What exactly will be seen during the Rapture

[ARGOSY]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't buy your "therefore." OF COURSE the seals come before the trumpets. You still don't get it: the seals are sealing a BOOK. The contents of the book is the 70th week of Daniel: 7 trumpets followed by 7 vials and plagues.

I was VERY specific on what I said was concurrent: the 5 events that will start near the midpoint and go to the end of the week. These five things are ALL that is concurrent. No, I'll take that back: During the last half of the week, Satan's wrath and God's wrath are concurrent.

Other than these five concurrent events, it is SEQUENCE. I cannot find any place John breaks from sequence. 

And ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation as written will be proven wrong. You can take that to the bank. 

For example, some people want to say that the 7th trumpet happens during the 6th seal. We can know that is bogus and is in error. It is rearranging the book.

I don't buy that you are allowed to break your own rule that Revelation is consecutive. You say it is consecutive "other than those five concurrent events". But why did you choose , those five? Because the content suited your view of the tribulation as 3.5 years. Thus the principle is NOT that Revelation is consecutive. The principle is that Revelation contains multiple visions concerning the tribulation. It is OFTEN CONCURRENT.

You run the risk of sounding hypocritical when you are allowed to use context to decide which chapters are concurrent, but do not allow others to do the same thing.

 

[ARGOSY]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are STILL wrong! The day BEGINS at the 6th seal, right where John TELLS US it begins. However, it is not just a one 24 hour period of time. THE DAY is still going on at the battle of Armageddon. 

The 6th seal is opened before the 70th week begins. The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. Therefore, there will be over 3 1/2 years between the opening of the 6th seal and the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

I believe in a more literal day of the Lord. My view doesn't need to stretch the day of the Lord into a long period. My view takes the 6th seal as the literal second coming as described. My view like yours sees Revelation containing many concurrent chapters. My view take the second coming wording of the 7th trumpet literally , yours has to dilute the meaning.

 

Sure the bible is a symbolic book, so you can see many things in it. But I see the second coming here, let anyone who wants to meditate on the Word of God, meditate on this:

SIXTH SEAL DESCRIBES THE SECOND COMING: I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake.The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us^[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their^[g]wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

SEVENTH TRUMPET DESCRIBES THE SECOND COMING:

¹⁵ The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:  “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,    and he will reign for ever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:     “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power   and have begun to reign.¹⁸ The nations were angry,    and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,    both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Like you, I believe some chapters in Revelation are concurrent. My decision is made, like you, based on the wording and context within those chapters rather than based on the entire book of Revelation being consecutive through every chapter.   Just like you believe the 5 descriptions of the great tribulation are concurrent, I believe the seals and trumpets and bowls are concurrent when describing the day of the Lord.  Please meditate on the wording above, should we take it literally or not?  I see the second coming in the literal wording of the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet.

[ARGOSY]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Is it twisting if Jesus WAS talking to Jews about the end of THEIR age? 

For example, what is the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus spoke of a part of?  Or what period of time is it found inside of?

Yes because Paul and Peter were Jews and were expecting to partake in what you regard as the pre-trib rapture, so faithful Jews are not regarded as tribulation saints by the bible:

 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. ¹⁵ According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

 

Now that we know that faithful Jews are not regarded as pre-trib saints, let us look at Jesus words to faith-filled Jews:

 

 ²⁴ For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.²⁵ See, I have told you ahead of time.

²⁶ “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. ²⁷ For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 

Jesus tells them not to be deceived by false Christs (like the antichrist for example) because his coming will be highly visible. So this view of two groups of Jews, a faithful group, then another faithful group, just does not make sense. Even during the Olivet discourse, Jesus keeps saying you you you you, without ever hinting at two groups of people.

 

So pre-trib requires a view that isn't childlike faith, accepting the wording at face value. It needs to introduce TWO GROUPS of Jews, TWO last trumpets, TWO raptures, TWO comings of Christ, TWO resurrections to make it fit.

Am I saying your view is impossible? No, I am just saying it is the less likely and less literal of the two positions.

 

 

[Heb 13:8]

On 10/6/2018 at 11:59 PM, R. Hartono said:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF TRUMPET, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The word "gather" in Matt 24:31 is not harpazo, it's episunagó which occurs at the end of the 70th week. Harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 occurs at the beginning of the 70th week.

1. A loud command is not the Great Trump
2. The voice of the archangel are not the angels in Matt 24:31
3. The trumpet call of God is not the Great Trump, it's the last trump

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Yes because Paul and Peter were Jews and were expecting to partake in what you regard as the pre-trib rapture, so faithful Jews are not regarded as tribulation saints by the bible:

 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. ¹⁵ According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

 

Now that we know that faithful Jews are not regarded as pre-trib saints, let us look at Jesus words to faith-filled Jews:

 

 ²⁴ For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.²⁵ See, I have told you ahead of time.

²⁶ “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. ²⁷ For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 

Jesus tells them not to be deceived by false Christs (like the antichrist for example) because his coming will be highly visible. So this view of two groups of Jews, a faithful group, then another faithful group, just does not make sense. Even during the Olivet discourse, Jesus keeps saying you you you you, without ever hinting at two groups of people.

 

So pre-trib requires a view that isn't childlike faith, accepting the wording at face value. It needs to introduce TWO GROUPS of Jews, TWO last trumpets, TWO raptures, TWO comings of Christ, TWO resurrections to make it fit.

Am I saying your view is impossible? No, I am just saying it is the less likely and less literal of the two positions.

Peter was there to hear Jesus in His end-time discourse. Paul was probably not.  I think in every generation people have thought or at least hoped it was their generation. I think for a while at least, Paul thought it would be in his life. But I think towards the end he thought otherwise. 

Faithful Jews will certainly be persecuted, and Daniel saw that the saints were being overcome. That would certainly then include Jews with the "saints."  Now your whole argument fails.

When Jesus said "you" he was talking to Jews that still believed in the Old Covenant. However, they were different than most in that time, for they believed Jesus was their Messiah. The Jewish church of which the disciples were a part died out.  The rest of the Jews scattered to the four winds. Many of them believed very strongly in the Old Covenant

I don't get your "two groups." For all those Hebrews left behind at the rapture (because they had not yet become born again) They make up one group. I guess there is two groups - those that are heathen and those that love the Father.  So no TWO groups. Your argument fails again.  Probably most of the heathen group will be deceived and take the mark.  Most of the other group I would guess would flee.  Now jump ahead almost 2000 years. There are STILL Jews that believe strongly in the Old Covenant. For those few that believe in Jesus, they will be raptured pretrib  - so won't be a distinct group during the trib. But WAIT! Hold the phone! There IS a second group: the 144,000! However, they will be raptured at the midpoint so they won't count either. All I have is one group of Old Testament saints that love our Father but don't know Jesus  The 70th week will be for THEM.

WHICH words do you believe we don't accept at face value?

Is there a trump at the pretrib rapture? Check!

Is there a trumpet in the Matthew 24 gathering? Check!  Therefore there WILL BE two trumpet blasts. 

Is there a pretrib rapture for the church? Check!

Is there a rapture for the 144,000? Check! It is not written, but understood because they are seen in heaven. 

Is there a rapture for the Old Testament saints? Check! The Two witnesses will be raised up with them.

Is there are rapture for those beheaded during the week? Check! 

Care to count them?

Edited November 4, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The word "gather" in Matt 24:31 is not harpazo, it's episunagó which occurs at the end of the 70th week. Harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 occurs at the beginning of the 70th week.

1. A loud command is not the Great Trump
2. The voice of the archangel are not the angels in Matt 24:31
3. The trumpet call of God is not the Great Trump, it's the last trump

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Just because one verse says a great sound of a trumpet and another says "last trump" does not necessarily prevent them being the same trump. In this case they are not the same, because of timing.

I agree with you here on your timing.

[iamlamad]

On 11/2/2018 at 7:56 PM, Adstar said:

When the rapture happens NO ONE who is saved will be left behind..  Belief in rapture is not a prerequisite for taking part in it.. 

The Last Trumpet in the Book of Revelation is the 7th trumpet..

Matthew 24 gives details of the day of the return of the LORD Jesus Christ on that day a trumpet will be sounded:::

(Matthew 24:29-31) "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

So yes we are agreed the Last trumpet will be the time of the rapture.. And Matthew 24 reveals a trumpet blast on the day of the return of our LORD Jesus.. So if the last trumpet happens before the tribulation and before the second coming of the LORD Jesus then a pre-tribulation rapture believer must then declare that Matthew 24 verse 31 is a lie because there cannot be another trumpet blast after the final trumpet blast... 

The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is a delusion that requires people to deny scripture.. To deny words directly from the mouth of Jesus Himself..

I am not so sure of your position: everything we have ever received from heaven we got by faith through grace. You are saying the rapture will just be grace and no faith? 

 

As for "the last trump:" Do you believe God is going to send angels to collect all trumpets, from heaven and earth - so there can never be another?

I doubt if you believe that. Therefore, we must qualify what Paul wrote. It is the last trump OF A SERIES.  Not the last trump ever to sound, now and into all eternity.

 

Please tell us, what scripture are we denying? 

Edited November 4, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

I believe in a more literal day of the Lord. My view doesn't need to stretch the day of the Lord into a long period. My view takes the 6th seal as the literal second coming as described. My view like yours sees Revelation containing many concurrent chapters. My view take the second coming wording of the 7th trumpet literally , yours has to dilute the meaning.

 

Sure the bible is a symbolic book, so you can see many things in it. But I see the second coming here, let anyone who wants to meditate on the Word of God, meditate on this:

SIXTH SEAL DESCRIBES THE SECOND COMING: I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake.The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us^[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their^[g]wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

SEVENTH TRUMPET DESCRIBES THE SECOND COMING:

¹⁵ The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:  “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,    and he will reign for ever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:     “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power   and have begun to reign.¹⁸ The nations were angry,    and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,    both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Like you, I believe some chapters in Revelation are concurrent. My decision is made, like you, based on the wording and context within those chapters rather than based on the entire book of Revelation being consecutive through every chapter.   Just like you believe the 5 descriptions of the great tribulation are concurrent, I believe the seals and trumpets and bowls are concurrent when describing the day of the Lord.  Please meditate on the wording above, should we take it literally or not?  I see the second coming in the literal wording of the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet.

I don't see any second coming wording at the 7th trump. I think you imagine them.  Neither do I see a second coming at the 6th seal. No wording in either place sounds to me like a second coming. Compare them both to Rev. 19 or to 1 Thes 4, and they fall WAY short of sounding like a coming at all. 

Please explain how you can make the seals protecting a book concurrent with the book itself.

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

I don't buy that you are allowed to break your own rule that Revelation is consecutive. You say it is consecutive "other than those five concurrent events". But why did you choose , those five? Because the content suited your view of the tribulation as 3.5 years. Thus the principle is NOT that Revelation is consecutive. The principle is that Revelation contains multiple visions concerning the tribulation. It is OFTEN CONCURRENT.

You run the risk of sounding hypocritical when you are allowed to use context to decide which chapters are concurrent, but do not allow others to do the same thing.

 

I know those five are concurrent because it is just common sense: all are of events that start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week. They are 5 concurrent countdowns to the end of the week.

There is nothing like this in the first half of the week It is impossible to write of 5 concurrent paths except one at a time as John did. 

Why are you fighting this so much. You could be LEARNING. Instead you want to argue. 

Do you imagine some of the seals are concurrent- that one seal event lasts into the next seal event? Indeed, now that you mention it, seals 1-5 are concurrent through the church age. Good point.  But the seals are OPENED consecutively - in the order John numbered them. 

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Aah so you choose which chapters are concurrent and which chapters are consecutive based on your view of the content of those chapters. But I can't do that? 

Then you take the high road, claiming I am "re-arranging" Revelation, when you are doing the same thing by choosing which chapters are concurrent and not consecutive. 

I have said over and over again, pick a chapter: events in that chapter will happen AFTER the events in a previous chapter.  So although there are 5 parallel events, the starting points are staggered, so they are consecutive. If you wish to make the fleeing before the trampling, you will be WRONG.

have you EVER saw me write some nonsense like the 5th vial occurs during the 5th trumpet - or that the vials and trumpets are concurrent? I don't write nonsense like that unless my fingers type something my mind is not thinking. I have NEVER said "chapters" are concurrent. You said that. However, one might guess that chapters 2 an 3 might be concurrent. But no one EVER argues about them. I guess the same could be said for chapters 17 and 18 since they are both talking about the destruction of Babylon. Again, no one ever argues about those chapters. 

Even though there are 5 concurrent events in chapters 11 through 13, these chapters are not concurrent. Even those these 5 countdowns to the end are taking place behind the scenes in chapters 14 and 15, these chapters are consecutive. John did NOT mix things up, as one writer suggested. 

Look: if you come to believe as I do that John wrote according to the Holy Spirit, who makes no mistakes, there is NO NEED to rearrange. however, for those with strange doctrines - such as "the trib" comes before the 6th seal, find a great need to rearrange to make their strange doctrine fit.

By the way, if you stop rearranging, I will stop saying it!

Edited November 4, 2018 by iamlamad