Guest PinkBelt Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) 11 hours ago, AspiringChristian said: Sure, but the fact that they do not live according to biblical values is a problem that Christians should address. Nowhere in Scripture is it said that sinners should be allowed to persist in their sin. It is a Christian duty to our fellow men to try to bring them to Christ. For to love your neighbour means precisely to help them love God. But this is precisely the attitude that has got us here. In the past, immorality still existed - but it was looked down upon, the culture as a whole was against it. Sure, you could be a homosexual, but you had to hide it from everyone else. You could be an adulterer, but you had to keep it a secret. You could be a sexually promiscuous young man - but again, you would have to keep it a secret, or at least avoid talking about it. Nowadays, you can "show off" based on your immorality - you can wear your immorality with pride, instead of shame. This is the kind of shamelessness which screams to the heavens for justice. What are we supposed to do? Chase people down and yell? Pass draconian laws? Granted I'm 40 but I think I still have at least one toe in the pool of youth and I don't know anyone, man or woman, who boasts about promiscuity. In fact most young people I know, and I work with youth so that is a high number, see promiscuity as a huge red flag in terms of dating or marriage. Matthew 7:4-5 New International Version (NIV) 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Perhaps it is just me and a flaw in my thinking, but I never understood why so many Christians have such anxiety about other peoples sexual behavior. Far too many "Christians" have plenty of their own sexual immorality on display for the world to see, adultery and divorce being especially epidemic. How are we to suggest to others how to live when we can't even hold ourselves to the same standards? We certainly don't hold our prominent leaders to account and we elect leaders who openly brag about their cheating and sexual indiscretions. I personally try to be as good a living witness as I can possibly be and tell any interested parties why I do what I do. Anything else in terms of personal sin and accountability on their part is in God's hands. Edited August 13, 2018 by PinkBelt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted August 13, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 13, 2018 well you know it's taking God out of all things societal and replacing Him with, in many ways, Hollywood people are right though. you cannot expect non Christians to act like Christians sadly many who themself Christian do not supply a very convincing life style either I don't think we can blame the devil for the slide of Christians into immoral lifestyles...it's a complicated mess with a simple answer that has been rejected by most Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AspiringChristian Posted August 14, 2018 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 18 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/11/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 21 hours ago, Neighbor said: All the shaming is a waste of time. The sinner sees no shame in their sin. I agree that they don't see any shame in their sin. But the question is, why don't they? I think that one reason they don't see any shame in their sin is because they take it as something normal and acceptable in society. Because social norms with regards to sexual morality have gotten so lax, they are no longer uncomfortable about their behaviour, and openly share it with just about anyone. I think this is precisely the diseased state of our society in the present. I should not even mention that certain business organisations - take for instance Ashley Madison, promoting and earning money based on adultery - should be outlawed. 22 hours ago, Neighbor said: God saves, not any man, no man is saved by another. Yes, of course only God saves, but God can act through other men - let's not forget that. For example, C.S. Lewis was greatly helped in coming to the faith by reading G.K. Chesterton and being affiliated with the likes of J.R.R. Tolkien. Even in the Bible we have instances of men performing miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit. Of course all power and glory comes from our Heavenly Father, but that's not an excuse for us to sit around satisfied that we cannot save any men (or women) and thus should not even try. 22 hours ago, Neighbor said: Their sin is theirs to come to hate, and for God to wash away making them washed white as snow. I agree, but this implies that they need to repent. Repentance involves understanding the gravity of the sin, and changing ones ways along with seeking forgiveness. 22 hours ago, Neighbor said: The saints I think are more productive when sharing of light first and not standing condemning the darkness. Just my own thought. It is easier to attract even flies with honey that it is with vinegar, and perhaps far more productive. I think that currently the consciousness of sin does not lead to salvation because it's seen as illegitimate - ie, a means of oppressing and controlling others, instead of authentic guilt. What could we do to remedy this situation? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AspiringChristian Posted August 14, 2018 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 18 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/11/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 12 hours ago, Cletus said: The bible tells us what its going to be like in the last days. Matthew 24:36? 12 hours ago, Cletus said: The bible tells us what its going to be like in the last days. there is zero scriptures that say society will get any better. my point was its futile to think we are going to change that when Gods written word tells us about the great falling away, which is unfolding before us now... it tells us the love of many will grow cold and that man will be without natural affection. these are clues as to how the majority of society will be. not everyone is going to accept Jesus, and Godlessness will be prevalent, as in the days of Noah. The book says our own family members will betray us, just as Judas betrayed Jesus. The Book tells us the great tribulation will be a time worse than any other time on earth. consider the holocaust. consider thru out time all the genocides, even whats happening in africa now, consider the book of lamentations where it says mothers cooked and ate their own babies. Just wondering, what scriptures can you point to that says society has hope as a whole? what scriptures can you point to that says Spirit filled believers will turn the tide in the last days? What scriptures can you point to that says we have the power to change any of this? because The Book says God will give them over to strong delusion... is that not evident He has already been doing this? Yes, the Bible does tell us what it will be like in the Last Days, but at the same time it also warns us that no man knows when the Last Days will have come. If we look through history, we're not at the worst point in history in terms of morality now. It is our duty as Christians to be soldiers for Christ, spread the Gospels, and through the power of the Holy Spirit bring as many as we can to Christ. It is not like we have been left powerless, just waiting and not being able to do anything. I think the Christian thing to do is precisely less focus on one's self, and more focus on helping others. Mercy and forgiveness, such as Jesus forgiving the woman who had committed adultery, seem to work in bringing repentance in a society where the social structures already help guide one's conscience towards the understanding of their own sin, which can bring about repentance. But in a society like ours, straight up forgiving in the absence of repentance often brings about repeated sinning. Matthew 10:16 - "be as shrewd as serpents and as innocent as doves". I think that the continuation of this immoral culture is possible because too many Christians are sitting down, content to simply live THEIR OWN lives as Christians, instead of trying to do something about the situation. We may not succeed - success may be outside of our grasp, and indeed it may be God's will that we fail. But that is not a reason not to at least try. I see many good Christians, and just good people today being ashamed of what they believe in. They are ashamed to tell their immoral friend, for example, that what they're doing is wrong, and they cannot accept it. While the secular crowd is not afraid to try to push Christians to licentious behaviour, drunkenness, and vice, Christians are shy about preaching virtue. Why is that? Why is it acceptable to brag about one's sexual exploits, but not acceptable to brag about one's sexual morality? Clearly we have to undertake some action against these diseased social structures which keep spreading and affecting more and more people negatively. Many people have not even been given the chance to hear an alternative - how a virtuous life could be. Christians most definitely aren't on this Earth merely to finish their lives and go to God - no, we are on this Earth as creatures in the image of God, co-creators, called to participate in Creation, and use our efforts and work for the betterment of nature and society. I may be wrong about this, in which case please correct me, but this is what I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AspiringChristian Posted August 14, 2018 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 18 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/11/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 15 hours ago, PinkBelt said: Perhaps it is just me and a flaw in my thinking, but I never understood why so many Christians have such anxiety about other peoples sexual behavior. Why is it an issue to be anxious about a problem in our society? Afterall, we have to live in this society, and it affects us and poisons our minds. If I am concerned about the prevalent opioid use, or people's eating habits which lead to obesity, that is all well and nice, I'm a great citizen. But as soon as I am concerned about other people's sexual behaviour, then I am seen as being deranged, as if it was everyone's right to choose how to behave sexually. But, by its very nature, sexual behaviour (apart from masturbation) is a social activity, and involves and affects other people. It is absolutely rational to be concerned with the sexual behaviour of others even more than to be concerned with their eating habits - at least one who eats toxic food only harms oneself, but one who engages in sexual immorality (apart from masturbation) harms others too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted August 14, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 951 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,567 Content Per Day: 5.03 Reputation: 9,045 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted August 14, 2018 These various "concerns" are manifestations of one sin, the disobedience of God. To concentrate on one manifestation simply allows others free reign over the day. Much like David's sin of disobedience of God's instruction to him leading to his then seeing and craving the wife of another which led to killing her husband by ordering his death to occur, it is not sexual disire that is the sin, it is disobedience of God. All else is downstream of the real problem that must be tended to. Obey God, do all things to His glory, praise Him in all matters big and small, ask His council, seek His word for guidance, pray and think upon the word. Share of and teach that and all else falls away. Instill the positive and the negative has no room to flourish in one's life. Teach sharing the do's not the don'ts, for the do's give encouragement while the don'ts only entertain more fear, and brings about defeat after defeat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PinkBelt Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 20 minutes ago, AspiringChristian said: Why is it an issue to be anxious about a problem in our society? Afterall, we have to live in this society, and it affects us and poisons our minds. If I am concerned about the prevalent opioid use, or people's eating habits which lead to obesity, that is all well and nice, I'm a great citizen. But as soon as I am concerned about other people's sexual behaviour, then I am seen as being deranged, as if it was everyone's right to choose how to behave sexually. But, by its very nature, sexual behaviour (apart from masturbation) is a social activity, and involves and affects other people. It is absolutely rational to be concerned with the sexual behaviour of others even more than to be concerned with their eating habits - at least one who eats toxic food only harms oneself, but one who engages in sexual immorality (apart from masturbation) harms others too. Because society, quite rightly, see's the vastly disproportionate concern "Christians" have for private sexual behavior. If "Christians" actually were as concerned about drug use, poverty, homelessness and numerous other serious societal ills perhaps they would take us seriously on the sexual ones. I have been in the car with "Christians" as they drive by a whole stream of homeless people eating out of dumpsters without batting an eyelash and then lose their minds when they pass one gay couple. People aren't stupid and can tell when we are not living up to our own professed Christian values. I think "Christians" concerns with sex come far more from personal prudishness and dislike for out groups than concerns for sin. The bible condemns adultery and divorce quite strongly and those issues are epidemic in the church. So instead of wondering why people who aren't Christians anyway don't live according to Christian values, perhaps we should figure out why those who claim they ARE Christians don't first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AspiringChristian Posted August 14, 2018 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 18 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/11/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, Neighbor said: Much like David's sin of disobedience of God's instruction to him leading to his then seeing and craving the wife of another which led to killing her husband by ordering his death to occur, it is not sexual disire that is the sin, it is disobedience of God. All else is downstream of the real problem that must be tended to. Obey God, do all things to His glory, praise Him in all matters big and small, ask His council, seek His word for guidance, pray and think upon the word. Share of and teach that and all else falls away. Instill the positive and the negative has no room to flourish in one's life. Teach sharing the do's not the don'ts, for the do's give encouragement while the don'ts only entertain more fear, and brings about defeat after defeat. Hi Neighbor, thanks for sharing. I find your perspective very interesting, even though I'm not sure that I fully agree. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that obeying God is at the heart of the Christian faith. I have one comment, and one question. First the comment: I would have thought that loving God with all of one's heart and loving one's neighbour as one's self are the heart of the Christian faith, as shown through the life of Christ, His Person, and His teachings. Obedience to God as such is secondary, and emerges out of loving God. And loving God is loving one's self, because it is only in this relationship to the Divine that one's self really exists as a person, instead of merely as a self-enclosed ego. So of course, loving God helps one put one's self-love and neighbor-love in their right proportions. To me, it seems that it is Islam, not Christianity, which emphasises this obedience to God more than love of God. Now the question: If you are correct, and all sin emerges from disobedience, then what is it that brings about obedience to God? As St. Paul writes, I know what is good, but I still do what is evil. 11 minutes ago, Neighbor said: Instill the positive and the negative has no room to flourish in one's life. How do you justify this assertion? Why do you reckon that instilling the positive is sufficient? I think accepting limitation is part and parcel of having the positive in the first place. It is the Serpent's inability to accept his limitation as a finite creature, and not as God, that leads him to commit the very first sin. Limitation is actually the key to having freedom. A child who is in a well-designed playground, which has all the necessary limits, is free to play as he pleases, since nothing he can do will bring about any harm to him. He is entirely free to be creative. Whereas a child in a defective playground, which lacks fences, and limits, is always at risk of injuring himself, and thus cannot afford to be as free as the other one. 13 minutes ago, Neighbor said: Teach sharing the do's not the don'ts, for the do's give encouragement while the don'ts only entertain more fear, and brings about defeat after defeat. Is fear of the Lord essential in living a Christian life? Why do you reckon the do's are more important than the don'ts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AspiringChristian Posted August 14, 2018 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 18 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/11/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 7 minutes ago, Cletus said: to many Christians are not sitting down, they have abandoned their posts. as I said God is bringing some back to Him. I do not see how you can say someone is a good Christian because they are ashamed in the gospel or in Jesus. And what good Christian is friends with those in darkness? The book says there is no fellowship between light and dark. So what exactly are they doing when they associate? If someone is keeping friends with immoral people and they are ashamed to speak the truth... how good of a friend are they to them? How good of a christian are they really? These Christians you are calling good... those are the ones God is calling back to Him. they are not close to Him. I agree with this! 7 minutes ago, Cletus said: As far as co-creators... i dont even know where you are coming from with that. no human and no angel helped God create anything. God created it all by Himself. and i dont see anywhere in the bible where we are called to labor in the betterment of nature and society. Where did you get that from? Not the bible. Why did God create human beings in the first place? Were human beings not supposed to work to subdue the Earth and continue the process of Creation that God has started? What does it mean for human beings to be "in the image of God"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AspiringChristian Posted August 14, 2018 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 18 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/11/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 13 minutes ago, PinkBelt said: So instead of wondering why people who aren't Christians anyway don't live according to Christian values, perhaps we should figure out why those who claim they ARE Christians don't first? Sure, solving the general social problem requires that we also, in the process, solve the problem for Christians. So what is your answer to your own question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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