ARGOSY Posted March 28, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 28, 2019 41 minutes ago, iamlamad said: If you imagine it is smoothly, then it is good in your mind. For millions of pretribbers it is anything but "smooth." One tiny example: you will miss the marriage and supper. In your theory, the entire church will miss these two events. Please give more examples because the marriage supper isn't a good one. We miss the wrath, the winepress of wrath outside Jerusalem which occurs to the attacking armies on the day of the Lord. This means we get raptured earlier on that day, we have the feast, then later on we join the heavenly army. Nothing complicated , we won't miss any feast if we enter the tribulation, don't worry LaMad. You will be fed ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted March 28, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2019 11 hours ago, Da Puppers said: You admit that Rev 11:15 says that "When I was at a closing, the property legally became MINE at the closing. But I wasnot there at the property I did not go there until the next day. " And then turn around and deny it to be true, and say, " Your double minded-ness is obvious for all to see. Blessings The PuP I don't understand your thinking at all. Rev. 11:15 is the legal process - to be equated with a closing for a new house here. LEGALLY the property becomes mine. But consider, the previous owner may have LEASED the property to a third party. At the closing I have to agree to allow that lease to expire before I can take possession. These kinds of transactions happen all the time: like a big apartment complex changing legal owners. The truth is, God has PROMISED in writing to give the BEAST 42 months of authority. Do you imagine God will back out of that deal? Not a chance! The truth is, ADAM'S 6000 year lease EXPIRES at the 7th trumpet. That is why LEGALLY Satan looses the kingdoms and Jesus gains them - in a LEGAL transaction. But God has promised the Beast his 42 months, and those 42 months START at the 7th trumpet. Go ahead: tell us all HOW Jesus starts His earthly kingdom with the Beast reigning for 42 months. I hope you can explain this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted March 28, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2019 12 hours ago, ARGOSY said: Please give more examples because the marriage supper isn't a good one. We miss the wrath, the winepress of wrath outside Jerusalem which occurs to the attacking armies on the day of the Lord. This means we get raptured earlier on that day, we have the feast, then later on we join the heavenly army. Nothing complicated , we won't miss any feast if we enter the tribulation, don't worry LaMad. You will be fed ? It is very simple: it is a GREAT example: John shows us the TIME For the marriage and supper comes IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. For a posttriber then, the marriage and supper are finished before any dead in Christ is caught up. How to some posttribbers get around this? Oh, EASY for them: they just move the marriage and supper to a later time, in effect CHANGING what is written. The winepress comes late in second half of the week. the church is raptured before the week begins. No born again person will see this winepress - unless on a screen from heaven! I don't know where you come up with your theories, for it certainly is not scriptural. there is simply NO WAY to come up with your theory from 1 Thes. 4 & 5. I can only guess, you are using verses NOT ABOUT the rapture as if they were about the rapture. By the way, I would have said "IN the day of the Lord" not "on," for on gives the impression the day just started. No, John starts the Day of the Lord before he starts the 70th week. the entire 70th week is INSIDE the Day of the Lord. then the week ends, but the DAY continues. we get raptured earlier on that day, we have the feast So show us this sequence by scripture - not by imagination! Are you saying Jesus comes TWICE in one day? Show us scripture! John shows us the marriage, THEN the supper and THEN Jesus descending. No rapture to be seen ANYWHERE in Rev. 19. You have ad libbed that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted March 28, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2019 13 hours ago, ARGOSY said: You don't see a potential problem with two of everything? ??? Let me tell you a secret. The way that you know if separate prophecies are referring to the same moment is when a number of events overlap. In 2 Thess 1 Paul tells believers to expect their relief from persecution at the second coming, a day of fire and destruction, so add destruction to that list of events occurring twice in your view. I cannot equate all the "comings" of our Lord into one coming. There are just too many differences. Therefore I believe in TWO more comings. I believe very strongly that rearranging Revelation to fit a theory will end up being a wrong theory. I won't rearrange. Therefore, when I see some event happen in the seals, I KNOW that it cannot be the same event that will happen after the days of great tribulation. It is simply impossible. No, I don't see a problem. I take scripture as it reads, and try to understand it. 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; I see no conflict here with my belief: I think our "rest" is not going to be complete until justice prevails and judgment is accomplished. I don't think the church has to be on the earth at this time by reading this verse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 28, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 28, 2019 11 minutes ago, iamlamad said: It is very simple: it is a GREAT example: John shows us the TIME For the marriage and supper comes IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends. For a posttriber then, the marriage and supper are finished before any dead in Christ is caught up. How to some posttribbers get around this? Oh, EASY for them: they just move the marriage and supper to a later time, in effect CHANGING what is written. The winepress comes late in second half of the week. the church is raptured before the week begins. No born again person will see this winepress - unless on a screen from heaven! I don't know where you come up with your theories, for it certainly is not scriptural. there is simply NO WAY to come up with your theory from 1 Thes. 4 & 5. I can only guess, you are using verses NOT ABOUT the rapture as if they were about the rapture. By the way, I would have said "IN the day of the Lord" not "on," for on gives the impression the day just started. No, John starts the Day of the Lord before he starts the 70th week. the entire 70th week is INSIDE the Day of the Lord. then the week ends, but the DAY continues. we get raptured earlier on that day, we have the feast So show us this sequence by scripture - not by imagination! Are you saying Jesus comes TWICE in one day? Show us scripture! John shows us the marriage, THEN the supper and THEN Jesus descending. No rapture to be seen ANYWHERE in Rev. 19. You have ad libbed that part. Yes you think Jesus comes twice in about 7 years, I think he comes twice in one day. Before the war he raptures us into the clouds then we have the feast then come down with the heavenly army. Time is relative, time slows down for astronauts. How much more so in heaven, we could have a nice long feast there for many hours, and then be coming back to Armageddon in the heavenly army and only half an hour has passed. I have been showing you many verses that place our rapture/relief on that day of destruction. Yes 1 Thess 4/5 and 2 Thess 1 are just two examples of that theme. Even if we disagree I appreciate your Christian fruits in these discussions, its good to see guys like you and a few others having decent chats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted March 28, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted March 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, iamlamad said: I cannot equate all the "comings" of our Lord into one coming. There are just too many differences. Therefore I believe in TWO more comings. I believe very strongly that rearranging Revelation to fit a theory will end up being a wrong theory. I won't rearrange. Therefore, when I see some event happen in the seals, I KNOW that it cannot be the same event that will happen after the days of great tribulation. It is simply impossible. No, I don't see a problem. I take scripture as it reads, and try to understand it. 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; I see no conflict here with my belief: I think our "rest" is not going to be complete until justice prevails and judgment is accomplished. I don't think the church has to be on the earth at this time by reading this verse. If you read earlier, they rest from persecution, so the persecution occurs up until the second coming which is a day of fire and destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted March 28, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2019 58 minutes ago, Da Puppers said: For starters we turn to the KOH parable of the tares: Verse list: Mat 13:41-43 KJV The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall GATHER OUT of his KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. As, I have shown earlier, the KOH is the time in which the king, Jesus, rules over his subjects, in absentia. In this parable, the field is the world, and the "his barn" is his kingdom. His kingdom is the physical kingdom of God. *[[Mat 13:30]] KJV* Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. The gathering of the wheat is the gathering of the elect... the children of the kingdom, *[[Mat 24:31]] KJV* And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. *[[Isa 11:11]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. This brings us to the sounding of the 7th trumpet when the past (dead) saints and prophets receive their reward... the everlasting kingdom. Except that we still find ourselves in the government of the KOH, in absence of our king Jesus... Mat 8:11-12 KJV And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The living saints (elect) of the children of Israel, will be gathered to the edge of the kingdom (in the wilderness) until they are ready to enter the everlasting kingdom. Verse list: Eze 20:35-38 KJV And I will BRING YOU INTO THE WILDERNESS of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Eze 20:42-44 KJV And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the LAND OF ISRAEL , into the COUNTRY for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to YOUR FATHERS. And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. The kingdom of the beast is the land that surrounds the kingdom of Israel, but does not include Israel (as that kingdom of God) because Jesus has removed from his kingdom all those unworthy and unfit for thee kingdom: *[[Mat 13:41]] KJV* The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; These children, because they are initially unprepared for the kingdom, will be given unto the beast for 42 months, also equal to this: *[[Dan 7:25]] KJV* And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Three years equals 37 or 38 lunar months on a Jewish calendar. The 42 months of Rev 13 is equal to 3 years and 4 or 5 months. This is why Daniel said "... and a DIVIDING of time..." and not HALF a time, found there in Daniel 7. May the Lord open your heart to receive the truth. Blessings The PuP Pup, if you are saying when the 7th trumpet sounds at the end of the 42 months of the Beast rule, then the Jews hidden in the wildnerness will be gathered to return to Israel (after Armageddon) , then I agree with you, that is how I see it. Is that what you are saying? Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted March 28, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2019 5 hours ago, Da Puppers said: For starters we turn to the KOH parable of the tares: Verse list: Mat 13:41-43 KJV The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall GATHER OUT of his KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. As, I have shown earlier, the KOH is the time in which the king, Jesus, rules over his subjects, in absentia. In this parable, the field is the world, and the "his barn" is his kingdom. His kingdom is the physical kingdom of God. *[[Mat 13:30]] KJV* Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. The gathering of the wheat is the gathering of the elect... the children of the kingdom, *[[Mat 24:31]] KJV* And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. *[[Isa 11:11]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. This brings us to the sounding of the 7th trumpet when the past (dead) saints and prophets receive their reward... the everlasting kingdom. Except that we still find ourselves in the government of the KOH, in absence of our king Jesus... Mat 8:11-12 KJV And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The living saints (elect) of the children of Israel, will be gathered to the edge of the kingdom (in the wilderness) until they are ready to enter the everlasting kingdom. Verse list: Eze 20:35-38 KJV And I will BRING YOU INTO THE WILDERNESS of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. Eze 20:42-44 KJV And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the LAND OF ISRAEL , into the COUNTRY for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to YOUR FATHERS. And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. The kingdom of the beast is the land that surrounds the kingdom of Israel, but does not include Israel (as that kingdom of God) because Jesus has removed from his kingdom all those unworthy and unfit for thee kingdom: *[[Mat 13:41]] KJV* The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; These children, because they are initially unprepared for the kingdom, will be given unto the beast for 42 months, also equal to this: *[[Dan 7:25]] KJV* And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Three years equals 37 or 38 lunar months on a Jewish calendar. The 42 months of Rev 13 is equal to 3 years and 4 or 5 months. This is why Daniel said "... and a DIVIDING of time..." and not HALF a time, found there in Daniel 7. May the Lord open your heart to receive the truth. Blessings The PuP the king, Jesus, rules over his subjects, in absentia. OK, So you have convcinced me: at the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of the world belong to Jesus. You say He rules - but most of the world at that time have rejected Him. WHO then will He rule over? I guess, if you cast people into the lake of fire, you are ruling over them. So Jesus "rules" over the world, according to you, but turns the world over to the Beast. I guess that is still "ruling" because it is God that grants the 42 months. I followed you right up to this point: "This brings us to the sounding of the 7th trumpet when the past (dead) saints and prophets receive their reward... the everlasting kingdom. " Sorry, but your timing seems way off. Can you show us where you start the 70th week, where the midpoint is, and where you end it? I see the 7th trumpet marking the midpoint of the week. I see the rewards as handed out at the setting up of the Millennial kingdom: some get one city, others get ten cites, ETC. If they receive any rewards at the 7th trumpet, perhaps it is a crown. But since the rapture comes before the week, why wait 3.5 years to the 7th trumpet to give a reward? I am not following you at all. The days of great tribulation are still ahead at the 7th trumpet. Jesus will not return until probably 1290 days. Where on your timeline do you see Isaiah 11:11 fitting? Where on your timeline do you see the Old Testament saints rise? The living saints (elect) of the children of Israel, will be gathered to the edge of the kingdom (in the wilderness) until they are ready to enter the everlasting kingdom. Can you espand on verses 35-38? What does he mean by the wilderness OF THE PEOPLE? The kingdom of the beast is the land that surrounds the kingdom of Israel, but does not include Israel (as that kingdom of God) because Jesus has removed from his kingdom all those unworthy and unfit for thee kingdom: Oh my! Did you not know that the Beast and False prophet will RULE THE WORLD from Jerusalem? He, the beast is given authority over all the kingdoms of the world, including Israel. *[[Mat 13:41]] KJV* The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom WHEN do you see this taking place? I see it as happened as He is descending to Armageddon. When then, do you see this parable of the tares happening? If it is before the Beast is taken and before the mellennial Kingdom is set up, then this proves your point: the kingdom begins at the 7th trumpet. Only it begins without Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted March 28, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2019 7 hours ago, ARGOSY said: If you read earlier, they rest from persecution, so the persecution occurs up until the second coming which is a day of fire and destruction. The church is done with persecution at the pretrib rapture. So they get 7 years of "rest." I don't see this the way you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted March 29, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 29, 2019 10 hours ago, ARGOSY said: Yes you think Jesus comes twice in about 7 years, I think he comes twice in one day. Before the war he raptures us into the clouds then we have the feast then come down with the heavenly army. Time is relative, time slows down for astronauts. How much more so in heaven, we could have a nice long feast there for many hours, and then be coming back to Armageddon in the heavenly army and only half an hour has passed. I have been showing you many verses that place our rapture/relief on that day of destruction. Yes 1 Thess 4/5 and 2 Thess 1 are just two examples of that theme. Even if we disagree I appreciate your Christian fruits in these discussions, its good to see guys like you and a few others having decent chats. Twice in one day. That is a new one - never heard it before. And you imagine the feast is in the clouds? Well, we will wait and see. I am not the kind of guy that will look you up and tell you how wrong you were! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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