JohnD Posted July 18, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2018 2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV) 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Most people on planet Earth for all of history are ignorant of this verse, the meaning of it, and the weight of it. Yet is is important enough for the Holy Spirit to inspire the holy man of God who wrote it to write "Know this first..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2018 To answer the OP about particulars he points out and those who want to delve into the minutia arguments... I am an apologist. And I used to dive into every nook and cranny of everyone's argument for or against whatever... or to point out how unbiblical a heresy is or some pet peeve belief that some have which contradicts the Bible. But I have confidence in the same Holy Spirit who wrote the Bible through holy men of God and who alone properly interprets the Bible... I have confidence in the same Holy Spirit to convince and convict sincere seekers of the actual truth to turn to him and abandon their foolishness as he has me and mine. I am speaking generally about the OP's point about the Church at large and the later challenge by a responder how does he (or anyone) know they are saved? So anyone's disagreement with what I have written in as much as it agrees with the scriptures, disagrees with the scriptures and the One who wrote them. I am just an unworthy mouth piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2018 8 minutes ago, JohnD said: 2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV) 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Most people on planet Earth for all of history are ignorant of this verse, the meaning of it, and the weight of it. Yet is is important enough for the Holy Spirit to inspire the holy man of God who wrote it to write "Know this first..." I have not found another passage of scripture that says in effect "Read me first." Point being, going down the wrong road or climbing the wrong tree begins at the beginning. Pontius Pilate was looking Truth personified in the face when he cynically stated "What is truth?" That's not only the Gentile / unbeliever's condition or the Old Testament condition... that's the human condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2018 Jesus in his High Priestly prayer (John 17) repeatedly prayed that those who believe in him would be one. One as the Father and he are one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, JohnD said: Jesus in his High Priestly prayer (John 17) repeatedly prayed that those who believe in him would be one. One as the Father and he are one. And what was the reply from the Father? "Ah, Jesus, you impetuous kid ya... ...don't you know you are asking the impossible?" No! The division of the Church is one of the greatest indicators of the direction of the Church the direction it's headed in the wrong one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2018 Definition of the Church, the assembly, the gathering... is the body of believers. It is the organism not the organization. Man is so diverse it seems impossible that all who believe in Jesus could be one. But what is impossible for man is possible for God. No doubt he could align us all in an instant... but that would eliminate our choice. We must choose God and God's way as opposed to not God and not God's way (which is the only other choice). God can orchestrate billions of people who are free moral agents in a fallen world IF we submit to his Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) The Holy Spirit is not just a guilty conscience we have. He is God's Foreman. Edited July 18, 2018 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie T Posted July 18, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 528 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 102 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/26/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, inbox24 said: So I've been to all these churches now and none of them seem truly Christian, and I'm wondering if it is either me or the church itself. I have been told that I am an unloving, judgemental hypocrite, a Pharisee of sorts. I admit to being unloving, a Pharisee and a hypocrite, but I can't accept the fact that being judgemental is necessarily wrong. I also can't accept the fact that 95% of these places are even real churches. 1) I find it detestable that the people in these churches are prospering physically and in the worldly manner. Their lives consist of studying hard when they're young, obtaining a good high school mark to enter a reputable field of tertiary study, obtaining a high paying white collar job, building up a financial empire, buying a house and then with the backing of such resources behind them, finding a spouse with similar values, marrying, having 1-3 children, and then sitting back and enjoying the fruits of their labour, both financially and professionally until they retire. There would also be the obligatory biannual overseas holidays and road trips, friendship circles, regular eating out, a nice European luxury vehicle, a house in a safe and prosperous neighbour in a good school catchment area. This is the pattern of 95% of the people who attend the Western evangelical (Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist) churches. They cannot be differentiated in their goals, dreams, pursuits and lords, when compared with unbelievers. There is no denying self, no carrying the cross, no beating the body into submission. The "Jesus" of their imagination can be 'worshipped' together (and I use the word "worship" loosely - to throw ten dollars into the collection basket, spend 2 hours a week doing 'church related activity') with the other metaphorical Baals and Asherah poles in their life. Their lives have been compartmentalised, one god for each area of their life, just like the Israelites. We often scorn the Israelites and think "how could they be so stupid and wicked for turning to idols so easily" and yet our problem is still the same even after all these millennia. The Jesus of their imagination is merely the god of the "get out of hell free ticket". Once you have a good high paying job, beautiful spouse, good house in a good suburb, nice car, eating out, holidays, if you've got this life 'covered' so to speak, the next natural progression of that is 'covering' yourself for the next life right? If out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, then what we do know is that all these people's real gods are laid bare. The Bible tells real born again Christians, that with much tribulation, they will enter the kingdom. It tells them that many will try to enter and not be able to, that narrow is the road. I didn't know that the road was simply as narrow as studying hard so that you could have a good career and be able to enjoy this life to the full? We often criticise the low hanging fruit, the Joel Osteens, the Kenneth Copelands and Benny Hinn's, but they are merely caricatures of what the pastors, the congregation members are living and thinking, deep in their hearts and minds. I would like to make an addendum to this section that yes, my criticism extends to that of Bible study which involves reading and discussion a chapter, eating snacks, having a discussion whereby private interpretation is allowed (2 Peter) and then socialising. 2) Which brings me to the second point about pastors. I really like what Leonard Ravenhill talked about when he said that a pastor who does not pray for 2 hours a day is not worth his salt. Most of the pastors I've talked to today either operate their Satanic ministry from the flesh, and therefore are not born again. They have no personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and this shows through the quality of their ministry, reproducing false disciples who are just like them. Like producing like. These pastors are just as worldly as their congregation members, joining in to organise social events, so that people can hang out together to eat, drink and be merry, all under the banner of "fellowship", as if spending time together to talk about careers, and who won the football game last weekend, or who's in that new movie will cause great sanctification. I've heard people speak of church membership, but let's be real, most pastors don't really care about who comes and who goes on a weekly basis, if at all they even notice. Most are merely event organisers, and if that's the case, why not just hire an actual event planner/organiser from some event planning company? Surely they can produce a "bring your friend event" much better than these pastors can? Surely they who have an actual degree in this would do a much better job? I mean if after all, you are using carnal means to attract people, then why not just go the whole hog. The problem here is the leader of the congregation himself is not born again, therefore they have no Holy Spirit in them, and they have no power of God, to feed sheep. They can only be demonic in their thinking, to lead sheep astray, under the guise of sanctification. Satan after all, appears like an angel of light, and all his works in planting tares, his 'best work' is not done at the brothel, or gambling den, but rather in the church to produce false ministers to lead astray and retard the sanctification of the elect, and to keep the other tares in the dark. 3) The combination of this produces an environment hostile and disabling to the true functions of the church. The true function of the church is for born again believers who have the Holy Spirit to worship together, fellowship together, keep each other accountable (read judge one another) and keep them on the narrow path. If you've got a situation where 95% of the congregation are tares, and the pastor and most of the elders are not born again, they will produce hostility against any individual who raises the issue of the failings of the church, because Satan would want to prevent any renewal, revival or restoration of the actual church. Now we know Satan is adept at twisting scriptures and taking them out of context as with his temptation of Jesus, so demons will plant Matthew 6 into a lot of tares' minds and tell them to answer back "judge not lest ye be judged", when confronted with truth. This twists scripture because the verse is encouraging non hypocritical judgement, rather than hypocritical judgement. It is not commanding NOT JUDGING as implied by many of those in the church who use this defence. It says after removing the plank from your own eye, "THEN REMOVE THE SPECK FROM YOUR BROTHER'S EYE" What it doesn't say is "first remove the plank from your own eye, and then your job is done and do nothing else". The end of 1st Corinthians 5 talks about Paul judging the people inside the church explicitly. In fact, the books of the Corinthians talk about how Paul deals with blatant sin in the church, which is another huge problem in the church. Except that when you have false ministers and false Christians in the church, the message really is one of "love" rather than confrontation. Since when did true love and confrontation become enemies? If we truly regard the people in the church as our heavenly brothers and sisters, would it be loving, to allow someone with spiritual cancer (that is, blatant, unrepentant and obvious sin) to go unnoticed and not say a word. If that happened in the earthly sense, even non-believers would know to say something when they can see a family member has an illness, to encourage them to see the doctor! How much more so and more important would it be for someone who's eternal salvation is at stake?! 4) I have yet to see a convincing argument against all this. Usually people respond with an ad hominem personal attack, which is fine because I myself have issues to work on and to repent of and to change. But where is the attack on the substance and content of what is being said? If it is in error, if it is falsehood, then it should easily be discredited, because otherwise, all I can think of is 2 Timothy 3 and 2 Thessalonians and the end of Matthew 24. I didn't really want to write all this out before, but because I'm looking for a Biblical church, finding all these problems and issues (with many personal experiences of the satanic influences in churches), all I get is rebuke for being judgemental. One of the reasons why I’m writing this is to express frustration at no one seeing this problem, but also I would like to say that in a very selfish manner, I am past the point where I care about the salvation of these professors of Christianity in the church. I am past losing sleep over that, all I care about is being in an environment which is more corrupt and tempting than in the secular world. When I go to secular places of work, or hang out with non-believer friends, my mental expectation is resistance and being tempted by the world (although less so now). But if I am experiencing the same kind of discouragement from the church and from the pastor, from other believers, who are encouraging worldliness and sin for example claiming vehemently that “it’s okay to buy a BMW! It’s not a sin!”, it will cause me to stumble, maybe not right at this moment with this particular sin, but like water wearing a rock away over time, something will give. I have had previous examples of this happen, and in the history of my investigating Christianity, the worst times I’ve had in my spiritual walk is when I have been going to church and been involved in their activities and the lives of the people there. So no, I’m not just talking out of my ignorance, so to speak. Finally, I would like to say that it’s difficult for me to serve in the church, if I am not sure of my condition before God, whether or not I am saved. I cannot believe that most pastors with 4-6 years or more of “formal theological training” and years and years of pastoral ministry cannot even answer the basic questions of how a person knows that they are saved. What really irks me is these professing Christians walking in darkness who have full assurance of their salvation, that is, they can “have their cake and eat it too”. I unashamedly say that I am jealous of such people, that they can have peace in their lives, whilst I have none. The answer is simple, you just need to move out to Southern California where the people you seek seem to congregate. Edited July 18, 2018 by Willie T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted July 18, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 953 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,589 Content Per Day: 5.03 Reputation: 9,057 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted July 18, 2018 12 minutes ago, JohnD said: The Holy Spirit is not just a guilty conscience we have. He is God's Foreman. Foreman? A hired hand? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 18, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 18, 2018 38 minutes ago, Neighbor said: Foreman? A hired hand? Sure. Why not? Jesus is the servant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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