Limited Atonement

[Carrie G]

31 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Nothing in the chapter says anything about God choosing who is or is not saved.

That's right.  He makes a distinction between Jews who are simply national Israelites, vs. those who are the true Israel, namely saved Jews.

 

But that is not about salvation.   God did choose Jacob for salvation, but for service if you read it all:

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Rom 9:11-13)
 

But it doesn't say that is due to God's choice.   

I like McArthur myself.  I have some of his books, but the Bible simply doesn't teach that Jesus died for only a select group.  And there is nothing in the OT to back that up.  Everything in the OT that serve as types and shadows of salvation, do not support Limited Atonement.

I guess I started with predestination from Romans 8:29 and then when I got to chapter 9 I read it as talking about salvation. Then when I read Romans 9:22-23 that God prepared some for destruction and some for glory, it just made sense that He already decided who would be His children. I'll admit it is painful to imagine God enduring vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. To think God offered salvation to all, but knew that only those He chose would heed the call does take time for me to digest. Still John MacArthur made a lot of sense to me when he explained that Jesus bought us with His precious blood, not just possible salvation to anyone, but that He purchased His elect.

[Carrie G]

11 minutes ago, Raven said:

Thanks Carrie G. I will assume it is this first sentence...

When we forgive someone, we actually relate to the other person. We understand how we ourselves make errors.

When we cannot forgive, we still cannot relate to the other person. This indifference is our own. This can become difficult if we don't look at ourself deeply, like Truth does. For instance, as a child I was repeatedly physically abused by my  alcoholic father. For years I could not forgive him. To forgive him I had to look deeply at myself to realize that I too have experienced losing the plot, acting out withoutout empathy, self-will run riot, etc. I then could relate, and was able to forgive him. In doing so, I realized my inforgiveness was from my denial of my own truth _ making judgments unfairly. Similar to ...

John 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

Lots of people get caught up in a story about unfairness. While in that story, they cannot relate to the other person. In effect, they have denied their own truth of imperfection.

Repentance is our way of looking deeply at our own truth.

That was beautifully put. I must say I could not forgive others more than I understood that I was a sinner and forgiven because of what Jesus did.

[Michael37]

8 hours ago, Carrie G said:

Thank you for your post. I agree with what you wrote from my limited understanding of limited atonement. I just get a little confused to think that I make a voluntary choice when of myself I am deprived. It certainly felt like I made a choice to seek God when He was drawing me for many years. In fact I feel like He just keeps drawing me closer to Him. 

As you are obviously aware, Carrie G, there are many points of view on why some are saved and others are not. It really is quite simple when we step back from the dogma and focus on the eternal purpose of Christ as the incarnation of God, namely the Redemption of that which was lost when sin entered Creation through the disobedience of Adam. God always knows all that is knowable. Adam sinned because He could, God forknew he always would, just as He foreknows all whom His goodness will lead to repentance. On judgment day no unsaved person can claim that God didn't love them enough to make His salvation available. That's how good God is.

[Guest shiloh357]

7 hours ago, Carrie G said:

I guess I started with predestination from Romans 8:29 and then when I got to chapter 9 I read it as talking about salvation.

In the Bible, "predestination" refers to what God has chosen for believers to become.  It is never used in reference to God choosing some people to be saved. 

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Then when I read Romans 9:22-23 that God prepared some for destruction and some for glory, it just made sense that He already decided who would be His children.

It does not say that God chose anyone for destruction.   Those fitted for destruction made themselves that way through their rebellion against God, and Pharaoh was an example of that kind of person.  Why would God choose only some to be His children?  That is what John Calvin teaches, but the Bible does not teach that.

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I'll admit it is painful to imagine God enduring vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. To think God offered salvation to all, but knew that only those He chose would heed the call does take time for me to digest.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God chose some to be the elect and others not to be. 

The huge glaring problem for Calvinism is that there is nothing in the OT to verify it.  Everything in the New Testament pertaining to salvation is found typified in the OT.   If Limited  Atonement were true, we could find it in all of the types and shadows about salvation in the OT.   But it is not there.

[Carrie G]

11 hours ago, Michael37 said:

As you are obviously aware, Carrie G, there are many points of view on why some are saved and others are not. It really is quite simple when we step back from the dogma and focus on the eternal purpose of Christ as the incarnation of God, namely the Redemption of that which was lost when sin entered Creation through the disobedience of Adam. God always knows all that is knowable. Adam sinned because He could, God forknew he always would, just as He foreknows all whom His goodness will lead to repentance. On judgment day no unsaved person can claim that God didn't love them enough to make His salvation available. That's how good God is.

I guess I need sometime to study more before I feel peace that God couldn't save everyone. After all I don't deserve salvation any more than those who are destined to Hell. The Holy Spirit is going to have to help me. Maybe I just need to grieve over the world of lost sinners. Perhaps God will use this to give me courage to reach out to the lost. 

[Guest 1sheep]

7 minutes ago, Carrie G said:

I guess I need sometime to study more before I feel peace that God couldn't save everyone. After all I don't deserve salvation any more than those who are destined to Hell. The Holy Spirit is going to have to help me. Maybe I just need to grieve over the world of lost sinners. Perhaps God will use this to give me courage to reach out to the lost. 

Hi Carrie

There was a time when I cried alot about the lost. My spirit was very grieved.  I think you may be going through the same thing. 

The hard truth is that people more than not love their sin. 

They dont want God interfering with their perceived fun life which we know is really a lie from the pit of hell. 

As far as your reaching out to the lost: God has already equipted you dear sister. 

If you have any fear about it just remember that God didnt give you that fear but it is the prince of lies that does not want you spreading the good news .

If you have the word in you;you are ready! You must have scriptures in you for God to draw out of you when the time comes. Thats a piece of cake. Just memorize a handful of scripture to use in your conversation.

Handing out gospel tracts is a good way to ease into it. Even just starting out putting them on peoples windshields. The key is to get ones that  draw a person in to read it. Stay away from the chick tracts. 

The more you get out there the more God will equipt you! God will keep making appts for you because you are going in faith. He will tell you what to say in the hour. 

Before long you will be striking up conversations with people and feel that check in your spirit when God is telling you to get at it! 

I can help you with where to get affordable tracts and encouragement and advice if you desire that from me. Just pm me and Id be delighted to help. 

[Carrie G]

7 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

In the Bible, "predestination" refers to what God has chosen for believers to become.  It is never used in reference to God choosing some people to be saved. 

It does not say that God chose anyone for destruction.   Those fitted for destruction made themselves that way through their rebellion against God, and Pharaoh was an example of that kind of person.  Why would God choose only some to be His children?  That is what John Calvin teaches, but the Bible does not teach that.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God chose some to be the elect and others not to be. 

The huge glaring problem for Calvinism is that there is nothing in the OT to verify it.  Everything in the New Testament pertaining to salvation is found typified in the OT.   If Limited  Atonement were true, we could find it in all of the types and shadows about salvation in the OT.   But it is not there.

I am not very well versed in these subjects so all I can do is study further. Thank you for sharing your beliefs. I'm going to look further into scripture that supports predestination. I do know that not everyone will be saved. I am still leaning heavily towards God choosing us. 

John 15:16 New International Version (NIV)

¹⁶ You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

I still think Romans 9 is talking about the salvation of God's chosen people. He speaks about the elect when he says Jacob He loved Esau He hated. I can see though that you see through I different lens.

John MacArthur said in a sermon I recently watched that Jesus must have purchased actual people with His blood not potential people. And

Galatians 3:13-15 New Life Version (NLV)

¹³ Christ bought us with His blood and made us free from the Law

that sinful man is not capable of saving himself. 

Romans 3:10-13 New International Version (NIV)

¹⁰ As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
¹¹     there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God

He also used Isaiah 53: 12 yet he bore the sins of many. meaning he died for particular peopl

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 9:22 AM, Carrie G said:

I am not very well versed in these subjects so all I can do is study further. Thank you for sharing your beliefs. I'm going to look further into scripture that supports predestination. I do know that not everyone will be saved. I am still leaning heavily towards God choosing us. 

John 15:16 New International Version (NIV)

¹⁶ You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

That verse was Jesus speaking to His disciples and His choosing them for the purpose that they were predestined, namely to be His apostles who would be the first leaders of the Church.   It was not talking about being chosen for salvation, IF you pay attention to the context.

Quote

I still think Romans 9 is talking about the salvation of God's chosen people. He speaks about the elect when he says Jacob He loved Esau He hated. I can see though that you see through I different lens.

It is not talking about their salvation in terms of God choosing to save them.   Paul states that God chose Jacob over Esau and he further quotes from Genesis that Jacob and Esau are representative of two nations.   And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. (Gen 25:22-23)

They are God's chosen people, but chosen for a purpose, not chosen for salvation.    What you are doing is allowing your theology to drive your interpretation.   You assume that God chooses people for salvation and you so you read that into Romans 9, rather than letting the context and line of thought be the measure of your interpretation.   There is not ONE thing in Romans nine that has to do with anyone being chosen for salvation.  All of the analogies are analogies of service, such as the potter determining what purpose the clay would serve, and God use of Pharaoh for His glory.   There is not a single 

 

Quote

John MacArthur said in a sermon I recently watched that Jesus must have purchased actual people with His blood not potential people.

Galatians 3:13-15 New Life Version (NLV)

¹³ Christ bought us with His blood and made us free from the Law

that sinful man is not capable of saving himself. 

Romans 3:10-13 New International Version (NIV)

¹⁰ As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
¹¹     there is no one who understands;
    there is no one who seeks God

He also used Isaiah 53: 12 yet he bore the sins of many. meaning he died for particular people

  God knows who will be saved and will not be.   He purchased the ones who He foreknows will receive Christ.   He didn't choose who will be saved and there is not a single verse in the Bible that says anything like that.  The Bible says that God wants all men to be saved (albeit many will reject Him):

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 
(1Ti 2:3-4)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 
(2Pe 3:9)
 

John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world..."  It does not say, "For God so loved the unconditionally elect, chosen for salvation."