Salvation and Sin

[Billiards Ball]

7 minutes ago, JohnKing67 said:

But that would also make what Jesus said impossible when he said to "be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect".  How can anyone be that perfect if they're always a sinner even after salvation?  

An excellent question. Perfection is imputed, not earned. Just as Jesus died and rose to save, and our works do not save, Jesus died and rose to perfect us, apart from works. The timing is the issue, since we're not perfect/sinless now but after the Rapture:

1) Only God is morally perfect, including born again Christians

2) Imperfect people cannot live in an utopia (even hurting my feelings because you sin against conscience to argue with me makes Heaven not a utopia)

3) Transformation is needed

4) Born agains are partially transformed now, to see God "through a glass, darkly"

5) Born agains are more fully transformed (receive divine power to stop sinning against conscience) at the Rapture

This is when Jesus "comes to save the saved," at the Rapture He takes us, perfects us, judges and rewards us!

[JohnKing67]

13 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

An excellent question. Perfection is imputed, not earned. Just as Jesus died and rose to save, and our works do not save, Jesus died and rose to perfect us, apart from works. The timing is the issue, since we're not perfect/sinless now but after the Rapture:

1) Only God is morally perfect, including born again Christians

2) Imperfect people cannot live in an utopia (even hurting my feelings because you sin against conscience to argue with me makes Heaven not a utopia)

3) Transformation is needed

4) Born agains are partially transformed now, to see God "through a glass, darkly"

5) Born agains are more fully transformed (receive divine power to stop sinning against conscience) at the Rapture

This is when Jesus "comes to save the saved," at the Rapture He takes us, perfects us, judges and rewards us!

I agree with you that perfection is imputed but it seems odd that if sin is so offensive to God, why is salvation not a means to stay completely free from it?  If not then that would make salvation an imperfect gift, because ultimately we will be offending God again at some point.

[Billiards Ball]

39 minutes ago, JohnKing67 said:

I agree with you that perfection is imputed but it seems odd that if sin is so offensive to God, why is salvation not a means to stay completely free from it?  If not then that would make salvation an imperfect gift, because ultimately we will be offending God again at some point.

Again, you are 100% correct. That is why:

1) No one can now see God's face and live

2) The Father does not yet dwell with men

3) Christians are on Earth to do volunteer works and righteous works rather than disappearing from the Earth after being born again

4) Etc.

I am saved, was saved, am being saved... towards the blessed hope when He comes in the future to take away His saints. 

The cross is not an imperfect gift, it paid my past sin when I didn't know Him and also, my future sin. "There remains no further sacrifice for sin." "It is finished."

[JohnKing67]

On 9/22/2018 at 6:13 AM, Raven said:

Jesus said:  . .  go, and sin no more.

He gave her a goal.

If it's a goal then I believe it's a goal he meant for her to attain.  I don't believe Jesus tells people to do the impossible.

[Raven]

5 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

Jesus doesn't give burdensome, impossible goals. 1 John 1:8 teaches that Christians who claim sinless perfectionism are actually self-deceived, and are not born again Christians.

Goal is an objective to aim at. Without it, you won't know which way, or how, to go.

Which is better understood. "Go, and sin no more", or "go, and try not to sin"?

Humans always look for an easier way out. The second option invites compromise, excuses, and sin.

[JohnKing67]

36 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Again, you are 100% correct. That is why:

1) No one can now see God's face and live

2) The Father does not yet dwell with men

3) Christians are on Earth to do volunteer works and righteous works rather than disappearing from the Earth after being born again

4) Etc.

I am saved, was saved, am being saved... towards the blessed hope when He comes in the future to take away His saints. 

The cross is not an imperfect gift, it paid my past sin when I didn't know Him and also, my future sin. "There remains no further sacrifice for sin." "It is finished."

Thanks for the reply.  I don't happen to believe in the forgiveness of future sins.  I was taught that if you sin you have to start your first works over again.  Meaning you have to repent and be forgiven again.  I may not be knowledgeable enough in the Bible to completely defend that position but it's what I believe.  I'm still learning though.  

[Raven]

2 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

...2) Imperfect people cannot live in an utopia (even hurting my feelings because you sin against conscience to argue with me makes Heaven not a utopia)...

Truth is, nobody can hurt anyone's feelings. What hurts is our own story about what someone said to us. 

Many say that truth hurts. But it does not, it actually liberates. What hurts is our ego squirming at losing self-esteem (humility, guilt, etc).

Not even a lie hurts our feelings, for all our hurt feelings come from our ego, our false-self.

Deeper truth is, we are spirit. We are not the body, though we have one. Getting lost in the idea of being the body is being absorbed by 'flesh'. We, the spirit, has a body to express God in this visible world. That is our goal, is to stop sinning so the false-self is humbled enough to allow the spirit express truth and unconditional love.

[Raven]

37 minutes ago, JohnKing67 said:

If it's a goal then I believe it's a goal he meant for her to attain.  I don't believe Jesus tells people to do the impossible.

There is a question about what we may call sin. If we whittle it down to the ten commandments, then not sinning is doable.

If sin points to being untrue (not the truth), then that becomes a lot harder, more like impossible.

[JohnKing67]

On 9/22/2018 at 5:13 PM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

If my daughter gets caught with her hand in the cookie jar, I will let her off the first time .I will warn her not to do it again.If she does it again she will be punished.It is up to her at all times . She will commit other sins down the road-she is human, after all.Same principles apply to the adulteress.She got a warning for the one specific sin.Paul was “ chief of sinners” many year after he was saved.Was this woman or us expected to do better than he did?

I'm not sure I agree that Paul was the chief of sinners after he was saved.  He was obviously a much different person after his conversion.

[JohnKing67]

8 minutes ago, Raven said:

There is a question about what we may call sin. If we whittle it down to the ten commandments, then not sinning is doable.

If sin points to being untrue (not the truth), then that becomes a lot harder, more like impossible.

You would have to include the works of the flesh in the New Testament also because I believe Paul said that those who committed the works of the flesh would not inherit the kingdom of God.