I used to be an atheist; here's why many won't reach people like me

[Mike Mclees]

1 hour ago, Adstar said:

That does not really answer the question for me..

But if you do not want to give a personal answer..

So be it.. 

 

[Still Alive]

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 1:13 AM, stillseeking said:

Like the title says, I was an atheist previously.  For years, in fact.  I know a lot of Christians are born and raised that way, and I want to speak personally to some of the disconnect between those believers who were born and raised as such and the people they're usually the most frustrated they can't reach: atheists. 

I don't want this to be a super-long read.  The following are a few reasons why (many) of you aren't reaching people like me--people who are open to different opinions but are largely disgusted at how their being presented.  Do you catch yourself doing any of these?  I ask you in that case to pause, be mindful of it, and humbly consider this list of ineffective behaviors:

• Stating your interpretation of the Bible as gospel truth--especially concerning grey areas.  Many atheists and agnostics are far more informed about the Bible than you might expect.  They will question your interpretation.  Be honest about how you came to adopt the interpretations you did.  Even if they disagree with you, you'll both still walk away with mutual respect, and that's super important if you ever plan to follow up with them in any capacity whatsoever. 
• Speaking in any kind of accusatory manner.  You may be right that their behavior is sinful, but what's the point in rubbing that in their face when they don't yet believe in a holy God?  You've given them no reason yet to believe sin is even wrong. 
• Speaking in any way, of any thing, that is motivated by your own self-righteousness.  Be extremely honest with yourself about this.  If you think you've achieved "humble", then that's probably a sign to be more humble. 
• Failing to give people the benefit of the doubt when they ask questions or pose doubts.  Give them the benefit of the doubt that they're *not* just trying to be annoying/contradict you/win an argument/attack you.  If you assume everyone has bad motives, you'll start to believe this assumption even when it's not true, and furthermore, you'll lose the chance to win with kindness. 
• Force feeding people gospel information when they've made it clear they're not interested.  Talk to someone who IS interested.  Jesus never forced his message on anyone and in fact issued warnings to those who would choose to follow him. 
• Assuming your biblical interpretation is essential doctrine, or speaking to someone as if it is. 
• Treating the desire to prove using logic as some sort of horrible heresy.  There are plenty of logical arguments for God.  If you don't know any, point them to Ravi Zacharias or John Lennox videos and debates on Youtube (or whomever else you find influential).  The attitude that logic must be abandoned in order to follow God is not only ridiculous but incredibly off-putting to an intelligent person. 
• Accusing them of holding a position they don't, just because they question yours.  Example: "You believe in abortions?  Then you must be a new age feminazi!"
• Losing your patience for any reason, but especially because of: the content of someone's response, someone's emotions, someone's culture, someone just not matching your expectations

I hope this helps.  I'd also be happy to discuss what it's like actually BEING an atheist approached by Christians, what I found annoying, and what I found respectful and effective.  I'm putting this out there because it's been my observation that the way Christians usually approach atheists is horrible and not at all respectful and effective...and I'd like to help change that.  That's all. 

Nailed it!

What has helped me in ministering to atheists and agnostics is that I was one until I accepted His free gift when I was 27. What I find interesting is that a lot of those who were raised in the church actually leave it in their 20's. This happened to all three of my daughters, but, happily, one has returned and the others seem to be on that path. Their mother divorcing me "without cause" when they were 10, 13, and 16 seemed to be the main catalyst.

[Mike Mclees]

In an earlier section we saw a beautiful example of the first result of regeneration in a person’s life, when Paul spoke the gospel message to Lydia and “the Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul” (Acts 16:14; cf. John 6:44, 65; 1 Peter 1:3). Similarly, John says, “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God” (1 John 5:1 NIV).10 But there are also other results of regeneration, many of which are specified in John’s first epistle. For example, John says, “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9 NIV). Here John explains that a person who is born again has that spiritual “seed” (that life-generating and growing power) within him, and that this keeps the person living a life free of continual sin. This does not of course mean that the person will have a perfect life, but only that the pattern of life will not be one of continuing indulgence in sin. When people are asked to characterize a regenerated person’s life, the adjective that comes to mind should not be “sinner,” but rather something like “obedient to Christ” or “obedient to Scripture.” We should notice that John says this is true of everyone who is truly born again: “No one who is born of God will continue to sin.” Another way of looking at this is to say that “every one who does what is right has been born of him” (1 John 2:29).
A genuine, Christlike love will be one specific result in life: “Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7 NIV). Another effect of the new birth is overcoming the world: “And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God has overcome the world” (1 John 5:3–4 NIV). Here John explains that regeneration gives the ability to overcome the pressures and temptations of the world that would otherwise keep us from obeying God’s commandments and following his paths. John says that we will overcome these pressures and therefore it will not be “burdensome” to obey God’s commands but, he implies, it will rather be joyful. He goes on to explain that the process through which we gain victory over the world is continuing in faith: “This is the victory that has overc

 

[john1]

10 hours ago, Adstar said:

That does not really answer the question for me..

I thought gay people were condemned until I read the bible my first 100 times, I don't think you've read all my posts in this topic, I don't think I can help you though, I'd pray for mercy, maybe these verses will help you.

 

Matthew chapter 4 verse 4

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Romans chapter 1 verse 28

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
 

John chapter 8 verse 31,32

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, " If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

2 John

 ⁹ Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Job chapter 23 verse 12

I have not departed from the commands of his lips; I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread.

 

^{Matthew 11}

²⁸ “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. ²⁹ Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. ³⁰ For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Luke chapter 21

³³ Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Romans chapter 10 

¹⁷ Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Mark chapter 13

³¹ Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

James chapter 1

²⁵ But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

James chapter 4

⁸ Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Isaiah chapter 45 verse 19

I have not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob's descendants, 'Seek me in vain.' I, the LORD, speak the truth; I declare what is right.

Jeremiah chapter 9

²⁴ but let the one who boasts boast about this:
    that they have the understanding to know me,
that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness,
    justice and righteousness on earth,
    for in these I delight,”
declares the Lord.

Jeremiah chapter 5 verse 1

5 “Go up and down the streets of Jerusalem,
    look around and consider,
    search through her squares.
If you can find but one person
    who deals honestly and seeks the truth,
    I will forgive this city.

Psalm 119 verse 114

You are my refuge and my shield; I have put my hope in your word.

[stillseeking]

Quote

This is the incredibly frustrating thing for me right now... Why on earth are you interpreting my concern for your salvation status as some kind of accusation or personal attack ?????

What is stopping you from interpreting my post as a caring Christian actually wondering  if you have the full Gospel message and am asking you these questions to get clarity as to what you actually believe.. So i can either identify a problem or see that you are in the right salvation place with the LORD Jesus Christ???

So when i ask this question """ What causes you have eternal life with God in his eternal existence?  """  That's me giving you the floor to respond with the answer to this question so i will know exactly what you believe causes a Christian to have eternal life with God...

So yes i do not know if you are saved... I honestly don't know...  But you have got it into your head that i am out to somehow burn you at the stake....  Unbelievable.. I am really dumbfounded.. Do you see an inquisition around every other corner???? 

Little confused here.  I see a lot of anger in you post.  That's exactly the thing that makes people not want to confide in you or answer you about salvation, and that's kind of been the whole point of this thread.  You are also over-exaggerating what you imagine to be my reaction to your question.  Why? 

As I've stated before, the only issue I have is the way people go about evangelism--and presently, the way you're going about this.  I read your posts and sense impatience and anger.  You must feel you are owed the answer you expect to your personal questions to me; otherwise you would not respond with such anger when you fail to get it.  This information is not owed to you.  I answer to God, not you. 

(Not that you're owed this information, either, but another forum member managed to pose a similar question to me which WAS met with my response...in a private message.  It's all in how you say it.)

I don't need to defend my salvation to you anymore than Jesus needed to defend his lordship to those that questioned him...or the same way a mother would never feel obligated to answer a stranger off the street saying, "Do you even know HOW to take care of that baby?"  or to the girl who just bought a sports car, "Do you actually know how to drive that thing?" etc.  A question that puts people on the defensive generally isn't very 'loving'.  Similar questions could be asked under different circumstances and prove far more effective when delivered with love.

In summary, demanding answers to personal questions at inopportune times and then getting angry when people don't answer is *not* loving.  This is the sort of thing which drives people away and makes them not really want to talk to the aggressors. 

[Adstar]

16 hours ago, john1 said:

I thought gay people were condemned until I read the bible my first 100 times, I don't think you've read all my posts in this topic, I don't think I can help you though, I'd pray for mercy, maybe these verses will help you.

 

Matthew chapter 4 verse 4

Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Romans chapter 1 verse 28

Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
 

John chapter 8 verse 31,32

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, " If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

2 John

 ⁹ Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Job chapter 23 verse 12

I have not departed from the commands of his lips; I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread.

 

^{Matthew 11}

²⁸ “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. ²⁹ Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. ³⁰ For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Luke chapter 21

³³ Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Romans chapter 10 

¹⁷ Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Mark chapter 13

³¹ Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

James chapter 1

²⁵ But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

James chapter 4

⁸ Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Isaiah chapter 45 verse 19

I have not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob's descendants, 'Seek me in vain.' I, the LORD, speak the truth; I declare what is right.

Jeremiah chapter 9

²⁴ but let the one who boasts boast about this:
    that they have the understanding to know me,
that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness,
    justice and righteousness on earth,
    for in these I delight,”
declares the Lord.

Jeremiah chapter 5 verse 1

5 “Go up and down the streets of Jerusalem,
    look around and consider,
    search through her squares.
If you can find but one person
    who deals honestly and seeks the truth,
    I will forgive this city.

Psalm 119 verse 114

You are my refuge and my shield; I have put my hope in your word.

Ok lets see if i can crack your code...

You said::

Quote

I was driven away from God, by people who said you had to be married to have sex.

But now you are bringing up the topic of homosexuality and i am thinking What has that got to do with the price of tea in China..  Then i was thinking Ohhhh He was offended because gays do not get married and therefore when he heard that unmarried people having sex was sin he thought it was Christianity discriminating against gay people...

Why didn't you just say...  i was driven away from God because i thought Christianity taught that God would cast all gay people into the lake of fire because having sex outside of marriage was sin and gays don't get married and gays have sex with each other.....

That would have been talking in plain English and would have saved us a lot of unnecessary posting..

But then again i am not even sure i am on the right track with you even now...  Because you have posted matthew 11 luke 21 james 1 isaiah 45 and jeramiah 9 - 5 and so on.. Yeah they are all inspired scriptures and that's good.. But they do not seem to have anything in them directly related to homosexuals and their eternal destiny and the way of salvation for homosexuals..

So yeah you're still mystifying me sadly.. 

No worries though you have your indirect mysterious style and i have a more direct plain speaking style so maybe where just not destined to have much fellowship in the future..

Quote

I'd pray for mercy

Now why are you advising me to pray for mercy...  I believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement he secured for me on the cross... I already have His mercy..

[Adstar]

10 hours ago, stillseeking said:

Little confused here.  I see a lot of anger in you post.  That's exactly the thing that makes people not want to confide in you or answer you about salvation, and that's kind of been the whole point of this thread.  You are also over-exaggerating what you imagine to be my reaction to your question.  Why? 

As I've stated before, the only issue I have is the way people go about evangelism--and presently, the way you're going about this.  I read your posts and sense impatience and anger.  You must feel you are owed the answer you expect to your personal questions to me; otherwise you would not respond with such anger when you fail to get it.  This information is not owed to you.  I answer to God, not you. 

(Not that you're owed this information, either, but another forum member managed to pose a similar question to me which WAS met with my response...in a private message.  It's all in how you say it.)

I don't need to defend my salvation to you anymore than Jesus needed to defend his lordship to those that questioned him...or the same way a mother would never feel obligated to answer a stranger off the street saying, "Do you even know HOW to take care of that baby?"  or to the girl who just bought a sports car, "Do you actually know how to drive that thing?" etc.  A question that puts people on the defensive generally isn't very 'loving'.  Similar questions could be asked under different circumstances and prove far more effective when delivered with love.

In summary, demanding answers to personal questions at inopportune times and then getting angry when people don't answer is *not* loving.  This is the sort of thing which drives people away and makes them not really want to talk to the aggressors. 

I actually did not get angry when you did not answer the questions.. I was offended not that you decided not to answer the questions, i got offended because you where accusing me of not being nice thus you where accusing me of being nasty,, And i was not being nasty at all.. I was simply asking questions and i made no demand at all..  You projected those intentions upon me unjustly..

Yes my last post was written under frustration.. Because my intention in asking those questions was to help you and your response stopped me helping you and you accused me of being nasty when in actual fact i was being loving towards you out of concern for your salvation..

But now i read again this post of yours and you are doubling down sticking to your accusation that i am nasty .. Nobody likes being falsely accused.. I don't that's for sure.. And i have been unjustly accused by you even after i have posted again trying to clarify my actual intentions.. So i have turned my cheek to you twice and you have slapped me again..

No need to reply to this post.. I will withdraw from this interaction with you..

such is life..

[Neighbor]

On 7/3/2018 at 1:13 AM, stillseeking said:

Like the title says, I was an atheist previously.  For years, in fact.  I know a lot of Christians are born and raised that way, and I want to speak personally to some of the disconnect between those believers who were born and raised as such and the people they're usually the most frustrated they can't reach: atheists. 

I don't want this to be a super-long read.  The following are a few reasons why (many) of you aren't reaching people like me--people who are open to different opinions but are largely disgusted at how their being presented.  Do you catch yourself doing any of these?  I ask you in that case to pause, be mindful of it, and humbly consider this list of ineffective behaviors:

• Stating your interpretation of the Bible as gospel truth--especially concerning grey areas.  Many atheists and agnostics are far more informed about the Bible than you might expect.  They will question your interpretation.  Be honest about how you came to adopt the interpretations you did.  Even if they disagree with you, you'll both still walk away with mutual respect, and that's super important if you ever plan to follow up with them in any capacity whatsoever. 
• Speaking in any kind of accusatory manner.  You may be right that their behavior is sinful, but what's the point in rubbing that in their face when they don't yet believe in a holy God?  You've given them no reason yet to believe sin is even wrong. 
• Speaking in any way, of any thing, that is motivated by your own self-righteousness.  Be extremely honest with yourself about this.  If you think you've achieved "humble", then that's probably a sign to be more humble. 
• Failing to give people the benefit of the doubt when they ask questions or pose doubts.  Give them the benefit of the doubt that they're *not* just trying to be annoying/contradict you/win an argument/attack you.  If you assume everyone has bad motives, you'll start to believe this assumption even when it's not true, and furthermore, you'll lose the chance to win with kindness. 
• Force feeding people gospel information when they've made it clear they're not interested.  Talk to someone who IS interested.  Jesus never forced his message on anyone and in fact issued warnings to those who would choose to follow him. 
• Assuming your biblical interpretation is essential doctrine, or speaking to someone as if it is. 
• Treating the desire to prove using logic as some sort of horrible heresy.  There are plenty of logical arguments for God.  If you don't know any, point them to Ravi Zacharias or John Lennox videos and debates on Youtube (or whomever else you find influential).  The attitude that logic must be abandoned in order to follow God is not only ridiculous but incredibly off-putting to an intelligent person. 
• Accusing them of holding a position they don't, just because they question yours.  Example: "You believe in abortions?  Then you must be a new age feminazi!"
• Losing your patience for any reason, but especially because of: the content of someone's response, someone's emotions, someone's culture, someone just not matching your expectations

I hope this helps.  I'd also be happy to discuss what it's like actually BEING an atheist approached by Christians, what I found annoying, and what I found respectful and effective.  I'm putting this out there because it's been my observation that the way Christians usually approach atheists is horrible and not at all respectful and effective...and I'd like to help change that.  That's all. 

Hi, Going back to the original post, I suggest it doesn't really matter how good a presentation is, nor how bad. The born again Christian is to share of Jesus, period.

No one is turned about to God by the skilled tongue of any saint. For no person saves another. Turning about to salvation is the sole doing of God the Holy Spirit. The saint, the saved believer in Christ Jesus as Lord, God, and savior, is to give testimony as a witness of their salvation and as a praise to God, for it pleases God and is His command of each saint. 

I too was an adult atheist. I too did not receive the call to turn about from my sin against God by the testimony given by so many saints. I was turned about by the Holy Spirit in answer to the prayer of one saint and perhaps many,  as God does answer prayer. After I was turned about by the Holy Spirit I find I recall  the words of perhaps every saint that ever gave their testimony as a witness for Jesus who is God.

 I like everyone that denies Jesus as Lord was solely responsible for my own rebelious nature. It had nothing to do with any saint's failure to be an excellent witness. It was all my own sin against God.

It is written that no one has excuse for denying God, no one. So it just doesn't matter, an atheist cannot successfully use a saint as his excuse. Everyone individually accepts or denies the call by the Holy Spirit to their repentance. I found I would have to be insane to further deny the call I received, and so I capitulated, gave up on my pride, my arrogance, my foolishness of relying on the world's wisdoms, and turned to God in total personal humbling humility, and was immediately saved from the plight of my  sin and my own personal arrogance.

The saints cannot be successfully faulted for any failure of a nonbeliever to turn about in repentance of their sin against God, it just doesn't pertain, as it is the holy Spirit that makes the individual call to each person. Each person is without an excuse each must face the consequence of their own decision.

 All the other stuff that atheists try to debate is just a doing of a dance that leads to nowhere good for them if they persist in their world's wisdoms. 

[stillseeking]

Quote

I actually did not get angry when you did not answer the questions.. I was offended not that you decided not to answer the questions, i got offended because you where accusing me of not being nice thus you where accusing me of being nasty,, And i was not being nasty at all.. I was simply asking questions and i made no demand at all..  You projected those intentions upon me unjustly..

In that case I'm confused about your statements here:

Quote

But you have got it into your head that i am out to somehow burn you at the stake.... 

Do you see an inquisition around every other corner????

Generally, exaggerated punctuation coupled with false accusatory questions such as the above comes across as angry, especially on an internet forum So, apologies if I misunderstood your intention, but understand how it came across.  Thanks. 

This interaction is actually a perfect example that illustrates some issues with approaches which I see.  I've tried to calmly explain what they are, but I've been met with impatience, accusations, and anger.  If your intentions are truly as pure as you claim, a quick "I'm sorry that came across wrong" would have probably fixed it.  Instead, I see an angry sounding post with lots of exaggerated punctuation and accusatory questions. 

Maybe you can understand how I reacted to you when you see that you reacted to someone else the same way:

Quote

Quote

I'd pray for mercy

Now why are you advising me to pray for mercy...  I believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement he secured for me on the cross... I already have His mercy..

The above example is one where you also interpreted a potentially neutral Christian admonition as something further.  I mention it only to help you understand that what you just did here is similar to how I reacted to you; maybe you can see how it's possible for things like this to come across in ways other than which we intended. 

I hope going forward we can practice humility and patience in our interactions. 

Edited July 6, 2018 by stillseeking
additional info

[stillseeking]

Quote

It is written that no one has excuse for denying God, no one. So it just doesn't matter, an atheist cannot successfully use a saint as his excuse.

That very well may be true.  However, the purpose of this post is not to identify who is to blame for someone's missed salvation--it's to identify how we can be more effective with people so they don't miss salvation.  How you say something ultimately makes all the difference in whether or not someone will listen and take you seriously.  How you practice love and patience will determine if that person sees you as a hypocrite or a genuine person.  If we're serious about reaching the lost, these are the things we'll care about.