Trinity Questions

[Guest Mormon Mike]

Dad Ernie,

[johnc]

OK, I guess I'll throw my 2 cents worth in Mike.

It is vital to understand the terminology first of all, since the LDS church's meanings differ from that of the mainstream Christian's.  In order to know what we are really discussing, these need to be clarified.  I will contrast the definitions here.

Holy Ghost - The third Person of the Trinity as opposed to the LDS concept of a spirit man which can only be at one place at one time... " (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 359.)

Godhead - Not an office as understood in LDS usage, but God Himself.  Three persons in one God like one triangle consisting of three sides - The Father; the Son; and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus - Second Person of the Trinity as opposed to the LDS concept of him being a spirit brother of Satan and a god in the Godhead. Unlike LDS usage which claims Jesus is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim the Father, Christian usage says He is Elohim while at the same time remaining a distinct person of the Godhead, just as each side of a triangle is distinct yet one with the overall object.

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10-11)

 This verse has Jehovah stating that there was no God (elohim) formed before nor will there be any God (elohim) formed after him.  That being the case, the other 2 persons in the Godhead could not have been formed either before Jehovah or afterwards and therefore must have always existed as one with Jehovah.  In other words, this verse is stating that the LORD (Jehovah) is elohim and they are not three separate gods, but only one God.

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6)

"Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any" (Isaiah 44:8).

The context here is that Jehovah (LORD) is speaking. He states here that there is no God (elohim) besides him.  He is stating that he does not even know of any other elohim (God) besides himself.  The name of God (elohim) is Jehovah (LORD) and the LORD is stating that he alone is God. In other words, Jehovah is stating that he alone is elohim.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Mormon Mike,

I have been following your conversation with Guardiands and I must say there is some really good information.  I must admit I am not a well versed in the nature of the Godhead as Guardiands so my questions may sound somewhat simple.  You quoted a scripture that talks about Jesus only doing that which he has seen the Father doing.  To me that sounds like a case to support the separate being belief rather than a Trinity.  As it refers to Jesus and God being separate both in personage and knowledge, can you clarify?

Believe me, you are not asking a "simple" question. Even as you, I have to take what the scripture says and try to make some logical sense out of it. I must recognize that we "see as through a glass darkly", so at best I can gain "some" understanding, at worst, I "could" miss the mark entirely. I am always open to suggestion as long as it is supportable by the scriptures. We are told clearly that The Son is also the "Father" (Isa 9:6). We are told that Jesus is the Word and that the Word IS God. (John 1:1)

So my answer to you is that Jesus is God manifested in flesh, to suffer and die on the cross (in the flesh) so that He might be the PERFECT propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but for the whole world. No MAN could ever be that perfect sacrifice, ONLY God would be able to satisfy His own requirement of a sinless lamb. I'm sorry if I can't give you a better answer.

This statement sparked a question, when Jesus was resurrected he had a perfect body, the apostles touched him and it seems clear he has a body correct?  The bible never talks about him laying down his resurrected body before ascending to his Father, so if Jesus was God then does that not indicate God had a body.  Again this is a new line of thinking for me and I may have missed something so forgive me if my questions have simple answers.

No, Jesus was "the only begotten of the Father" and He did so through the union of the Holy Spirit and Mary, a physical human being. Otherwise we must rely on the verse that says that "God is spirit". Jesus appeared to in a fleshly body which was a little lower than what the angels have.

I do not know if that answers your questions, but if you still have more, I am willing to try to answer them.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guardiands]

Dad ernie,

You stated we should use the angles as examples of what God is.  I disagree strongly.  We should use CHRIST as the example.  After all "if ye have seen me ye have seen the Father" John chapter 14.  

You're absolutley right about two kinds of bodies, and that's the point.  Our mortal bodies are inferior.  Yet a ressurected body is superior (as shown by Jesus)

As for the scripture "God is spirit" it has nothing to do with his corpeality any more than the scriptures "God is love" and "God is truth"

However, it is safe to say the bible neither says God has a body or does not (God the Father that is, we Know God the Son has a ressurected body)

But I am happy to see you believe in a subordinate Christ.  I agree that the scriptures seem to point that out.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Guardiands,

As for the scripture "God is spirit" it has nothing to do with his corpeality any more than the scriptures "God is love" and "God is truth"

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Is God seeking those who worship Him in the flesh or bodily? NO, because God is Spirit, and those who worship Him MUST worship HIM in spirit.

Why would you insist or conjecture that God has a physical body? Yes Jesus had a body, but it came as a union between the Holy Spirit and Mary. How is it that:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

That means neither Adam or Moses or anyone else has SEEN God. It cannot be any plainer.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Timothy]

You have been very helpful so far and I wish you would reconsider your involvement in these posts.

[Guardiands]

Dad,

You now see my point.  Jesus says "God is spirit"  Jesus says "those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit"  Does that mean we have to leave our bodies behind to worship Christ?  Of course not, because "spirit" is not in reference to corpreality.  

So that scripture no more says God is a spirit, than it says that we have to leave our bodies to worship God.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Guardiands,

You now see my point.

[Guest]

Dad Ernie,

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings BibleReader,

Or is it done by finding an answer that makes sense from all scripture in the bible?

If one has a good hermeneutic, the first thing on the list is to read the scripture and understand it in the CONTEXT given. From there we look to the greater CONTEXT of the Book, and then of the even greater CONTEXT of the whole Bible. There are, of course, other rules which help us to study, but those are the basics.

From my perspective, I see that God existed when nothing else did. He claims that He Himself is God and there is NO other.

I foresee a day at the end of time when God shall again be revealed as ONE. Jesus as God, the Father as God, and the Holy Spirit as God, and they are all ONE.

So how can my limited mind understand Him in the here and now? I can only make another analogy in terms I understand. I see the Father as being likened to our MIND, (I am not talking about our brain, but our MIND - they are NOT the same thing.) We are given a verse that says "life is in the blood". and we also know that it is the SPIRIT that gives life. It is the animating POWER that allows the BODY to LIVE. So the "SPIRIT" is likened to the blood that courses through my veins and heart. Then we have Jesus. He is the BODY, the person that can be SEEN with our mortal eyes and understanding.

Now if any ONE of our MIND, or BLOOD, or BODY were destroyed, we would be as the dust - NOTHING!

So I see God as ONE, but revealing to us HIS components that make up God. Together they comprise the God which has been revealed to us through Jesus who came to us in the FLESH.

I call the Godhead, the "trinity", for lack of better understanding.

Well, I hope I didn't confuse you with my own thoughts. I know that if you are serious, you can "diligently" seek God and HE will give you wisdom on the matter. Just continue to rely on the BIBLE, and NOT the Book of Mormon.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie