Fiction reading

[GandalfTheWise]

3 hours ago, daughterofGrace said:

I'm a writer by trade and, all of my life, I have craved stories.  When I was a kid, if I didn't have a book to read, I'd read the encyclopedia. 

A writer friend of mine was talking about how you could actually speak the truth more effectively in fiction than in non-fiction because it engages not just the mind, but the emotions as well.  Readers step inside stories and get involved in them on a deep level.  A good story stays with a person, keeps him/her thinking about it long after they have closed the book or turned off the DVD player.

Right now I am reading Holly Ordway's Apologetics and The Christian Imagination.  Ordway was an atheist who came to Christ through literature, specifically,  through The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia.  They're stories that embody Christianity.  She talks about how metaphors can build a bridge between the known and unknown.  It takes a talented writer such as Tolkien or Lewis to be able to do that.

It's interesting that, in places where censorship might prevent someone from sharing the truth, it can be done in stories that go under the radar.  There's a reason that, historically, totalitarian governments have shut down theatres, smashed printing presses and thrown writers in jail.  They know how dangerous stories can be!

I grew up an avid reader as well, and at some point, I sort of grew up and stopped believing in stories.  Fortunately, I entered a second childhood and started believing them again.     

Literature and other arts are ways of communicating that seem to strike some people very deeply and others barely at all.   Too many of us come through the western education system seeing reality in terms of cold stark facts and rationality of our intellects and minds rather than the deeper reality of our hearts.   An obituary of a stranger in a newspaper is a cold fact.  The funeral notice of a close friend or relative is potentially a hammer blow to our soul coupled with the soaring celebration of that person's life.  A birth notice of a stranger is a cold fact.  The birth of my first daughter is a earth-shaking emotional roller coaster of fear, excitement, joy, trepidation, and wonder that my life has forever changed.   We've often made walking with God a series of hard cold rules to follow and abide by rather than an awesome mind-blowing adventure of walking with the Creator of all things along paths that He intended for us before the creation of the world to show us things He has waited millennia to show.  We've often come to fear any type of excitement and passion as being our sin nature exerting itself rather than the possibility that it is our God-given heart and character starting to spring to life by abiding in the life-giving flow of love, grace, and mercy from the Almighty.  It was first in the John Eldredge book Waking the Dead that I ran across this idea and then found a forum (which no longer is around) full of like-minded people on an adventure to find who it was that God created them to be.  

It was partially through the arts as well as starting to rejoice in and not fear any type of communication other than cold established facts that my spiritual walk has started to soar in the past decade.  I used to see people (and myself) through the filter of fact and process, sinner, repentance, grace, salvation, discipleship, sanctification, gifts, talents, ministry, and ultimately fruit (or in other words, of what practical use am I to God or anyone else?).   I now see people as unique treasures and works of art being shaped by the Almighty to reflect His glory in unique ways to the world.  

[warrior12]

On 8/3/2018 at 7:56 AM, HisFirst said:

On 8/1/2018 at 6:03 PM, warrior12 said:

 

Anyone knows how to sharpen a knife and keep it sharp in the kitchen ???.   

No I don't sorry.

Hi, HisFirst.  I did not mean to sidetrack your thread with the question, it was something that was on my mind at the time and I just threw it in my reply.  My apologies for that.

You know what is said about a good book, " you just can't put it down".   This reminds me of growing up watching episodes of "Colombo", "Murder She Wrote" and other TV dramas.  You would look forward to the suspense and try to put your own take to the outcome before the end of the show.   It is fiction of course and when you have  been in spiritual warfare and understand the tactics the devil uses, I think you can classify fiction as playing with your mind.  

Now, I know a lot of people would say this and that about my statement I made here, but as I said, when you have been through the battles, a full picture of Satan stratagems emerges and  you see the world differently from the most people.  I thought hard  before I said what I said, but I have to speak the truth if it so, is it not.    Thomas Brooks wrote a wonderful book   titled " Precious remedies against satan devices" , that keeps reminding the Christian the strategies of our arch enemy .   Once the devil knows you have come to understand his schemes and plots to keep the believer on the thorny pasture, then the battle to keep the believer of track and to nibble at the bait goes on in subtle ways. 

Let me say, I personally have nothing against a person personal enjoyment and gratification, but the believer must be aware of the traps set on his pilgrimage as in the "The Pilgrims Progress". 

Edited August 5, 2018 by warrior12

[Fidei Defensor]

On 8/4/2018 at 7:15 PM, warrior12 said:

Hi, HisFirst.  I did not mean to sidetrack your thread with the question, it was something that was on my mind at the time and I just threw it in my reply.  My apologies for that.

You know what is said about a good book, " you just can't put it down".   This reminds me of growing up watching episodes of "Colombo", "Murder She Wrote" and other TV dramas.  You would look forward to the suspense and try to put your own take to the outcome before the end of the show.   It is fiction of course and when you have  been in spiritual warfare and understand the tactics the devil uses, I think you can classify fiction as playing with your mind.  

Now, I know a lot of people would say this and that about my statement I made here, but as I said, when you have been through the battles, a full picture of Satan stratagems emerges and  you see the world differently from the most people.  I thought hard  before I said what I said, but I have to speak the truth if it so, is it not.    Thomas Brooks wrote a wonderful book   titled " Precious remedies against satan devices" , that keeps reminding the Christian the strategies of our arch enemy .   Once the devil knows you have come to understand his schemes and plots to keep the believer on the thorny pasture, then the battle to keep the believer of track and to nibble at the bait goes on in subtle ways. 

Let me say, I personally have nothing against a person personal enjoyment and gratification, but the believer must be aware of the traps set on his pilgrimage as in the "The Pilgrims Progress". 

I actually read most of Pilgrim’s progress and after Mt. Calvary where Christian’s baggage falls off before the cross and rolls into the tomb, the Book leans towards works based gospel and gives the impression you have to be perfect and resist all temptation and struggle to the end of tribulation to be saved, when it is written “If you confess Jesus is Lord and Iyou believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead you are saved.” (Romans 10:9-10) and, “anyone who confesss Jesus as Son of God, Gid lives in them and they live in God.” (1 John 4:15). God reconciled us while we were sinners and enemies of God (Romans 5:4-12). Bunyan’s allegorical Pilgrim’s Progress on the contrary leaves the reader thinking you must be penitential and resist all snares. Here’s the real truth, we fall into snares all the time but our Savior Jesus Christ rescues us from fowler’s Snare with His blood and forgiveness of our sins (1 John 2:1-2). 

[warrior12]

5 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I actually read most of Pilgrim’s progress and after Mt. Calvary where Christian’s baggage falls off before the cross and rolls into the tomb, the Book leans towards works based gospel and gives the impression you have to be perfect and resist all temptation and struggle to the end of tribulation to be saved, when it is written “If you confess Jesus is Lord and Iyou believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead you are saved.” (Romans 10:9-10) and, “anyone who confesss Jesus as Son of God, Gid lives in them and they live in God.” (1 John 4:15). God reconciled us while we were sinners and enemies of God (Romans 5:4-12). Bunyan’s allegorical Pilgrim’s Progress on the contrary leaves the reader thinking you must be penitential and resist all snares. Here’s the real truth, we fall into snares all the time but our Savior Jesus Christ rescues us from fowler’s Snare with His blood and forgiveness of our sins (1 John 2:1-2). 

So, it's your impression or take from your reading.  The book at the early stages showed the diverse ways the enemy plots to get the  christian  to waver on his faith by fear and intimidation and infliction.  At the very beginning pages of the book, it demonstrated that faith was his motive in leaving all to follow the Lord, even wife and children [unbelievers].    The book is deeply spiritual and Mr. Bunyan knows about that realm. You only have to read one of his other masterpiece titled "The Holy War" to appreciate his insight into the spiritual world.

The Bible plainly admonishes the christian to be prepared as he thread on his pilgrimage as a soldier in the Lord's army.  He is to put on the full armor of God, Eph 6:12  and to watch out for the devil comes like a roaring lion seeking whom he can destroy.   

I have read Mr. Bunyan works and IMO, he has a very good understanding and have experienced spiritual warfare. I think, the Lord has blessed him tremendously to write the way he does and those who have and who goes through spiritual warfare would very much shake their heads in acknowledgement of his written works.  A biography of him would attest to his life one who struggled and understood the passage below.

1 Peter 5 King James Version (KJV)

⁸ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

⁹ Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

¹⁰ But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

[Fidei Defensor]

46 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

So, it's your impression or take from your reading.  The book at the early stages showed the diverse ways the enemy plots to get the  christian  to waver on his faith by fear and intimidation and infliction.  At the very beginning pages of the book, it demonstrated that faith was his motive in leaving all to follow the Lord, even wife and children [unbelievers].    The book is deeply spiritual and Mr. Bunyan knows about that realm. You only have to read one of his other masterpiece titled "The Holy War" to appreciate his insight into the spiritual world.

The Bible plainly admonishes the christian to be prepared as he thread on his pilgrimage as a soldier in the Lord's army.  He is to put on the full armor of God, Eph 6:12  and to watch out for the devil comes like a roaring lion seeking whom he can destroy.   

I have read Mr. Bunyan works and IMO, he has a very good understanding and have experienced spiritual warfare. I think, the Lord has blessed him tremendously to write the way he does and those who have and who goes through spiritual warfare would very much shake their heads in acknowledgement of his written works.  A biography of him would attest to his life one who struggled and understood the passage below.

1 Peter 5 King James Version (KJV)

⁸ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

⁹ Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

¹⁰ But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

I am of the position a believer cannot waver: 

“27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” (John 10:27-30),

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory,” (Ephesians 1:13-14),

“who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time,” (1 Peter 1:5),

“My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins,” (James 6:19-20),

“I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent,” (Revelation 2:4-5). 

I know all about the falling away from the faith (Matthew 24:10, 1 Timothy 5:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:4), Hebrews 6:4-6,  2 Peter 2:20-22, Matthew 7:21-22 (“Many say Lord Lord”), but I believe these people who fall away were never m sealed and baptized in the Spirit (Acts 8:14-17, Acts 19:1-11). The Third Person of the Trinity acts as hound keeping us from stepping into Hebrews 6:4-6, while Jesus and Father keep us in their hands at the same time: Because they are One God in Three Persons (John 14:26, John 15:26). 

There are Christians who convert intellectually and for prosperity And I believe they will fall away because their confession and conviction was shallow, they weren’t Born Again and Baptised in the Spirit so when the troubles come they fall away easily. 

“Perseverance of the saints

Perseverance of the saints (also referred to as eternal security or as once saved, always saved) is a teaching that asserts that once persons are truly "born of God" or "regenerated" by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nothing in heaven or earth "shall be able to separate (them) from the love of God" (Romans 8:39) resulting in a reversal of the converted condition.” (Wikipedia)

Edited August 22, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[warrior12]

8 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I am of the position a believer cannot waver: 

The "Pilgrims Progress" is exactly what your statement is about, but it also showed the trials and seducing spirits and the deceits that the Christian would face on his journey.   The main character named "Christian"  was depicted as the believer who would face the other characters like "obstinate, Mr. worldly wiseman, and Apollon.   He also had helpers, titled " Evangelist and Interpreter" to guide him and encourage him along the way.

He also had a companion who turned back, but he pressed on.  The main point, though is to show that he was on a mission of eternal life as he read in the scripture and Mr. Bunyan showed what the believer would face in the format he wrote.  It took an real imaginary mind and I believe a work of the Holy Spirit to put this to pen.  Christian persevered to  the end or his destination.

How you arrived to him doing "works" to achieve his salvation does not resonate with me.  You are a person who is well read and is versed in history as I have read in your many post and have regards for your knowledge. But I still cannot see where the reader would see a person who is portraying a works based salvation in the character of Christian in Pilgrims Progress.  

The tangible and intangible world is very real as I have experienced it and as the scripture verse so vividly expresses it.  A believer would go through many stages, trials and troubles to come to maturity and eat solid meat as Paul would say.  The Christian is a man of war, but not the kind that the carnal man knows.

 

Ephesians 6:12 King James Version (KJV)

¹² For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[Fidei Defensor]

2 hours ago, warrior12 said:

The "Pilgrims Progress" is exactly what your statement is about, but it also showed the trials and seducing spirits and the deceits that the Christian would face on his journey.   The main character named "Christian"  was depicted as the believer who would face the other characters like "obstinate, Mr. worldly wiseman, and Apollon.   He also had helpers, titled " Evangelist and Interpreter" to guide him and encourage him along the way.

He also had a companion who turned back, but he pressed on.  The main point, though is to show that he was on a mission of eternal life as he read in the scripture and Mr. Bunyan showed what the believer would face in the format he wrote.  It took an real imaginary mind and I believe a work of the Holy Spirit to put this to pen.  Christian persevered to  the end or his destination.

How you arrived to him doing "works" to achieve his salvation does not resonate with me.  You are a person who is well read and is versed in history as I have read in your many post and have regards for your knowledge. But I still cannot see where the reader would see a person who is portraying a works based salvation in the character of Christian in Pilgrims Progress.  

The tangible and intangible world is very real as I have experienced it and as the scripture verse so vividly expresses it.  A believer would go through many stages, trials and troubles to come to maturity and eat solid meat as Paul would say.  The Christian is a man of war, but not the kind that the carnal man knows.

 

Ephesians 6:12 King James Version (KJV)

¹² For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

I am glad the book resonated with you on a positive way. For me the Pilgrim’s Progress felt too focused on avoiding pitfalls than keeping your eyes fixed on Jesus (Hebrews 12:2). I did however love the Vanity Faire section where they enter the fairs selling everything (much like Rome and Jerusalem’s religious vendors).