&crid=JPG4PQ3OPSSD

For example, between the time Lazarus died and rose from the dead was he sleeping (dead) in his grave, or was his spirit living and existing in heaven? "Sleep" is just a translation for "death". So Lazarus as a human being with a soul was sleeping in his grave.

1 Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

koimaó from NG2749: sleep, fall asleep, die
Original Word: κοιμάομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: koimaó from NG2749
Phonetic Spelling: (koy-mah'-o)
Short Definition: I fall asleep, am asleep
Definition: I fall asleep, am asleep, sometimes of the sleep of death.

God bless

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On 6/3/2018 at 2:17 AM, George said:

Shalom everyone,

This was a question that I received in our ministry inbox and quite thought provoking.   Let me know what you think. 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

As to the question, there seems to me to be a premise set forth  in it that  is simply not so. The premise that God's action needs squaring with  a person's desire that all be fair and to think it cruel  of Him to do what He may do if the person thinks it cruel or unfair.  Who is it that judges God?

 I sooner think  as Job indicated he thought when responding to his wife- ..." Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”....

Does the creator answer to the created?

Plus; Do I really want what is fair from God? I sure hope I am not  that unwise as to demand what is fair, for I have been given unmerited mery and grace, full payment of the price of my own sins against God by the atonement paid in blood By God the Son. God has reconciled what is just with what is merciful. So nope, I sure don't want fair! I will be in irreversible eternal trouble to my doom if fair is to be the standard by which God acts.  

I will  bow before Jesus  in thanks that He is not fair, but instead is awesome in His sacrifice and His merciful duty to His Father. I want to be used in anyway my maker desires to use me.  Whatever way, whenever, but please no fairness, I could not survive what is fair, what I deserve.

 

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On 6/3/2018 at 2:17 AM, George said:

Shalom everyone,

This was a question that I received in our ministry inbox and quite thought provoking.   Let me know what you think. 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

Jesus Himself raised from the dead the father's daughter, and the grieving mother's son. It's important to remember that those resurrections were by the request of a family member. And, it should be noted that eventually they all died and went to heaven. As far as those resurrected and the rejoicing family members.. why object about that?

We all have to come back to the realized truth that God allowed that the request to occur. Therefore He more than anyone of us judged it to be acceptable. So, when it comes to an outside party having an objection that someone got resurrected.. The question arises: does the text indicate that the person who died was ready to die? Does it indicate that the resurrected person objected? No.

As one who's been to the funeral of my sister who died in childbirth, what family member would have objected if someone in our family had had the faith to get my sister raised up from the dead? Answer: We would all have rejoiced.

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To Hebrews 13.8

 

First, you did not read my post carefully, in my post I already mentioned about two types of resurrections, one is temporary and the other is permanent, and there is a big difference between them.

 

Second, you talk exactly as the seven day Adventist do.  They truly believe that the word “sleep” that often used symbolically in tandem with the word “dead” or “death” in certain places of the Bible - literally means death.

 

I used to go to seven day Adventist church for a while, because they worship on Sabbath day, but I was appalled at their twisted and completely insane doctrines and traditions which go against not only the Bible principals and ideals, but even at elementary common sense and any logical reasoning.

 

I am no longer go to their church, but I tried hard to convince them that using word “sleep” in reference to “death” is a figure of speech, a metaphor, and no more than that. But they refused to understand this. Above all, they are also believed that soul does not exist, they believe that the physical body is the soul, and they also believe in some other completely delusion things like this.

 

Anyway, if you are a seven days Adventist, it would be pointless for me to talk to you on this issue, but I will try again to explain to all who believe in this nonsense that sleep and death completely different thing and cannot be mix together.

 

For example:

 

John 11.11-14

 11.After saying this He told them, “Our friend Lazarus had fallen asleep, but I am going there to awaken him.”

 

12.The disciples said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep he will be all right.”

 

13.Jesus however had been speaking about his death, but they though that He was referring merely to sleep.

 

14.Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is DEAD.

 

How we can decipher this statement of Christ? At first Jesus said, “Lazarus had fallen asleep.” Such figure of speech often found in the Bible, and Jesus uses this metaphor and aphorism to indicate death and following resurrection in the last day, means that sooner or later Lazarus will be resurrected to everlasting life.

 

But His disciples took it literally and though that Lazarus indeed sleeping and will awake by himself, and so he is all right, and does not need to be waking up.

 

In verse 13 John himself pointed out that Jesus was talking about DEATH and future resurrection, and not about sleep. Because after sleep we wake up without any help of others, but no one wakes ups after death, unless GOD will make it so. Death is a permanent state and cannot be reversed like sleep.

 

But seven day Adventist insists that death does not exist, but we have only sleep.

 

In verse 14 then Jesus saw and realized  that they did not understand Him, only when He said to them in plain language that the Lazarus is dead, and only when they get it.

 

So it is absolutely obvious that the word “sleep” here is a metaphor and a figure of speech, but the word “DEAD” is a real word and means DEATH, and nothing else.

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Below is a belief statement of immediate presence with the Lord. What is / are the biblical indicators of that belief?

That should be the place from which to start the discussion.

 

 

On 6/3/2018 at 2:17 AM, George said:

Shalom everyone,

This was a question that I received in our ministry inbox and quite thought provoking.   Let me know what you think. 

Your brother in the Lord with much agape love,

George

This was a question that I received in our ministry inbox and quite thought provoking.   Let me know what you think. 

  Quote

From your statement of faith:
"We believe that immediately upon death, the soul of the believer is absent from the body, and present with the Lord."

I am just wondering how you square that with Tabitha in the book of Acts being raised from the dead by Peter.   (On your reading of the Scriptures, I cannot see but that such an action by Peter would be incredibly cruel, calling her from being present with the Lord back to this sinful world!)

Thanks for any insight you may have about this.

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