The Restrainer.....Who....When

[Spock]

8 hours ago, Michael37 said:

You might want to edit that, Spock man.

Thanks.

btw, my friends call me Mr Spock......

[Spock]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Much there to agree with, however there is point concerning the wrath of God. I`ve got the 26 translations of the Bible, and here are some of them regarding Rev. 15: 1.

`And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues;

....the seven last punishments -

for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

`...in them is finished the wrath of God,

....with them the Wrath of God is ended..

...in them the wrath of God has reached a climax,

...by which the vengeance of God is finally achieved,

...with them God`s wrath (indignation) is completely expressed.

...reaches its climax and is ended.

 

So to me the 7 bowls of wrath just complete God`s wrath, not start it.

Marilyn.

 

I agree the 7 bowls complete it, the 7trumpets begins it. 

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Your timing of the revealing is correct. 3.5 years before the end the antichrist is revealed and comes to power. The description of the deceiving signs associated with his revealing in 2 Thess 2 matches the description of the deceiving signs of the start of the beast's reign in Rev 13. In Rev 13 this occurs 42 months before the end.

You don't need to agree with me, I just want you to ponder on two other facts:

1) In 2 Thess 2 the lawlessness is ALREADY THERE, and the antichrist is ALREADY THERE, the restrainer is not restraining lawlessness, but is restraining the revealing. He is keeping dark secrets of lawlessness, and the identity of the antichrist a secret. In fact most of 2 Thess 2 is a contrast between the mystery/secret and then a sudden revealing. Something dark is keeping dark secrets and needs to be REMOVED in a great victory , and then Satan will be EXPOSED.

2) Rev 12 describes a great victory of the gospel and then Satan is forcibly REMOVED from his place in heaven, and exposes himself in full wrath on earth for 3.5 years.  This event being exactly 1260 days before the end, is EXACTLY the same moment as the antichrist comes to power  (if we see the 42 months  as 42 x 30 day months).

That is something to ponder over, unless there is another entity ALSO being removed on the same day, it appears Satan is the one restraining the revealing of the antichrist, and Satan is the one who is forcibly removed, allowing all evil to be exposed/revealed to the church for the final 3.5 years.  

I disagree. Satan does not restrain evil - he IS evil. he can be nothing BUT evil. GOD restrains evil.

[Spock]

6 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Your timing of the revealing is correct. 3.5 years before the end the antichrist is revealed and comes to power. The description of the deceiving signs associated with his revealing in 2 Thess 2 matches the description of the deceiving signs of the start of the beast's reign in Rev 13. In Rev 13 this occurs 42 months before the end.

You don't need to agree with me, I just want you to ponder on two other facts:

1) In 2 Thess 2 the lawlessness is ALREADY THERE, and the antichrist is ALREADY THERE, the restrainer is not restraining lawlessness, but is restraining the revealing. He is keeping dark secrets of lawlessness, and the identity of the antichrist a secret. In fact most of 2 Thess 2 is a contrast between the mystery/secret and then a sudden revealing. Something dark is keeping dark secrets and needs to be REMOVED in a great victory , and then Satan will be EXPOSED.

2) Rev 12 describes a great victory of the gospel and then Satan is forcibly REMOVED from his place in heaven, and exposes himself in full wrath on earth for 3.5 years.  This event being exactly 1260 days before the end, is EXACTLY the same moment as the antichrist comes to power  (if we see the 42 months  as 42 x 30 day months).

That is something to ponder over, unless there is another entity ALSO being removed on the same day, it appears Satan is the one restraining the revealing of the antichrist, and Satan is the one who is forcibly removed, allowing all evil to be exposed/revealed to the church for the final 3.5 years.  

Wow, very profound brother Argosy. Clap clap

i like how you correlated the fall of Satan at the removal of his heavenly position as working together with the man of lawlessness being revealed. Let’s think about this....

i believe the man of lawlessness receives a fatal knife wound probably just before the AOD. At that point I believe the man of lawlessness becomes the BEAST which I think is when Satan or some powerful demonic being begins ruling over his body. 

So, the RESTRAINT is now over with at the same time Satan is thrown down to planet earth. So, it sounds like you believe it is when Satan decides to come into the man of lawlessness just like he did to Judas is when the restraint ended. 

Having said this, then it seems to me it is God who is holding Satan back until He decides it is time.  He then kicks him out of Heaven. So, to follow up your thought, the REVEALING will occur only when Satan is given permission by God to enter the man EXACTLY like how it happened when Satan entered Judas. I don’t believe Satan entered Judas randomly, but rather only when God deemed it time. God did not allow this until He said it is time, so God would not allow the man of lawlessness to be the Beast until God says it is time.

To conclude this, your post seems logical but I believe you have to tie it all back to the original source....God!  He is the one with the power and events don’t happen until He allows for it. Again....see the Judas betrayal as evidence. 

is this pretty much what you are saying?  I like this spin because it puts the restraining on God, not really on Satan. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Spock

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Marilyn, please ponder over 2 Thess 2. The lawlesness and the antichrist are already there. It is not lawlessness or evil being restrained at all.

Context is clear that it is the revealing that is being restrained. The mystery/secret of lawlessness is already there, but the restrainer (of the revealing) needs to be removed first before the revealing occurs.  It is therefore entirely possible that the restrainer is an evil entity, one that is keeping mysteries and secrets, one that is HIDING the identity of the antichrist, and is HIDING the source of lawlessness.  Even when I realised this one day, it took me a long time to understand these basics that are actually clear in the text. 

This is real simple: God decreed (probably before earth was created) that the man of sin would be revealed at the exact midpoint of the week - the time of the abomination.  He therefore would prevent the man of sin from entering the temple until the right time. HOW? He would RESTAIN or hold back that revealing. God has no authority on earth EXCEPT for His church: He gave US the authority on earth. So God uses the church for this restraining force.  

What is the THEME of this passage? It is the gathering. It is just common sense then that the gathering would be a major factor in the passage - and it is. But Paul disguised it as a restraining force that is to be taken out of the way - in the one word, "apostasia"  - the departing [of the church].  

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi JoeCanada,

To me only God can restrain evil, none other has that overarching authority. All others get their authority from God.

It will occur when the Body of Christ purpose is taken out of the way, and then the Lord will execute the judgements of the Father upon the rebellious.

Marilyn.

Finally, Marilyn! Something we agree on! Hallelujah!

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Much there to agree with, however there is point concerning the wrath of God. I`ve got the 26 translations of the Bible, and here are some of them regarding Rev. 15: 1.

`And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues;

....the seven last punishments -

for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

`...in them is finished the wrath of God,

....with them the Wrath of God is ended..

...in them the wrath of God has reached a climax,

...by which the vengeance of God is finally achieved,

...with them God`s wrath (indignation) is completely expressed.

...reaches its climax and is ended.

 

So to me the 7 bowls of wrath just complete God`s wrath, not start it.

Marilyn.

 

I wonder: do you think Jesus has wrath when He comes to the battle of Armageddon? That would be AFTER the bowls.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Spock said:

One thing not talked about much on this thread is this.....

I believe Paul is saying two things PRECEDE the DOTL....

1. The rebellion/apostasy

2. The man of lawlessness is REVEALED/UNCOVERED

Okay, after pondering this much I do believe the man of lawlessness is uncovered/revealed at the abomination of desolation.....not the signing of some peace treaty. 

I say this because at that time (peace treaty) the world is going to see a different face on him. The world will be enamored with his charisma and ability to get things done, and of course, usher in peace in the Middle East. Not an easy task. So, I believe his true side will come out and be REVEALED/UNCOVERED when he steps into the temple and demands worship.

so, what does this mean? It means the wrath of God cannot be unleashed until the man of lawlessness steps foot into that rebuilt temple. Remember Paul said, these two things PRECEDE the DOTL. (I didn’t say it, he did.)

Wrath=trumpets and bowls (begins at the 7th seal, see Rev 8:1-5

okay Church......let me have it. 

Mr Spock: if we get into Greek word tenses, things appear a little different that with a first reading of this passage in 2 Thes. 2. 

In other words, those folks thought they were IN the Day of the Lord - not that it was imminent. 

Paul's argument is - when someone SEES the man of sin revealed (enter the temple and declare he is God) then they will know, the Day has already started and they are IN IT.

Your statement then, "PRECEDE" is not accurate.  

1. The apostasia or the departing [of the church as in the rapture or gathering] will certainly precede the man of sin entering the temple.

2. When the man of lawlessness is revealed, the week will have started and they will be IN IT. 

So only ONE THING comes "FIRST" as per Paul: the departing must come first. 

When the man of sin is revealed, the week will have started and then all will KNOW they are in the Day of the Lord. Those people THOUGHT they were in the Day and apparently wrote to Paul for clarification. He showed them how anyone can KNOW they are in the Day of the Lord.

By the way, this fits perfectly with Revelation: the week starts at the 7th seal, and the midpoint is the 7th trumpet - so when the 7th trumpet comes, and the man of sin enters the temple, all will have proof positive that the DAY has started. Keep in mind, Paul wrote his letter LONG before John wrote Revelation.

[ARGOSY]

13 minutes ago, Spock said:

Wow, very profound brother Argosy. Clap clap

i like how you correlated the fall of Satan at the removal of his heavenly position as working together with the man of lawlessness being revealed. Let’s think about this....

i believe the man of lawlessness receives a fatal knife wound probably just before the AOD. At that point I believe the man of lawlessness becomes the BEAST which I think is when Satan or some powerful demonic being begins ruling over his body. 

So, the RESTRAINT is now over with at the same time Satan is thrown down to planet earth. So, it sounds like you believe it is when Satan decides to come into the man of lawlessness just like he did to Judas is when the restraint ended. 

Having said this, then it seems to me it is God who is holding Satan back until He decides it is time.  He then kicks him out of Heaven. So, to follow up your thought, the REVEALING will occur only when Satan is given permission by God to enter the man EXACTLY like how it happened when Satan entered Judas. I don’t believe Satan entered Judas randomly, but rather only when God deemed it time. God did not allow this until He said it is time, so God would not allow the man of lawlessness to be the Beast until God says it is time.

To conclude this, your post seems logical but I believe you have to tie it all back to the original source....God!  He is the one with the power and events don’t happen until He allows for it. Again....see the Judas betrayal as evidence. 

is this pretty much what you are saying?  I like this spin because it puts the restraining on God, not really on Satan. 

Well I don't see the need to diminish the work of Satan , Satan is a reality , and does actually do evil things, we shouldn't be in denial that he can be involved here and there.  Keeping dark secrets of lawlessness a secret and the identity of the antichrist secret is not elevating him that much, its something he would do. 

Where God comes into the picture is that it is US the church who control the timing. We have this great victory of our testimony as described in Rev 12, that causes the fall of Satan and forces the revealing of the antichrist. We often feel we need to influence governments and vote and sometimes even war against the new world order controlling the earth. It is the exact opposite, we must focus on the gospel, and by doing that SPEED UP the end, which will involve 3.5 years of antichrist control. Satan is powerless to rush this process, actually he wants to SLOW IT DOWN (shockingly yes, he gets angry when his time is short, he is not trying to get there quickly, he is trying to DELAY the 3.5 years). The 3.5 years will NEVER COME until the gospel has been preached to all nations, we control the pace, and when we have the great victory of our testimony, Satan will fall for that final 3.5 years as per Rev 12.  

[ARGOSY]

26 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is real simple: God decreed (probably before earth was created) that the man of sin would be revealed at the exact midpoint of the week - the time of the abomination.  He therefore would prevent the man of sin from entering the temple until the right time. HOW? He would RESTAIN or hold back that revealing. God has no authority on earth EXCEPT for His church: He gave US the authority on earth. So God uses the church for this restraining force.  

What is the THEME of this passage? It is the gathering. It is just common sense then that the gathering would be a major factor in the passage - and it is. But Paul disguised it as a restraining force that is to be taken out of the way - in the one word, "apostasia"  - the departing [of the church].  

Nah we don't slow down the process, our job is to SPEED UP the process through preaching the gospel to all nations, then the end will come. Satan is restraining, we are speeding things up until Satan is overcome by the victory of the gospel as described in Rev 12. 

 

And the gathering only occurs AFTER the revealing occurs:

³ Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness^[a] is revealed

Edited March 24, 2019 by ARGOSY