Those Days Will Be Shortened

[Last Daze]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If you expect the rapture at the end, what they are you alerting for? What are you expecting next?

Stay awake and have a fruitful life, iamlamad. 

[childoftheking]

53 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

My friend, it is you who seem slack on the studying part. Go back and look: GOD and John tell us that WRATH begins at the 6th seal. You probably don't know this, but the 70th week or the "tribulation" as you call it BEGINS at the 7th seal, and ENDS at the 7th vial. (The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint.)  God's wrath begins with the start of the DAY, which begins at the 6th seal. In other words, the DAY starts, then the WEEK starts. The "tribulation" as you call it will be INSIDE the Day of the Lord.

Every Trumpet judgment (first half of the week) will be God's wrath, and He begins to systematically destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth.  How could you read that 1/3 of the population dies, and it NOT be God's wrath? From Old Testament scriptures, THE DAY is about God destroying the planet and the sinners on the planet, and we know that THE DAY is the Day of His Wrath. (All we have to do is read to know this.) 

By the time the last half of the week comes, and the sinners left have not repented, God then completes His anger in the vials. they are FILLED with His wrath. (All we have to do is read to know this.) At this time, Jesus has not come, and Armageddon is still future. The week ENDS at the 7th vial. ("It is done.")

This all comes straight from the Word of God.

 

I am not arguing the facts because like you said, they are facts.   I am arguing that Yeshua TWICE said the ELECT will go through the Tribulation.   One He mentions the days will be shortened for the Elect during Tribulation, 2nd He mentions the Elect will be gathered AFTER the Tribulation.

 

Obviously, these ELECT that are alive during the Tribulation are not those BEHEADED!!

And the 1/3 Jews do not come into play (Revelation 12) until the 2nd half of Tribulation and they ALL escape to ONE PLACE Petra.   But the ELECT are gathered by the Angels from the 4 corners, meaning Believers are EVERYWHERE during the Tribulation.

 

Before even addressing you, I wonder, do you understand that the ELECT means those who are SAVED?

 

Because if you do, there is no mistaking what Yeshua is saying here!!

[childoftheking]

38 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Your first mistake: God calls both the church AND THE JEWS "the elect." You have the wrong group going through the "trib." Your second mistake: you are taking scriptures pointed to the JEWS and imagining they were pointed to the church. 

Please, allow me to assist you here: for the rapture of the church, ONLY PAUL got that revelation; therefore you will have to look in Paul's writings for the timing of the rapture of the church. 

Next, understand, There are three groups of people with end times scripture: the nations, the Jews, and the church. You are mixing up these scriptures and so ending up with confusion. 

There is no disagreement with Paul and with Matthew, because they are talking about different groups of people. If you study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, that is pointed to the church, and if you study to show yourself approved, you will discover (it is obvious you have not yet) that the timing Paul gives for the rapture of the church is JUST BEFORE God's wrath begins. Where is that in Revelation? It is just before the 6th seal. How amazing then, when we study the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age - they are told they must WAIT for the time of judgment until the last martyr is killed  as they were - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. What will make the last church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age. It will END with the pretrib rapture. The moment after the rapture, it will be DAY OF THE LORD, exactly as Rev. 6 shows us. 

Paul's rapture then, will come one moment before God begins His wrath - as shown at the 6th seal. Paul wrote that those living in Christ will get salvation (raptured) but those left behind will get "sudden destruction." What is this sudden destruction Paul wrote of? It will be an earthquake caused when God raises the dead in Christ from their graves. It is the great earthquake at the 6th seal! That is Paul's sudden destruction. 

It is no mistake then that John SAW the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal events. Go and read it in chapter 7: the great crowd too large to number. Think of it: around 50 generations of believers all raised up at the same time, then those alive in in Christ added: it is going to be in the billions. 

This is THREE (3) witnesses that the rapture of the church (not the Jews) will come before the 70th week. 

Question, when Paul tells us that when He received the revelation of the rapture, that it was a mystery - why would you expect Matthew to have that same mystery? It would not have been a mystery when God gave it to Paul. The truth is, if we want information on the rapture of the church, we must look in Paul's writings.

 

 

You do understand that the 4 corners = East, North, West, South?

Revelations 12 puts the Jews ALL in ONE PLACE, Petra...that is not the 4 corners by any stretch of the imagination!!

 

The ELECT is gathered from the 4 corners, so, this is more than just the Jews of Revelation 12!!

[childoftheking]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You have not even recognized that this is PROPHECY given by the elders. "They wrath is come" is a Greek Aorist tense verb that shows NO TIMING AT ALL.  Back up to the 6th seal and learn where His wrath will begin.

"The time of the dead that they should be judged" PROPHECY that will be fullfilled later. Chapter 20 tells us the sinners won't be judged until after the 1000 year reign of Christ. 

The rewards to the prophets and saints will not come until Jesus sets up His kingdom AFTER the trib has finished. (It finishes at the 7th vial.)  

Wow! Why don't you read the Word of God with understanding?"

The wrath of God is ALL THROUGH the "tribulation." His wrath is also concurrent with Satan's wrath. The vials of God's wrath are poured out when Satan's wrath is at its peak. 

Please, identify for us where you place "the tribulation" in Revelation. We can go on from there.

Then, please identify what will CAUSE "the tribulation?" What IS IT?

THERE ARE 2 TYPES OF PEOPLE MENTIONED IN REVELATION PERTAINING TO THE ELECT!!

 

 

(1)  These are the Elect that are gathered from the 4 corners mentioned by Yeshua in Matthew 24:

 

Revelation 7:

1And after these things I saw ((four angels standing on the four corners of the earth))

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

 

 

(2)  And these are those who were beheaded in the Tribulation:

Revelation 20:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received hismark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

 

 

***Pay attention to this verse in Revelation 7***

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,

Verse 9 (no man could number, a great multitude)...we know the Jews are 10 million as of right now in Israel, 1/3 is 3 million, not even close to a number we cannot count!!

Verse 14 reveals where this great multitude (obvious is more than just 3 million Jews from Petra) comes from...they come from the Tribulation  and gathered from the 4 corners like Matthew 24 and Yeshua mentions!!

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by childoftheking

[childoftheking]

1 hour ago, childoftheking said:

THERE ARE 2 TYPES OF PEOPLE MENTIONED IN REVELATION PERTAINING TO THE ELECT!!

 

 

(1)  These are the Elect that are gathered from the 4 corners mentioned by Yeshua in Matthew 24:

 

Revelation 7:

1And after these things I saw ((four angels standing on the four corners of the earth))

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

 

 

(2)  And these are those who were beheaded in the Tribulation:

Revelation 20:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received hismark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

 

 

***Pay attention to this verse in Revelation 7***

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,

Verse 9 (no man could number, a great multitude)...we know the Jews are 10 million as of right now in Israel, 1/3 is 3 million, not even close to a number we cannot count!!

Verse 14 reveals where this great multitude (obvious is more than just 3 million Jews from Petra) comes from...they come from the Tribulation  and gathered from the 4 corners like Matthew 24 and Yeshua mentions!!

 

 

 

Something else:

 

Let's bring up the SAME VERSE 9 again:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,

(1) we know these are Tribulation Elect/Saints

(2) we know they are a number that John could not count (the time when John was a Disciple, the historian Josephus tells us Israel had over 1 million people...so John would know 3 million Jews easily)

(3) Verse 9 specifies this group of Tribulation Elect/Saints are from ALL NATIONS, ALL KINDREDS, ALL PEOPLES, ALL TONGUES:   

 

So NO, Matthew 24 IS NOT about the Revelation 12 1/3 Jews, it is about the BRIDE that went through Tribulation.

This the best indicator of POST-TRIB!!

Edited April 29, 2019 by childoftheking

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, childoftheking said:

THERE ARE 2 TYPES OF PEOPLE MENTIONED IN REVELATION PERTAINING TO THE ELECT!!

(1)  These are the Elect that are gathered from the 4 corners mentioned by Yeshua in Matthew 24:

Revelation 7:

1And after these things I saw ((four angels standing on the four corners of the earth))

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

(2)  And these are those who were beheaded in the Tribulation:

Revelation 20:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received hismark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

***Pay attention to this verse in Revelation 7***

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,

Verse 9 (no man could number, a great multitude)...we know the Jews are 10 million as of right now in Israel, 1/3 is 3 million, not even close to a number we cannot count!!

Verse 14 reveals where this great multitude (obvious is more than just 3 million Jews from Petra) comes from...they come from the Tribulation  and gathered from the 4 corners like Matthew 24 and Yeshua mentions!!

Rev 7:1 is about the sealing of the 144,000. they are JEWS and Hebrews from other tribes - not related to the huge crowd too large to number.

7:9 is a different group: from all over the world, from all ethnic groups, all language groups: CLEARLY the raptured church, just raptured a moment before the 6th seal. Also clearly this cannot refer to Jews or Hebrews. They are NOT from all nations, kindred and tongues. Again, it is the just raptured church.

Ever see a show where they close the curtains between acts? What happens behind that curtain? They are rearranging the set to fit the next act. This is why John broke from his narrative of the seals between the 6th and 7th seals: the 7th seal starts the 70th week (the tribulation) but it absolutely cannot begin until God sees two events happen: the 144,000 MUST BE sealed for their protection, and the CHURCH must be safely in heaven out of God's wrath. This is what chapter 7 is about: God is rearranging the setting: getting these two things accomplished before the 7th seal officially starts the week.

 

Notice those on thrones in the first part of 20:4: they are the raptured church and Old Testament saints seated and judging. They are a separate group from the beheaded. You missed those.

No, you missed it. John has not even started the week, MUCH LESS arrived at the second half where the Beast will begin beheading people. No, there is NOT ONE HINT that these are martyrs - and they are not: they are resurrected saints.  The rapture comes before the "trib." Yes, they do come out of GT, but NOT the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, that come in the second half of the week. Again, John has not yet even started the week in chapter 7.  All; John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be being martyred for their love of Jesus Christ. For a martry, "tribulation" could not get any worse: they cannot be killed twice! Take for example, the bombings in the three churches in Sri Lanka: for those that died, it was GT.

Please, please follow the text! Jesus tells us that they begin to flee when they see the abomination: we SEE that fleeing in 12:6.  Again I say, in chapter 7, John has not yet even started the week. Your theories are miles off.

[iamlamad]

Just now, childoftheking said:

Something else:

Let's bring up the SAME VERSE 9 again:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,

(1) we know these are Tribulation Elect/Saints

(2) we know they are a number that John could not count (the time when John was a Disciple, the historian Josephus tells us Israel had over 1 million people...so John would know 3 million Jews easily)

(3) Verse 9 specifies this group of Tribulation Elect/Saints are from ALL NATIONS, ALL KINDREDS, ALL PEOPLES, ALL TONGUES:   

So NO, Matthew 24 IS NOT about the Revelation 12 1/3 Jews, it is about the BRIDE that went through Tribulation.

This the best indicator of POST-TRIB!!

No, you IMAGINE they are "tribulation" (really should call it 70th week) saints. You don't understand, God calls the church age "the tribulation." He calls the 7 years the 70th week of Daniel or the time of Jacob's trouble. John has not started the 70th week in chapter 7. These people, a crowd too large to number, cannot come out of the future: John does not write it that way. He is VERY particular about his chronology.  

Mark it down and memorize it so you will always have it: the 70th week of Daniel is MARKED (God's word to me, not mine) with 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it. 

Also make a note: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.  You are simply mistaken about Matthew 24. What? Do you imagine that the church goes to synogogues? (Luke's version of the same discourse.)

[childoftheking]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, you IMAGINE they are "tribulation" (really should call it 70th week) saints. You don't understand, God calls the church age "the tribulation." He calls the 7 years the 70th week of Daniel or the time of Jacob's trouble. John has not started the 70th week in chapter 7. These people, a crowd too large to number, cannot come out of the future: John does not write it that way. He is VERY particular about his chronology.  

Mark it down and memorize it so you will always have it: the 70th week of Daniel is MARKED (God's word to me, not mine) with 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it. 

Also make a note: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.  You are simply mistaken about Matthew 24. What? Do you imagine that the church goes to synogogues? (Luke's version of the same discourse.)

You are seriously in complete DENIAL!!

 

verse 14 specifies these came from the GREAT TRIBULATION:

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, (These are they which came out) of ((great tribulation)),

 

Verse 9 specifies they come from ALL NATIONS, ALL KINDREDS, ALL PEOPLES, ALL TONGUES

 

Absolutely that is not speaking of the 144k

 

144k is a number so great John could not count?

Are you SERIOUS?

 

Face it, whether you like it or not, you better MAN UP in God because if you are alive when the Tribulation begins, you are going through it until it ends, or you die!!

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, childoftheking said:

You are seriously in complete DENIAL!!

verse 14 specifies these came from the GREAT TRIBULATION:

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, (These are they which came out) of ((great tribulation)),

Verse 9 specifies they come from ALL NATIONS, ALL KINDREDS, ALL PEOPLES, ALL TONGUES

Absolutely that is not speaking of the 144k

144k is a number so great John could not count?

Are you SERIOUS?

Face it, whether you like it or not, you better MAN UP in God because if you are alive when the Tribulation begins, you are going through it until it ends, or you die!!

Pay attention now and you can learn something.

Rev. 2:²⁰ Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee [the church in Thyatira], because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

²¹ And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

²² Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

 

This is John, writing to an EXISTING CHURCH around 95 AD. God is telling Jezebel and the man who were sleeping with her that He, God, would cast them all into "great tribulation" unless they repent. 

Was God's plan then to keep them alive for 2000 years for THE GREAT TRIBULATION that Jesus spoke of? Or is it possible that God can create "great tribulation" any time He chooses? 

In other words, when we see the two words together, "great" and "tribulation" does it ALWAYS have to mean the days Jesus spoke of?  Did you just not notice that these two words together were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus? He had to add more words to describe the days He was talking about:  "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

There have been many times there was "great tribulation" for Israel. That is why Jesus had to add more words.  John used "great tribulation" in a latter to a church back in 95 AD. He was certainly not meaning the same days of GT that Jesus spoke of. 

Then John used the same two words together in chapter 7, and again CERTAINLY not referring to the days Jesus spoke of.

Next, do you really know what will CAUSE those days of GT that Jesus spoke of? Do you even know what the root word "tribulation" comes from - the Greek behind it? 

"Tribulation (2347) (thlipsis from thlibo = to crush, press together, squash, hem in, compress, squeeze in turn derived from thláo = to break) originally expressed sheer, physical pressure on a man. Thlipsis is a strong term which does not refer to minor inconveniences, but to real hardships."

Great tribulation means great pressure. So what will cause this great pressure that Jesus was speaking of? We find that out in Rev. 13.  People will be forces to worship an image (think Nebuchadnezzar and the 3 Hebrew guys that refused to bow)  lose their head, and take the mark or lose their head. But before this God will send angels to warn every person in their own language that taking the mark will doom them to the lake of fire. In the mean time, The Two Witnesses will shut off the rain. Fresh water will dry up. God will first cause 1/3 of the fresh water to be undrinkable, then finally ALL the fresh water into blood. In other words, there will be NO WATER for those running from the Beast. The Only water will be in the stores and without the mark, no one can buy water.  These things together will cause GREAT PRESSURE upon people to take the mark and bow to the image. Thirst can be a great motivator. Losing your head can also be a great motivator.

Next, WHERE in REvelation do these days of GT begin? Jesus said after the abomination. We can get very close to the abomination by looking for those that flee when they see it: we find that in 12:6.  Therefore, the days of GT that Jesus spoke of cannot possibly come before Rev. 12:6. But we read of God's warning not to take the mark, in chapter 14. Therefore we know that the days of GT Jesus spoke of CANNOT POSSIBLY come in Revelation before chapter 14.  How amazing! John wrote that the beheaded begin showing up in chapter 15. You see, Revelation makes a lot of sense when you believe the words written without preconceptions.

In other words, my friend, this is not denial, it is UNDERSTANDING - which you are missing entirely.

Now, understand what John is telling us: these are those who come out of great tribulation. We could say last week was a week of great tribulation. People DIED just because they went to church. How many stayed home from church after  - because of what happened? People are under pressure do to suicide bombers. No, it does not rise to the level of the days Jesus spoke of: that is why Jesus said like never before or after. When people DIE because they are in church, or because they love Jesus, tribulation was great for them: they cannot be killed twice!  So all John is saying is that at the time of the rapture, people will be DYING for their testimony.

Did you ever notice that John, in chapter 1 tells us that he was in THE tribulation? 

KJV:  "⁹ I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation

τῇ θλίψει

the tribulation

The "the" is there in all the Greek texts. Few translators translate it. In other words, John was there in 95 ad in "THE TRIBULATION."  God calls the church age, "the tribulation." When people are martyred, it becomes great tribulation. But when the Beast forces people to take the mark, or lose their head, it will be GT such as has never been before or ever will be again.

Now, please explain how a huge group too large to number in chapter 7 can possibly me martyrs from chapter 15? This I want to see.

Next, the number of martyrs during these coming days will be FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR less than this group of raptured saints: the church. It will number into the billions: perhaps 50 generations of believers! 

In other words, you are simply mistaken: there is no possible way this group too large to number are martyred saints from the days of GT that Jesus spoke of - days that will not start in Rev. until after the warning in chapter 14.

OF COURSE the great crowd too large to number is not related in any way to the 144,000. Did I ever say they WERE related? Except, John wrote of both groups in the same chapter, and both events will happen pretrib or pre-70th week.

You can stay behind if you wish,  and tribulate all you want. I am escaping (using God's escape clause in Luke) and going out on the first load - pretrib. I will be IN that group too large to number in chapter 7.

By the way, the Holocaust killed 6 million Jews. Take a wild guess: how many people will the Beast behead? Maybe ten times as much? Maybe 60 million? It will still not even be comparable to a group too large to number.

Edited April 30, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, childoftheking said:

You do understand that the 4 corners = East, North, West, South?

Revelations 12 puts the Jews ALL in ONE PLACE, Petra...that is not the 4 corners by any stretch of the imagination!!

The ELECT is gathered from the 4 corners, so, this is more than just the Jews of Revelation 12!!

No, you are mistaken yet again: only a small group of the Jews in Israel escape to the wilderness.  Did you not read of those still in Jerusalem who escape here in Zech 14?

⁴ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

⁵ And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

This may well be Matthew's gathering from chapter 24:

Isaiah 11:12

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

 

By the way, there is MORE to Israel that the land called Judea. Jesus told those living in Judea to flee. I guess you know, God has promised to bring 1/3 of the Jews through to the end. How do you expect the Jews in NY or CA to get to Judea and flee? Airplane?  No, only a very small percent of Israel worldwide will flee.