Limited Atonement

[Carrie G]

@enoob57 I am not very well versed in limited atonement. I recently read a book by John MacArthur called "The God Who Loves." I will have to read it again to let it sink in. In it John MacArthur says that in John 3:16 God is talking about mankind in general. He insists that God is sincere in His "yearning for the wicked to repent." He says that God " indiscriminately offers mercy to all who will come to Christ." Matt. 11:28-30 is stated as an example of this. He declares hyper -Calvanism  denies God loves for the non-elect, denies common grace and denies eternal life is offered to everyone.  I am still struggling to grasp why God didn't save everyone, but I did feel better after reading that book. 

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, Carrie G said:

@enoob57 I am not very well versed in limited atonement. I recently read a book by John MacArthur called "The God Who Loves." I will have to read it again to let it sink in. In it John MacArthur says that in John 3:16 God is talking about mankind in general. He insists that God is sincere in His "yearning for the wicked to repent." He says that God " indiscriminately offers mercy to all who will come to Christ." Matt. 11:28-30 is stated as an example of this. He declares hyper -Calvanism  denies God loves for the non-elect, denies common grace and denies eternal life is offered to everyone.  I am still struggling to grasp why God didn't save everyone, but I did feel better after reading that book. 

One of the errors of Calvinism is God did not die for all of Adams children; only the elect... the mechanism of sovereignty they use to persuade people of this fact. Why I have not bought into this is basically three areas of verses:

Isa 46:8-10

8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
KJV

What God says here from begin to end -what I have done will be in My pleasure

Ezek 33:11

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
KJV

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

for the Calvinistic build to be correct these two verse cannot exist or better how can there be displeasure with God if he predestines some to eternal damnation?  

Edited October 4, 2018 by enoob57

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, Carrie G said:

@enoob57 I am not very well versed in limited atonement. I recently read a book by John MacArthur called "The God Who Loves." I will have to read it again to let it sink in. In it John MacArthur says that in John 3:16 God is talking about mankind in general. He insists that God is sincere in His "yearning for the wicked to repent." He says that God " indiscriminately offers mercy to all who will come to Christ." Matt. 11:28-30 is stated as an example of this. He declares hyper -Calvanism  denies God loves for the non-elect, denies common grace and denies eternal life is offered to everyone.  I am still struggling to grasp why God didn't save everyone, but I did feel better after reading that book. 

Hullo Carrie G.

From My Notes: (Some material gleaned from Sinners Can Never Argue That Christ Didn't Love Them)

Grace At Work

 

John Calvin differentiates between common grace and effectual grace (Irresistible Grace). No doubt the suffering and sacrifice provided at the Cross by Jesus' Christ in the propitiation and atonement were "sufficient" to cover the sins of the entire world, however, they are only “efficient” by design for the Elect (Limited Atonement). The outward call of the Gospel goes out to every man without distinction (repent and believe) but only those who receive the inward call (regeneration) are actually capable of responding in faith and repentance to the object of which they are drawn (In grammatical terms the words "repent and believe" both function as a synecdoche—the figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole. Thus, repentance implies faith and faith implies repentance. One cannot exist without the other).

 

Common Grace: a theological concept, primarily in Reformed and Calvinistic circles, referring to God’s common patience or forbearance with sinful man ... the non-saving sustaining grace of God that is common to all humankind. It is “common” because its benefits are experienced by, or intended for, the whole human race without distinction between one person and another. It is "grace" because it is undeserved and sovereignly bestowed by God. In this sense, it is distinguished from the Calvinistic understanding of "special" or "saving" grace, which extends only to those whom God has chosen to redeem. An example of the concept can be found in the idea that God allows the sun to shine upon both the righteous and the unrighteous and sends rain on both the just and unjust.

• Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Effectual grace: The Bible "locates unbelief in the total inability of sinners to effect their own liberation from the bondage of the will, and ... locate faith in the unconditional election, redemption, and effectual calling of the triune God alone. God gives not only sufficient grace (that is, enough grace to enable sinners to respond positively to God if they choose to do so), but efficient grace (that is, regeneration as well as faith and repentance as gifts)."
- Michael Horton The Christian Faith, pg. 562

 

Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God that Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God that Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive. Sometimes the term irresistible grace is used in this connection. It refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, and both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. The term irresistible grace is subject to misunderstanding, however, since it seems to imply that people do not make a voluntary choice in responding to the gospel - a wrong idea, and a wrong understanding of the term irresistible grace. The term does preserve something valuable, however, because it indicates that God's work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain - even though we respond voluntarily.
Wayne Grudem (b. 1948) from Systematic Theology (pg. 699) (not to be confused with Alexander Cruden b.1699 d. 1770)

• John 6:37-39 and 44 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day...No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

In essence irresistible grace is only irresistible to those who don’t resist it, having no will or desire to resist it as evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives. 

[Raven]

Only the ego fears repentance. It fears being vulnerable. exposed, and judged. In other words, it fears being unconditional.

As long as a person fears repentance, they will never experience unconditional love for God. And uncoditional love of God. Repentance IS an act of unconditional love for God.

Those that fear repentance are conditional, even with God, which is absurd.

[Guest shiloh357]

Limited Atonement is false teaching.   Jesus died for all men and wants all men to be saved.   Unfortunately, many will reject His offer of salvation, but there is nothing in the Bible that teaches that God chose to save some but passed over others.   The five points of Calvinism are false and limited atonement is perhaps the worst of the five. 

[Carrie G]

15 hours ago, enoob57 said:

One of the errors of Calvinism is God did not die for all of Adams children; only the elect... the mechanism of sovereignty they use to persuade people of this fact. Why I have not bought into this is basically three areas of verses:

Isa 46:8-10

8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
KJV

What God says here from begin to end -what I have done will be in My pleasure

Ezek 33:11

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
KJV

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

for the Calvinistic build to be correct these two verse cannot exist or better how can there be displeasure with God if he predestines some to eternal damnation?  

What do you think he meant in Romans 9 then? God certainly is not pleased many times in the Bible. He is enduring wickedness all the time.

[Carrie G]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Limited Atonement is false teaching.   Jesus died for all men and wants all men to be saved.   Unfortunately, many will reject His offer of salvation, but there is nothing in the Bible that teaches that God chose to save some but passed over others.   The five points of Calvinism are false and limited atonement is perhaps the worst of the five. 

@enoob57What do you think of Romans 9. Especially Romans 9:22-23 which says: What if God , desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience  vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has  prepared beforehand for glory

[Carrie G]

14 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hullo Carrie G.

From My Notes: (Some material gleaned from Sinners Can Never Argue That Christ Didn't Love Them)

Grace At Work

 

John Calvin differentiates between common grace and effectual grace (Irresistible Grace). No doubt the suffering and sacrifice provided at the Cross by Jesus' Christ in the propitiation and atonement were "sufficient" to cover the sins of the entire world, however, they are only “efficient” by design for the Elect (Limited Atonement). The outward call of the Gospel goes out to every man without distinction (repent and believe) but only those who receive the inward call (regeneration) are actually capable of responding in faith and repentance to the object of which they are drawn (In grammatical terms the words "repent and believe" both function as a synecdoche—the figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole. Thus, repentance implies faith and faith implies repentance. One cannot exist without the other).

 

 

 

Common Grace: a theological concept, primarily in Reformed and Calvinistic circles, referring to God’s common patience or forbearance with sinful man ... the non-saving sustaining grace of God that is common to all humankind. It is “common” because its benefits are experienced by, or intended for, the whole human race without distinction between one person and another. It is "grace" because it is undeserved and sovereignly bestowed by God. In this sense, it is distinguished from the Calvinistic understanding of "special" or "saving" grace, which extends only to those whom God has chosen to redeem. An example of the concept can be found in the idea that God allows the sun to shine upon both the righteous and the unrighteous and sends rain on both the just and unjust.

 

• Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

   

Effectual grace: The Bible "locates unbelief in the total inability of sinners to effect their own liberation from the bondage of the will, and ... locate faith in the unconditional election, redemption, and effectual calling of the triune God alone. God gives not only sufficient grace (that is, enough grace to enable sinners to respond positively to God if they choose to do so), but efficient grace (that is, regeneration as well as faith and repentance as gifts)."
- Michael Horton The Christian Faith, pg. 562

 

 

 

Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God that Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God that Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive. Sometimes the term irresistible grace is used in this connection. It refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, and both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. The term irresistible grace is subject to misunderstanding, however, since it seems to imply that people do not make a voluntary choice in responding to the gospel - a wrong idea, and a wrong understanding of the term irresistible grace. The term does preserve something valuable, however, because it indicates that God's work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain - even though we respond voluntarily.
Wayne Grudem (b. 1948) from Systematic Theology (pg. 699) (not to be confused with Alexander Cruden b.1699 d. 1770)

 

• John 6:37-39 and 44 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day...No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

   

In essence irresistible grace is only irresistible to those who don’t resist it, having no will or desire to resist it as evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives. 

 

Thank you for your post. I agree with what you wrote from my limited understanding of limited atonement. I just get a little confused to think that I make a voluntary choice when of myself I am deprived. It certainly felt like I made a choice to seek God when He was drawing me for many years. In fact I feel like He just keeps drawing me closer to Him. 

[enoob57]

26 minutes ago, Carrie G said:

What do you think he meant in Romans 9 then? God certainly is not pleased many times in the Bible. He is enduring wickedness all the time.

This is where the rubber hits the road … understanding that God has never been willing that any should perish! Knowing that according to God man was created in His image. Now in the simplicity I ask: who has chosen for God for what He Himself 'IS'? Because God 'IS' The Who of all eternity and 'IS' merely by that fact alone 'Who' He 'IS' ~ how shall He in His Sovereignty create His image? God remains Himself Truth and the lie cannot hide this in His Eternity... this same truth set us free from the lie! The most important approach to Rom 9 is keeping with Scripture which bases election and predestination upon the foreknowledge of God that God Himself does not define! Human responsibility has been in place since the beginning of creation...

Edited October 4, 2018 by enoob57

[Carrie G]

4 hours ago, Raven said:

Only the ego fears repentance. It fears being vulnerable. exposed, and judged. In other words, it fears being unconditional.

As long as a person fears repentance, they will never experience unconditional love for God. And uncoditional love of God. Repentance IS an act of unconditional love for God.

Those that fear repentance are conditional, even with God, which is absurd.

Thank you for sharing. It brings back to thinking of myself before I knew I was a sinner and not a good person. The Holy Spirit deeply convicted me when I had an abortion. I went deeper in to drug use before I became broken and reached out to God. I definitely feared God's judgment and being exposed and vulnerable. Eventually I prayed to God for forgiveness. The condemnation lasted decades after though. I had a hard time believing in my heart of hearts that God forgave me. It took many sermons and Bible study on forgiveness.