Church of Christ? What do you think?

[DWH2003]

On 8/28/2018 at 7:34 AM, Still Alive said:

I understand, but for their to be a parallel, the part about singing would have to also say "leave your instruments at home". It doesn't. That is an issue I have with all beliefs that are based on what the bible "doesn't say" rather than what it says. The point you make about communion is based on what the bible says.

Are you are saying there needs to be an overt "Thou shalt not" for everything that is unauthorized?  That is not realistic, no one does this whether God or man.  We all use statements of principle upon which to act.

When you go to the bank to deposit money, do you have to specify all the bank accounts NOT to place the money into? No! You only need to specify what account it goes into.

When you go to an ice cream shop and order a waffle cone with one scoop of chocolate, would it be alright if they handed you five cones with a variety of flavors and then billed you for ten?  After all... you didn't say "Don't add more cones or more to my bill".

If you take your car into the shop and authorize an oil change, would it be alright if they put new tires on, a new carburetor, and a new paint job... and sent you the bill?  Of course not. You, the owner, did not authorize it.  It is not what you said to do.

Silence is not permission.  

The Holy Spirit, apostles & elders at Jerusalem pointed to this principle in Acts 15:24, "Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;"

The Old Law didn't say anything about priests from the tribe of Judah.  It authorized Levites to be priests.

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are said belongeth to another tribe, from which no man hath given attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord hath sprung out of Judah; as to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priests.

Hebrews says silence is not permission.  For Christ to be a priest, a new law had to be given to authorize it.

God also says it this way, do not add to or take away from His word (Rev. 22:18-19).

In like manner, we read of singing as the music God authorizes (Eph. 5:19).  Thus, we know singing is pleasing to God.  To dwell on other activities that are not revealed as part of the NT worship... is to violate & disregard what God has revealed.

 

 

On 8/28/2018 at 8:02 AM, Still Alive said:

Like God, in this case I'm using principles. e.g. I don't equate playing instruments in church worship to smoking dope or having multiple wives. As one reads the bible and prays, one knows the personality of God more. That knowledge can be used to affect ones actions and pursuits in all sorts of ways.

 

You correctly note that by reading the Bible we know more about God.  Yet, you offer a line of thinking that minimizes something God has not authorized. To us, many things may not seem like a big deal.  To me, I like long hair.  Yet God teaches that long hair for a man is a shame (1 Cor. 11).  I also enjoy musical instruments for personal use.  Absolutely love the cello.  Yet, God says sing.  When we read the Bible and find out what does please Him, we need to be satisfied.  Not go beyond that, for God says:

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

On 8/28/2018 at 10:58 AM, Jayne said:

Hebrews 7:14 is not about what God permits or doesn't permit - his silence or spoken word.  It's about detaching Jesus, the "P"riest from the "p"riesthood of Aaron's line.  The author is saying there is no connection because Jesus is from the lineage of Judah, not Aaron.  And Moses directed the priests to come from Aaron's line.

• Marijuana is not cited in the Bible, but we know it's wrong because God directly teaches that intoxication is sin.  There is no smoking weed in moderation. Ergo, huffing any substance that intoxicates is sinful.
• Actually God did say not to have multiple wives.  Deuteronomy 17:17.  This was a direction for the kings.  If it's good enough for kings, it should be wise enough for all men. 

Why do you think that instruments are about pleasing the "self"?  I know you don't put stock in the Old Testament uses of instruments for praise and worship, but God instructed it in Psalms 150.

Praise the Lord! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness! Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals! Let everything that has breath praise the Lord! Praise the Lord!

I'm not trying to change your mind.  I just don't understand the playing of instruments as having no connection whatsoever with praise and worship when the Bible is clear that it does.

And I don't understand the playing of instruments as pleasing the self and not God.

 

 

Hebrews 7 is about Christ being distinct from the Old Law, yet it also teaches a principle about how God operates.  Jesus, the King of Kings!, could not be a priest under the Old Law.  Why?  Because God did not express permission under that system for priests of the tribe of Judah.  A New Law had to be established which authorized His role as priest.  Silence was not permission.  If it is good enough for the King of Kings, should it not be good enough for all of us?

Regarding Psalm 150, many NT passages tell us that the Old Law was done away with by the death of Christ (Heb 10:1, 19-20).  We are no longer to be judged by it as a law Col. 2:13-16).  Seeking to bind the Old Law today severs one from Christ (Gal. 5:4).  While we can learn from the examples given in the OT (1 Cor. 10:6, 11), we cannot bind it as a law.  We must look to the NT for what God reveals today.

 

As for instruments being pleasing to man or God, we cannot know God apart from His word.  His word says to sing (Eph. 5:19).  What NT passage tells Christians to play instruments of music in worship?  if you can find a statement or principle that supports it, then we can (by faith) know it is right and pleasing to God.  If there is not permission from God, then to add this is to please man and follow man.

Edited September 4, 2018 by DWH2003

[Still Alive]

20 minutes ago, DWH2003 said:

Are you are saying there needs to be an overt "Thou shalt not" for everything that is unauthorized?  

 

No. that is not what I'm saying. In fact, that speaks to my whole belief about Christianity vs man made religions. Man made religions are "letter of the law" religins. Christianity is "spirit of the law". 

I use the STOP sign vs YIELD sign as an example. Both exist for the same reason. The function of traffic laws is to ensure traffic flows both as smoothly and safely as possible. That is the reason they exist.

Think of man made religion as the religion of STOP signs. If you come to a stop sign at a T in the road, and you can see in both directions a half mile down the road, you are supposed to stop. Now, this violates the "smoothly" part of the law in favor of the "Safely" part. And if there is a cop hiding behind a tree near there, you'll get a ticket , not because you were not driving safely or smoothly, but because you broke the traffic law. It is not needed for you to think. You are simply to obey the rote law. There is a STOP sign, so you stop. Hopefully you look both ways before proceeding, though.

Think of Christianity as the belief based on YEILD signs. In this case, you come to the same T and notice there are no cars coming, so you proceed without stopping and what you are doing is both safe and promoting smooth traffic flow. And if you approach and see a car coming, you stop and wait, for you understand the rules behind the YIELD sign. 

With the use of YIELD signs rather than STOP signs in all areas of traffic control, things definitely flow smoother. The problem is that some people are terrible drivers and forget important things like, at a four way intersection with no signage, the car approaching from the right has the right of way. Drivers need to know the rules for them to be in a position to make the decision to stop or not to stop, based on the situation, rather than an arbitrary STOP sign. 

So, there is nothing in the bible that can be interpreted to NOT play musical instruments in church, so I am free to play them. And I just keep Psalm 33:3 in mind when I do it. Jesus' fulfilling the law should not be interpreted to suddenly make playing instruments a violation of the spirit of the law in any way, shape or form.

[Still Alive]

33 minutes ago, DWH2003 said:

Are you are saying there needs to be an overt "Thou shalt not" for everything that is unauthorized?  That is not realistic, no one does this whether God or man.  We all use statements of principle upon which to act.

When you go to the bank to deposit money, do you have to specify all the bank accounts NOT to place the money into? No! You only need to specify what account it goes into.

When you go to an ice cream shop and order a waffle cone with one scoop of chocolate, would it be alright if they handed you five cones with a variety of flavors and then billed you for ten?  After all... you didn't say "Don't add more cones or more to my bill".

If you take your car into the shop and authorize an oil change, would it be alright if they put new tires on, a new carburetor, and a new paint job... and sent you the bill?  Of course not. You, the owner, did not authorize it.  It is not what you said to do.

Silence is not permission.  

The Holy Spirit, apostles & elders at Jerusalem pointed to this principle in Acts 15:24, "Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;"

The Old Law didn't say anything about priests from the tribe of Judah.  It authorized Levites to be priests.

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are said belongeth to another tribe, from which no man hath given attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord hath sprung out of Judah; as to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priests.

Hebrews says silence is not permission.  For Christ to be a priest, a new law had to be given to authorize it.

God also says it this way, do not add to or take away from His word (Rev. 22:18-19).

In like manner, we read of singing as the music God authorizes (Eph. 5:19).  Thus, we know singing is pleasing to God.  To dwell on other activities that are not revealed as part of the NT worship... is to violate & disregard what God has revealed.

 

 

 

You correctly note that by reading the Bible we know more about God.  Yet, you offer a line of thinking that minimizes something God has not authorized. To us, many things may not seem like a big deal.  To me, I like long hair.  Yet God teaches that long hair for a man is a shame (1 Cor. 11).  I also enjoy musical instruments for personal use.  Absolutely love the cello.  Yet, God says sing.  When we read the Bible and find out what does please Him, we need to be satisfied.  Not go beyond that, for God says:

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

OK, NOW i read your whole post. I don't know how to break up posts into separate quotes so I'll hit them here...

First, your car repair analogy does not work. If I told the mechanic to simply make my car work correctly, yes, fixing everything that is broken would be acceptable. If I said to fix the brakes, anything else would not be. The bible relates to the former. 

Second, The book of revelation refers to adding or subtracting from that one book, not the compilation of books and letters we call the Bible. 

Third, your reference to Acts 15:24 is, in my opinion, ironic. I do not play an instrument because I was commanded to, though you seem to think I shouldn't play because I was not specifically commanded to. 

Fourth, Paul was discussing the current culture when he discussed the long hair. Frankly, that very popular picture of Jesus hanging in virtually every Christian church annoys me for a variety of reasons, but it's kinda funny that he has long hair in that picture, considering Paul's words.

I can find not one scripture that even suggests there would be something wrong with playing instruments in church and, conversely, can find scripture supporting it. 

For me, arguing that it is wrong is like arguing that it is wrong to have a bible with a blue cover.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Still Alive

[Jayne]

11 hours ago, DWH2003 said:

Regarding Psalm 150, many NT passages tell us that the Old Law was done away with by the death of Christ (Heb 10:1, 19-20).  We are no longer to be judged by it as a law Col. 2:13-16).  Seeking to bind the Old Law today severs one from Christ (Gal. 5:4).  While we can learn from the examples given in the OT (1 Cor. 10:6, 11), we cannot bind it as a law.  We must look to the NT for what God reveals today.

The psalms are not the Law.  They are, for the most part, praise songs to God.    The Old Testament, as a whole, does not equal the Law.  The Law is found in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy.

By your assertion, are all the psalms and their teachings invalid?

 

[DWH2003]

23 hours ago, Still Alive said:

No. that is not what I'm saying. In fact, that speaks to my whole belief about Christianity vs man made religions. Man made religions are "letter of the law" religins. Christianity is "spirit of the law". 

I use the STOP sign vs YIELD sign as an example. Both exist for the same reason. The function of traffic laws is to ensure traffic flows both as smoothly and safely as possible. That is the reason they exist.

Think of man made religion as the religion of STOP signs. If you come to a stop sign at a T in the road, and you can see in both directions a half mile down the road, you are supposed to stop. Now, this violates the "smoothly" part of the law in favor of the "Safely" part. And if there is a cop hiding behind a tree near there, you'll get a ticket , not because you were not driving safely or smoothly, but because you broke the traffic law. It is not needed for you to think. You are simply to obey the rote law. There is a STOP sign, so you stop. Hopefully you look both ways before proceeding, though.

Think of Christianity as the belief based on YEILD signs. In this case, you come to the same T and notice there are no cars coming, so you proceed without stopping and what you are doing is both safe and promoting smooth traffic flow. And if you approach and see a car coming, you stop and wait, for you understand the rules behind the YIELD sign. 

With the use of YIELD signs rather than STOP signs in all areas of traffic control, things definitely flow smoother. The problem is that some people are terrible drivers and forget important things like, at a four way intersection with no signage, the car approaching from the right has the right of way. Drivers need to know the rules for them to be in a position to make the decision to stop or not to stop, based on the situation, rather than an arbitrary STOP sign. 

So, there is nothing in the bible that can be interpreted to NOT play musical instruments in church, so I am free to play them. And I just keep Psalm 33:3 in mind when I do it. Jesus' fulfilling the law should not be interpreted to suddenly make playing instruments a violation of the spirit of the law in any way, shape or form.

You deny the need to a "thou shalt not" for every unauthorized thing.  Yet you repeatedly approach God's word as something you can set aside whenever you feel like it.  Your fear of God is an opinion you have created.

Letter vs spirit is not a contrast between obeying law vs disobeying law. It is not "the spirit" of the law to justify practicing sin.  Notice how these words are used in the Bible:

2 Cor. 3:4 And such confidence have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God; 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written, and engraven on stones, came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not look stedfastly upon the face of Moses for the glory of his face; which glory was passing away: 8 how shall not rather the ministration of the spirit be with glory? 

Letter references the Old Covenant, written and engraven on stones.  Spirit references the New Covenant, revealed by the Holy Spirit.  The contrast is between two "ministrations" or systems.  There is nothing in the contrast that promotes practicing sin / ignoring God's word whenever you feel it is "safe" to do so...

---

STOP sign vs YIELD sign.  You are basically teaching that sincerity is enough, without truth.  You begin your illustration with an arbitrary definition for the purpose of traffic laws. Consider, instead, what God Himself defines as the purpose of His laws (both old and new).

The old ministration was given for a repeatedly stated purpose: Exodus 16:4 Then said Jehovah unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or not.  The new ministration says the same principle:  2 Corinthians 13:5 Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate.

Both covenants overtly state this purpose.  God wants us to actually do His will from the heart (Rom. 6:16-18). Also, John 4:24 Jesus said worship that is acceptable to God is in spirit and truth.  Truth alone, without our heart, is not enough.  Sincerity alone, without truth, is not enough.  Respectfully, you are teaching sincerity without truth.  This is not enough.

---

Also, you paint "stop sign" religion as not requiring thought.  Following what God says requires proper thought and action.  It is rebellion that softens thought & perception.  Why would you promote sin?  Why would you say doing what God said does not involve thought?  What heart does your view promote in people? Think about it.

---

You began by denying the need for a "thou shalt not" for every unauthorized thing.  Yet all your arguments & your conclusion state this very thing.  I quote:  "So, there is nothing in the bible that can be interpreted to NOT play musical instruments in church, so I am free to play them."

You just affirmed what you denied...

And you directly contradicted what God teaches about His silence:

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are said belongeth to another tribe, from which no man hath given attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord hath sprung out of Judah; as to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priests.

 

v. 12  To change the priesthood, the law had to be changed.  There has to be authorization from God, even for Jesus!

v. 13  Jesus was of the tribe of Judah.  The Old Law authorized Levites to be priests.  None of Judah served as priests before God.  Is God's silence permission?  No (v. 12)!

v. 14  Moses (through whom the Old Law was given) spake nothing concerning priests from the tribe of Judah.  Thus, there is was no authority for it.  Silence is prohibition, not permission.  This is the opposite of what you argued.

And note, Hebrews 7 is NT.  While referring to the Old Law, the inspired writer is teaching us how to properly understand God's word today. How to think properly and act properly.

---

You add:  "And I just keep Psalm 33:3 in mind when I do it.  Jesus' fulfilling the law should not be interpreted to suddenly make playing instruments a violation of the spirit of the law in any way, shape or form."

The Old Law is fulfilled & no longer in authority due to Christ's death, and no one is to be judged by it today (Col. 2:14-16).  While we can learn from its examples (1 cor. 10:6, 11), like Heb 7:12-14 does, we are not under its laws.  No more animal sacrifices, no more incense in worship, no more sabbath keeping... etc.  If you want even one law from the Old Law to authorize a practice today, then you must keep all of that old law (Gal. 5:3).

If you want musical instruments (Psalm 33:3) then you must also practice animal sacrifices (Ps. 20:3), the Levitical priesthood instead of Christ (Ps. 132:9)!, imprecatory prayer instead of praying for your enemies (Ps. 55:15), and more.

 

Friend, please think about what you are arguing.  Why are you working so hard to promote & authorize disobedience to God?  God's grace is to pardon us of sins so we may walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4), not so that we may continue in sin under the excuse of grace abounding (Rom. 6:1).

Edited September 5, 2018 by DWH2003

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

The better I know God, the less I concern myself with rules.Zola Levitt once said, “ There are no rules in Christianity.” I think he was on to something.I spend as much time worrying about keeping rules as I do worrying about Hell——pretty close to zero.

[Still Alive]

48 minutes ago, DWH2003 said:

You deny the need to a "thou shalt not" for every unauthorized thing.  Yet you repeatedly approach God's word as something you can set aside whenever you feel like it.  Your fear of God is an opinion you have created.

Letter vs spirit is not a contrast between obeying law vs disobeying law. It is not "the spirit" of the law to justify practicing sin.  Notice how these words are used in the Bible:

2 Cor. 3:4 And such confidence have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God; 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written, and engraven on stones, came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not look stedfastly upon the face of Moses for the glory of his face; which glory was passing away: 8 how shall not rather the ministration of the spirit be with glory? 

Letter references the Old Covenant, written and engraven on stones.  Spirit references the New Covenant, revealed by the Holy Spirit.  The contrast is between two "ministrations" or systems.  There is nothing in the contrast that promotes practicing sin / ignoring God's word whenever you feel it is "safe" to do so...

---

STOP sign vs YIELD sign.  You are basically teaching that sincerity is enough, without truth.  You begin your illustration with an arbitrary definition for the purpose of traffic laws. Consider, instead, what God Himself defines as the purpose of His laws (both old and new).

The old ministration was given for a repeatedly stated purpose: Exodus 16:4 Then said Jehovah unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or not.  The new ministration says the same principle:  2 Corinthians 13:5 Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate.

Both covenants overtly state this purpose.  God wants us to actually do His will from the heart (Rom. 6:16-18). Also, John 4:24 Jesus said worship that is acceptable to God is in spirit and truth.  Truth alone, without our heart, is not enough.  Sincerity alone, without truth, is not enough.  Respectfully, you are teaching sincerity without truth.  This is not enough.

---

Also, you paint "stop sign" religion as not requiring thought.  Following what God says requires proper thought and action.  It is rebellion that softens thought & perception.  Why would you promote sin?  Why would you say doing what God said does not involve thought?  What heart does your view promote in people? Think about it.

---

You began by denying the need for a "thou shalt not" for every unauthorized thing.  Yet all your arguments & your conclusion state this very thing.  I quote:  "So, there is nothing in the bible that can be interpreted to NOT play musical instruments in church, so I am free to play them."

You just affirmed what you denied...

And you directly contradicted what God teaches about His silence:

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are said belongeth to another tribe, from which no man hath given attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord hath sprung out of Judah; as to which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priests.

 

v. 12  To change the priesthood, the law had to be changed.  There has to be authorization from God, even for Jesus!

v. 13  Jesus was of the tribe of Judah.  The Old Law authorized Levites to be priests.  None of Judah served as priests before God.  Is God's silence permission?  No (v. 12)!

v. 14  Moses (through whom the Old Law was given) spake nothing concerning priests from the tribe of Judah.  Thus, there is was no authority for it.  Silence is prohibition, not permission.  This is the opposite of what you argued.

And note, Hebrews 7 is NT.  While referring to the Old Law, the inspired writer is teaching us how to properly understand God's word today. How to think properly and act properly.

---

You add:  "And I just keep Psalm 33:3 in mind when I do it.  Jesus' fulfilling the law should not be interpreted to suddenly make playing instruments a violation of the spirit of the law in any way, shape or form."

The Old Law is fulfilled & no longer in authority due to Christ's death, and no one is to be judged by it today (Col. 2:14-16).  While we can learn from its examples (1 cor. 10:6, 11), like Heb 7:12-14 does, we are not under its laws.  No more animal sacrifices, no more incense in worship, no more sabbath keeping... etc.  If you want even one law from the Old Law to authorize a practice today, then you must keep all of that old law (Gal. 5:3).

If you want musical instruments (Psalm 33:3) then you must also practice animal sacrifices (Ps. 20:3), the Levitical priesthood instead of Christ (Ps. 132:9)!, imprecatory prayer instead of praying for your enemies (Ps. 55:15), and more.

 

Friend, please think about what you are arguing.  Why are you working so hard to promote & authorize disobedience to God?  God's grace is to pardon us of sins so we may walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4), not so that we may continue in sin under the excuse of grace abounding (Rom. 6:1).

Never mind. You completely missed my point. 

[Still Alive]

6 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

The better I know God, the less I concern myself with rules.Zola Levitt once said, “ There are no rules in Christianity.” I think he was on to something.I spend as much time worrying about keeping rules as I do worrying about Hell——pretty close to zero.

Paul said that for him all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. The context I see that around is the concept that we obey Jesus commandments not because we will lose our salvation, but for two specific reasons: Firs, we love him and want to please him. Second, we know He loves us and is giving us those commandments for our own good, as our parents might tell us to brush our teeth every night, don't stay up too late, and look both ways before you cross the street. 

So I want to obey, but honestly, once it's written on your heart, the only hard part is keeping the flesh in check and, frankly, I'm still permitted to do those things, but it certainly won't be profitable for me. I can become a meth head, but it won't go well for me.

It will even go worse for my teeth.

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

I totally agree.

[Still Alive]

7 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

I totally agree.

One of my favorite stories in the bible is where Paul is bitten by the snake and just throws it off. I can imagine, based on his teaching, that his attitude was, "If God wants it to kill me, I'll die, and that's fine if it's God's will. And if he doesn't want it to, I won't die. Meanwhile, I need to get this wood for the fire."

The bible is so revealing and downright fun when you actually put yourself there with them, soak up the culture of the time and see the incredible promises of God from the perspective of those giving us first hand accounts.