Trinity Questions

[Timothy]

That would be a good starting point Mike. To accept the Trinity, you must accept the deity of Christ.

John 1:10 He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[godrulz]

Guardiands:

There are at least 4 majors views of the atonement in church history. The traditional view may not be correct nor is it often understood. Jesus died as a man. Deity does not die. Yes, He is the God-Man, but the need for an 'infinite atonement' is questionable (I don't mean the Savior did not have to be God...just that the eternal God cannot die, but the human nature  <God-Man> can). This is a trinity forum so I will NOT get more into it. The traditional 'Satisfaction Theory' may not be biblical and has problems. The 'Moral Government' theory (Charles G. Finney= public justice and governmental problems rather than appeasement) seems to me to be more biblical.

Note to MM and Linda: Timothy is right. Biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity is trinitarian. Other views that believe the Deity of Christ may be our brothers and sisters in Christ, but they sure add confusion to the church and especially to you. If you want to know about the Trinity, they are not the source. They are against it. I wish they would put their time and energy into showing J.W.'s and Mormons about the love and Deity of Christ instead of confusing regenerate fellow believers.

Note: God honors faith and obedience, not theological excellence. The Gospel can be understood by a child. However, we need a minimum level of truthful content and the person and work of the Lord Jesus as an object of our faith.

[Guardiands]

Dad ernie

I appreciate your post.  I always love to learn new things.  So the only requirement is that he had to be sinless,  and divinity was not a requirement?  See in my view only a God could atone for the sins of all the world.  But you bring a good point up by quoting the OT.  What is the view of the majority of christians on this issue?  And what do the creeds teach?  Is that view dad part of the trinity (which I admit I know only a little about) ?

[Guardiands]

godrulz,

thank you.  I'm not very familiar with the four views you presented and will have to look into them more.  Like I was telling ernie, I believe only a God could do an infinite atonement, but ernie brought some good points up.

However, I still see NO scriptures stating that God the FAther and Jesus Christ are co substantial co eteranl and co equal (even if you can account for john 14:29, you don't show a scripture stating this changes...in fact it's clear there is a subordination in the scriptures, just look at rev 3:21 as one amoung many)

So why do the creeds feel they have to add to the bible?  Why not just have the bible as it is?  With prophets, as Peter was a prophet,  to interpret it (2 peter 1:19-21)

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Guardiands,

So the only requirement is that he had to be sinless,  and divinity was not a requirement?  See in my view only a God could atone for the sins of all the world.  But you bring a good point up by quoting the OT.  What is the view of the majority of christians on this issue?  And what do the creeds teach?  Is that view dad part of the trinity (which I admit I know only a little about) ?

You are correct in that ONLY God could provide the "perfect sacrifice" for the propitiation of our sins. If nothing else, this one fact gives credence to the triune nature of the Godhead.

In the overall scheme of things I see that when God finished His creating, He saw that all that His hands had made was - GOOD - not perfect, mind you, but for the purposes for which He created it, it served His purposes perfectly.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Also note, that this was the day He created man, yet every day of the first 5 days, He looked upon what He created and saw that what He created on that specific day was good. But He didn't stipulate Adam and Eve on the 6th day, He mentioned that ALL that he created was "very good". Again I emphasize NOT PERFECT, but good for His purposes.

Now in the NT I see a verse which perfectly describes God's creation:

Romans 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

The Greek word for "vanity" above is:

3153 mataiotes {mat-ah-yot'-ace}

from 3152; TDNT - 4:523,571; n f

AV - vanity 3; 3

1) what is devoid of truth and appropriateness

2) perverseness, depravity

3) frailty, want of vigour

I believe, as used here, vanity means "frailty, want of vigour". Equate this to God, Himself, or Jesus, or the Angels. The carnal, or earthly, does not have the "power" (Gr. dunamis) that these heavenly beings have. So this was the condition of Adam when God created Him. If Adam were to "live forever", he would need an outside agent (The Tree of Life) by which he could be sustained.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Now from this time onward, the "law" requiring the "shedding of blood for the remission of sin" came into being:

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

It was God that provided a "temporary covering" for the disobedience of Adam. This "covering" is a "type" of what Christ did at the cross:

Hebrews 9:24-28 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Now the 2nd "type" we see mentioned of God's providential care is:

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Do you see the play on words here? This was almost 4,000 years before our Lord came on the scene, but here we see that God had already planned to sacrifice HIMSELF as a lamb.

So herein, again we see that Jesus is looked at as God Himself.

Then of course we have specific reference to Jesus as God and Father in the following:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

He is NOT "just" called this, in reality, Jesus IS the above as testified to by:

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

So this should prove that Jesus in fact IS God. However, then we have the problem of whether Jesus was ALSO separate from the Father.

So we see these verses:

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Here we have the testimony of both man and God that Jesus was a man, but of divine creation. The following also reveals the distinction between Christ and the Father:

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

We see Jesus as "man", and we see God as "spirit".

Now when Jesus was born as man, He left behind His God qualities of:

Omniscience

Omnipotence

Omnipresence

Eternality

So how is it that He was able to perform such God like miracles? Would you believe - the same way as we might:

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

So we see here an integral part of the Godhead and that is the Holy Spirit. What do we see in the scriptures which testifies of this?

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Well, I have to run now, my ISP is telling me I have only a short time left.

God Bless,

Dad Ernie

[Guest]

**Please NOTE that my post on Jan. 31 2003,12:24 has been edited to remove a comment I made toward Wwatch because of my haste and lack of consideration of his words.

While we are not in agreement on this matter . . . we are in the utmost agreement of the worthiness of our Lord and Savior of all our love and gratitude expressed by our continual service and praise.

I regret the time my words were available for consideration,

[Timothy]

Mike,

No questions or comments regarding my last post?

Do you understand that accepting the Trinity requires acceptance of Christ's deity?

[Guest Mormon Mike]

Timothy,

That would be a good starting point Mike. To accept the Trinity, you must accept the deity of Christ.

No questions or really any comments, I believe that accepting Jesus as our savior and the one that died for our sins requires us to accept his deity.

[Guardiands]

Dad ernie,

First off, I thoroughly enjoyed the way you presented those scriptures.  It was a treat to go through your post, and to be quite honest I'll probably read it again.

You bring up an excellent point, Christ did give up such qualities as His Omniscience, omnipotence, etc.  So perhaps john 14:29 could be referring to only the lesser state that Jesus was in at that time.

You brought up a great scripture in John, I believe it was John 20:28, I'm not positive.  also to add to that is John 20:17 where Jesus states "I go to your God and to my God"

This is the ressurected Jesus, glorified and restored to perfection.  Yet he still refers to The Father as God (as you showed also in your post)  to me this shows a form of subordination.  Could either of us EVER see the Father calling Jesus "His God"??  no of course not.  What is your thought on that Dad?

Also on john chapter 4 where it reads God is a spirit, it should most likeley be translated as "God is spirit"  Just as we find other scriptures reading "God is truth" and "God is love".  None of these scriptures limit God the Father to not having a body.  In fact, we KNOW that having a ressurected body is superior to a spirit because:

a) Jesus died, was a spirit, and was ressurected, so now has a body.

b) we will die, become spirits, and then will be ressurected

So if having a spirit was superior, then logically Christ NOR us would be ressurected, but would remain in a spirit state.  

Anyways, your post dad showed me that John 14:29 could be referring to a subordinate state only while Christ was on the earth, but I feel other scriptures point to a subordinate role even AFTER Christ's ressurection.  Your views?

And what are your thoughts about God the Father having a body?  I know it contradicts platonic thinking, but why Have Jesus and us leave a spiritual state to become ressurected into a body?  Remember just because God has a body does NOT mean that His body has Him, His influence could still reach throughout the universe.  Just as Christ's ressurected body did not limit him.

Anyways Dad, thanks again for the majestic way of putting those scriptures together to show the connection between the OT and NT in regards to God coming down to atone for our sins.  The abraham comment was great, the "play on words"    

Well gotta go

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Guardiands,

You bring up an excellent point, Christ did give up such qualities as His Omniscience, omnipotence, etc.  So perhaps john 14:29 could be referring to only the lesser state that Jesus was in at that time.

I think you hit the nail on the head:

John 14:24-25 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

Jesus only did that which He say the Father doing, basically He leaned not unto His own understanding, but in all ways submitted Himself unto God. (Prov 3:5-6 & John 5:19)

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

It was and is typical of God to reveal to his prophets before He does a new thing.

This is the ressurected Jesus, glorified and restored to perfection.  Yet he still refers to The Father as God (as you showed also in your post)  to me this shows a form of subordination.  Could either of us EVER see the Father calling Jesus "His God"??  no of course not.  What is your thought on that Dad?

You are correct:

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Also on john chapter 4 where it reads God is a spirit, it should most likeley be translated as "God is spirit"  Just as we find other scriptures reading "God is truth" and "God is love".  None of these scriptures limit God the Father to not having a body.  In fact, we KNOW that having a ressurected body is superior to a spirit because:

a) Jesus died, was a spirit, and was ressurected, so now has a body.

b) we will die, become spirits, and then will be ressurected

We know that there are TWO type of bodies:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

All we have to go on is what is in the scriptures. We are told that "God is spirit". At no time does it say that God has a body, although his characteristics are often referred to in anthropomorphic terms. In 1 Cor 15, we see that what was planted (all of creation) is one type, and the other type is "spiritual". For the created thing must first die (be changed) from physical to spiritual. Now another interesting verse we have is:

Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

So the angels are perhaps the way we can visualize the "Father". They are able to, as was Jesus, Elijah & Moses, traverse between heaven and earth, and when on earth need not make their appearance known. These have both a physical as well as a "spiritual" quality to them. Even we, when we are "changed", shall have both a physical and spiritual side to us. But the angels are "created beings", and I believe that is the point. God is NOT a created being, He is spirit.

So if having a spirit was superior, then logically Christ NOR us would be ressurected, but would remain in a spirit state.

For us we shall always be subordinate to the Father. We shall always have a physical side to our being. We are a "seed" that was planted by God, that when fully grown will be able to reside in a physical location as well as enjoy fully the presence of God. Remember, God is omnipresent. There is not with any conceptual understanding a being that has this quality except for God.

Anyways, your post dad showed me that John 14:29 could be referring to a subordinate state only while Christ was on the earth, but I feel other scriptures point to a subordinate role even AFTER Christ's ressurection.  Your views?

Even now Jesus sits at the "right hand of the Father" and is OUR intercessor with the Father. In lieu of 1 Cor 15:28 above, I see that when all is over and done and Jesus has turned everything back over to the Father, then He shall be seen as fully God and not a separate entity.

Thank you for your kind words, but for both our sakes, do not hear my words, but listen to God and give glory to Him who reveals these things to men.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie