Creation

[one.opinion]

3 hours ago, Waggles said:

Why would any Christian worth their salt throw their lot in with Darwin and Dawkins.

Speaking personally, I accept that God created through evolution because of the evidence that the Creator left for us. I don’t listen to Dawkins at all and although Darwin is credited with the formulation of the idea, but the modern evidence is strongly supported by molecular evidence that he knew nothing about.

Maybe try listening to a fellow believer with a different view on a secondary issue before arriving at harsh judgements. There is nothing in your selected verse that I would disagree with.

[Waggles]

8 hours ago, one.opinion said:

Speaking personally, I accept that God created through evolution because of the evidence that the Creator left for us.

Speaking personally, I accept that God created through his power to create because of the evidence that the creator left for us. 

And the scriptures do clearly teach that God created things out of nothing - that is he spoke them into existence - scripture does not teach evolution.

[one.opinion]

10 minutes ago, Waggles said:

Speaking personally, I accept that God created through his power to create because of the evidence that the creator left for us. 

Agreed.

11 minutes ago, Waggles said:

And the scriptures do clearly teach that God created things out of nothing - that is he spoke them into existence - scripture does not teach evolution.

Interestingly, the Genesis account shows God bring basic elements into existence by speaking them into existence. However, He tells the land and sea to bring forth life.

There are many things that the scripture does not teach that we still know to be true - like the existence of cells, organelles, molecules, and atoms.

[Guest]

On 11/12/2018 at 6:57 AM, Pencil24 said:

Creation makes sense to me. How do you combine people that evolution is not accurate?

I don't believe in evolution.  Consider the following from Dave Reagan.

Source: Gap Theory from Creation Story

Evidence for the Gap Theory From the Creation Story

Content Author: 

Reagan, David

The Heaven and the Heavens

In Genesis 1:1
, God clearly states that “God created the heaven and the earth.”  The word heaven , as you can see, is singular.  This distinction separates those who have faith in the preservation of the English text from Hebrew scholar wannabes.  The Hebrew word can be correctly translated in different contexts as either heaven or heavens .  And, most modern English versions translate this passage as heavens .  However, a Bible-believing study of Genesis One and the doctrine of heavens in the scripture show that heaven in the singular is the only possible correct translation.

Before we look at this evidence, consider the contrast between Genesis 1:1
and 2:1
.  In Genesis 1:1
, God created the “heaven.”  However, in Genesis 2:1
, the Bible declares,  “Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.”  Earth is still singular but the heaven of 1:1
becomes the completed heavens of 2:1
.  How many heavens are there and when were the additional heavens created? 

The Bible teaches the number of heavens in 2 Corinthians 12:2
where the Apostle Paul relates this experience: “I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.”  This is God’s heaven; the highest heaven. Therefore, there are three heavens.

The heavens are built in stories (Amos 9:6
). Compare the heavens to the three stories on Noah’s ark (Genesis 6:16
).

• The first heaven is the atmosphere or the atmospheric heaven. It is called the “open firmament of heaven” (Genesis 1:20
  ) because it is the one we access and it is open to the heaven above it. It was created on the second day of the six days of creation (Genesis 1:6-8
  ).
• The second heaven is the starry heaven or out space. It is called “the firmament of the heaven” (Genesis 1:14-19
  ) and was created on the second day (Genesis 1:6-8
  ).
• The third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:4
  ) is simply heaven or God’s heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16
  ). It is sometimes called the “heaven of heavens” (Nehemiah 9:6
  ); (Psalm 148:4
  ) or “paradise” after the resurrection and ascension of Christ (2 Corinthians 12:4
  ). It was created in Genesis 1:1
  in the beginning. That is why Genesis 1:1
  refers to “heaven” while Genesis 2:1
  refers to the “heavens.”  Only one heaven had been created in the very beginning. There had been no separation between heavens as there it today. The heaven of Genesis 1:1
  must refer to God’s heaven—one that was not created during the six days of creation but had an earlier existence.

The Moving of the Spirit

One of the works of the Spirit is that of renewal; of making new again. This is His work. God sends forth his spirit and “renewest the face of the earth” (Psalm 104:30
). This is His work with fallen man (Titus 3:5
). This was very likely His work with the destroyed earth in Genesis 1:2
. But consider, only that which already exists can be renewed.

The Creation Day Formula

Throughout the six-day creation story, each day begins with “And God said” (Genesis 1:3
, 6, 9, 14, 20, 24) and each day ends with “And the evening and the morning were the [number] day” (Genesis 1:5
, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31). According to this formula, the first day of creation began in Genesis 1:3
making the events of the first two verses previous to the six-day creation.

The Command to Replenish

When man was created, he was told to “replenish the earth” (Genesis 1:28
). Replenish means to refill in its most common meaning. Yes, the Hebrew can also mean just to fill and the English word can be defined this way in some cases. However, in cases of doubt on the meaning of a word, they key is to find a Bible answer. This answer is found in Genesis 9:1
. In the second passage, the word refers to the command given to Noah and his family after the destruction of the flood and clearly means to refill. The commissions are parallel in several ways and the word must have the same meaning in both places.

The Crowding of the First Day

If the first day included Genesis 1:1-2
, the following events would all have occurred on that one 24-hour day.

1. The creation of God’s heaven           
2. The creation of the heavenly beings: angels, cheribum, serriphim, etc.
3. The creation of the earth
4. The song of the angels who sang at the creation of the earth (Job 38:4-7
   )
5. The creations of the waters that are upon the earth (Genesis 1:2
   )
6. The moving of the Spirit on the waters
7. The creation of light (with this order, the angels evidently sang in the dark)
8. The division of light from darkness

Although God can certainly do anything, this particular crowding is out of line with the remainder of the creation week when God only created one or two major categories in a day. It makes the story imbalanced.

‹ Major Objections to the Gap Theory up Evidence for the Gap Theory From the Description of the Earth ›

David Reagan

[Tristen]

On 11/12/2018 at 9:57 PM, Pencil24 said:

Creation makes sense to me. How do you combine people that evolution is not accurate?

Hi Pencil24.

You said, “Creation makes sense to me”

The Biblical account of creation “makes sense” to everyone. But everyone does not agree with The Biblical account of creation because it contradicts their presumed obligation to the secular account of history.

 

“How do you combine people that evolution is not accurate?”

I assume you mean 'convince' – not “combine”?

If someone does not wish to be convinced that the secular account of history is questionable, then you can not convince them. We are dealing with stories about the past which can not be empirically tested by the Scientific Method (without a time machine). So no-one can ever be logically obligated to the other's position.

The best one might accomplish is to demonstrate that all of the facts can equally be interpreted to be consistent with the Biblical account of history (i.e. by exactly the same logical method used to generate confidence in the secular story).

But even then, they will likely force you to wade through all the propaganda, empty posturing and fallacy commonly adopted to protect the secular narrative (e.g. like claiming only their side follows the 'evidence' to it's most reasonable conclusion, or like claiming the facts clearly, obviously, unequivocally 'point' exclusively to their preferred conclusion etc.)

But be warned – they do not like it when you start to dismantle the foundations of their Ivory Tower – and may seek to have your part in the conversation redacted.

 

 

[Waggles]

@Tristen evolution is for those who do not have a personal relationship with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit. This includes unbelievers, but alas many "believers" who do not manifest the power of God in their walk and in their testimonies.

In Pentecostal churches the gifts of healings and miracles abound, along with blessings and much answered prayer. So there is no confusion or doubt about the power and truth that God directly creates and recreates according to His will. 

Take a testimony to the effect that a Spirit-filled Christian through faith and the prayers of the saints is completely healed and delivered from a life threatening cancer. Some, not all, saints have been totally healed by God and set free from cancer. 

The doctors and specialists have diagnosed the tumour and x-rays and scans have revealed the size and location of the tumour.

So what happened to these cancerous cells? Where did this matter go? How was it instantly replaced with new organic matter? The same questions apply to many healing miracles - organic matter (atoms and molecules) are replaced by new atoms and molecules without any atomic fusion, etc. 

Think about the first attested miracle undertaken by Jesus in Cana when he transformed water into wine.  Now plain water is simply H₂O and red wine is composed of many additional organic molecules and tannins to give it the alcohol and flavours that make up wine. How does this happen in an instant in time? Matter coming into existence in our dimensional world simply by God thinking it to be? 

Evolution is for the blind that refuse to see the glory of God in the creation that surrounds us. 

[Tristen]

1 hour ago, Waggles said:

@Tristen evolution is for those who do not have a personal relationship with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit. This includes unbelievers, but alas many "believers" who do not manifest the power of God in their walk and in their testimonies.

In Pentecostal churches the gifts of healings and miracles abound, along with blessings and much answered prayer. So there is no confusion or doubt about the power and truth that God directly creates and recreates according to His will. 

Take a testimony to the effect that a Spirit-filled Christian through faith and the prayers of the saints is completely healed and delivered from a life threatening cancer. Some, not all, saints have been totally healed by God and set free from cancer. 

The doctors and specialists have diagnosed the tumour and x-rays and scans have revealed the size and location of the tumour.

So what happened to these cancerous cells? Where did this matter go? How was it instantly replaced with new organic matter? The same questions apply to many healing miracles - organic matter (atoms and molecules) are replaced by new atoms and molecules without any atomic fusion, etc. 

Think about the first attested miracle undertaken by Jesus in Cana when he transformed water into wine.  Now plain water is simply H₂O and red wine is composed of many additional organic molecules and tannins to give it the alcohol and flavours that make up wine. How does this happen in an instant in time? Matter coming into existence in our dimensional world simply by God thinking it to be? 

Evolution is for the blind that refuse to see the glory of God in the creation that surrounds us. 

Hi Waggles.

Even as a “Spirit-filled Christian” with “a personal relationship with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit”, I have found myself wrong about many things in the past – whereby God, in His mercy and grace, has seen fit to correct me. I am likely still in error on some issues – and have faith that God will enlighten me, and correct me, according to His wisdom and timing; or else I will carry my errors until glorified with Him.

A Christian can be sincere, and “Spirit-filled”, and still be wrong about some things.

If a person's faith is not sincere, then they will ultimately give an account to God. But if a Christian is sincere in their faith, then we should afford them the same grace to allow God the requisite time to correct them (if He deems it necessary) as was afforded to us whilst in our error. We can, if so led by the Spirit, confront the error. But we should be careful to not assume the status of their Judge. There is only One Judge. And we have no right to assume God's privilege by presuming to assign others to a category of supposedly 'lessor Christians'.

 

 

[Waggles]

12 hours ago, Tristen said:

And we have no right to assume God's privilege by presuming to assign others to a category of supposedly 'lessor Christians'.

I did not callout any others as "lesser" Christians. I wrote of my experience as a Pentecostal Christian and how that relates to the issue of creation versus evolution.

The point of my blog was that creation by God can be experienced.

First converts are recreated by God - a new creation in Christ Jesus - a new heart, a new mind and a new life - metamorphosis. 

Second miracles are examples of God creating new matter that replaces old or unwanted matter without any visible effects other than the final outcome. Healing is about God creating new atoms and molecules to replace what is damaged or diseased. 

When Jesus changed water into red wine this is far more than adding cordial to water. For wine is a complex alcohol carbohydrate containing a multitude of organic molecules. Jesus was able to bypass the physical necessity of converting yeast and sugars into alcohol. We gloss over the descriptions of the many miracles and fail to appreciate what they represent - the supernatural - the creation of new matter in our world instantly by the thought of God. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Waggles

[Waggles]

Here is a challenge for those wanting to uphold evolution [even by God] 

Mark 6:35  And when the day was now far spent, his disciples came to him, and said [that] The place is desert, and the day is now far spent; 
36  send them away, that they may go into the country and villages round about, and buy themselves aught to eat. 
37  But he answered and said to them, Give YE them to eat. And they say to him, Shall we go and buy two hundred shillings’ worth of loaves, and give them to eat? 
38  And he saith to them, How many loaves have ye? go, see. And when they knew, they say, Five, and two fishes. 
39  And he commanded them that all should sit down by companies upon the green grass. 
40  And they sat down in ranks, by hundreds, and by fifties. 
41  And he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looked up to heaven and blessed, and brake the loaves; and gave to the disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among all. 
42  And all ate, and were filled. 
43  And they took up broken pieces, twelve basketfuls, also of the fishes. 
44  And they that ate the loaves were five thousand men.

So where did all the fish and bread come from? How was this new matter created instantly? How is the newly created food the same as the original items? If Jesus can instantly create out of nothing fishes and baked loaves of bread then Genesis 1 is well within his abilities to also create matter and life out of nothing.

Colossians 1:15  He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 
16  For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 

[Tristen]

1 hour ago, Waggles said:

I did not callout any others as "lesser" Christians. I wrote of my experience as a Pentecostal Christian and how that relates to the issue of creation versus evolution.

The point of my blog was that creation by God can be experienced.

First converts are recreated by God - a new creation in Christ Jesus - a new heart, a new mind and a new life - metamorphosis. 

Second miracles are examples of God creating new matter that replaces old or unwanted matter without any visible effects other than the final outcome. Healing is about God creating new atoms and molecules to replace what is damaged or diseased. 

When Jesus changed water into red wine this is far more than adding cordial to water. For wine is a complex alcohol carbohydrate containing a multitude of organic molecules. Jesus was able to bypass the physical necessity of converting yeast and sugars into alcohol. We gloss over the descriptions of the many miracles and fail to appreciate what they represent =- the supernatural - the creation of new matter in our world instantly by the thought of God. 

Hey Waggles.

Sorry if I misunderstood. I took your post to be claiming that those who subscribe to the secular stories of history “do not have a personal relationship with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit”. I do not think that is a fair (or justified) conclusion (even though I myself seem to agree with you on the issue of Biblical creationism).

But if that's not what you meant - my bad.