Those Days Will Be Shortened

[childoftheking]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

As far as I know, Lester Sumrall never learned where the 70th week begins in Revelation. He just assumed as many before him that the 70th week begins with the first seal. All these great men never learned  - it seems - that chapters 4 & 5 show the timing of the first seal as 32 AD - the year Jesus ascended. In most other points, Sumrall was dead on. This does not surprise me: God is a self revealing God, and over time keeps revealing more and more of these things. I have also heard Lester in person. He was a great man of God!  If I have read a Hayward book, I don't remember. 

I can tell you why you have not been quickened: it is your preconceived ideas. God the Holy Spirit is a perfect Gentleman. If you choose to believe something, He will allow it. It is not easy to overcome preconceptions. All I can say is, STAY OPEN. Don't assume you know it all. It is best to assume you know very little. 

I have an idea: since you disagree so much on those first five verses: write about them: tell us what you think they mean, verse by verse.

I really don't care of people believe what I write: I know God gave these revelations to me, so I don't really care who believes or don't believe. But I challenge people to take a specific verse and prove my theory on that verse is wrong. Few ever take me up on this.  I have shown what I believe each of the 5 verses in chapter 12 mean. Now it is your turn.

Question: In chapter 1 John is very much alive. In chapter 21, it is far far into our future. Therefore, somewhere between these two chapters is where we are NOW. What verse or verses do you chose for NOW?

 

 

Actually, Lester Sumrall knew the 70 weeks DID NOT pertain to the Tribulation, but solely upon the Coming Messiah.   This is why you won't find any information from Sumrall that ties the 70 weeks to the Tribulation, because he knew that IT DOES NOT relate to the Tribulation!!

[childoftheking]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If you imagine that the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture, you are in error: did you never notice WHERE that gathering gathers from? If you add what Luke said, that gathering gathers from all of heaven and all of earth! On the other hand, Paul's rapture gathers from under the earth and then those walking the earth: CLEARLY two different gatherings for two different purposes.

 

 

 

I have NEVER put the 2 together.   (1) is from God, and the other is from Paul.   God describes literal events that will take place during Tribulation and Paul describes the WRATH of God in Armageddon and final Judgement.   

 

I get sick and tired of People placing what Paul said over what God Himself said!!

 

When they do that, it's hard to believe God has EVER spoken to them about anything!!

[childoftheking]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"My point exactly" is that he outlined exactly what the first five verses of Rev. 12 tell us.  Everything in those 5 verses are written elsewhere except the fact that Satan was behind it. That point is made in Revelation.

So what if John knew these things before? Is God not capable of repeating? What kind of an argument is that against the real meaning of these verses? OF COURSE God could include things He had caused to be written before. 

 That is another example that Chapter 12 is about future events still to come!!  What did Jesus say to me?  Read it again:

“Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

Why do you argue about what you actually believe? The CHAPTER is about our future. It is only the parenthesis in 1-5 that is not. Is verses 6 through the end of the chapter good enough for future events to satisfy you? 

it [chapter 12] aligns with Daniel 12 when Daily Sacrifice is stopped by the antichrist.  I agree. Chapter 12 is a midpoint chapter and Daniel 12 begins at the midpoint of the week. Jesus told those who saw the abomination to flee the moment they see it, and in 12:6 we see that fleeing. This is proof positive that 12:6 is only a second or two AFTER the abomination event. But this does NOT mean that verses 1-5 are related: they are a parenthesis and are NOT related.

If we back up verse by verse from 12:6 looking for the abomination, we will not find it: God did not show it to John so John did not mention it. However, if we look for a main-line event (seals, trumpets, vials) we back up and find the 7th trumpet. That is why I am convinced that the abomination that stops the daily sacrifices will happen on earth when the 7th trumpet is sounded in heaven.

I might as well tell you: the very first words God spoke to me about Revelation is this:

One day as I was reading Daniel 9, verse 27, when my eyes and my mind got to the word “midst” sudden God spoke to me in what seemed like an audible voice:

“You could find that exact midpoint ‘clearly marked’ in the book of Revelation.”

I was suddenly “in the Spirit,” and could not speak, but my spirit man immediately spoke and ask “How would I find that?”

He answered,

“Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3½ years of time. When you find the mentions of the 3½ years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint.”

Then, almost as an afterthought, he concluded:

“In fact, you could find the entire 70th week ‘clearly marked.”

What could these words tell you about the 70th week - IF you were to believe these words came from Jesus? 

First, it would tell you conclusively that the 70th week is definitely IN Revelation. You would know that every mention of the 3.5 years is a part (the last half) of the 70th week.  

Could you tell if the 70th week was history or future? To me this is just common sense: why would God bother to fill up 9 chapters with historic events? Usually, a book of prophecy is mostly about FUTURE events.  

Next, you could learn (IF you believed) that the 70th week was "clearly marked" so you should be able to find the entire week delineated in Revelation.

AFter He told me I could find the entire week - clearly marked - I got a download of information without words: suddenly L knew that the reason I could find the entire week clearly marked was because God would use the same marker for the start and end as He used at the midpoint.

By the way, I believe the abomination spoken of by Jesus will be the man of sin entering the Jewish temple and declaring he is God. This will pollute the temple and the daily sacrifices will have to stop until the temple can be cleansed.  Therefore, when Daniel speaks of an event that will stop the daily sacrifice, and Jesus speaks of an abomination, I think they are speaking of the same event. It will be the event that divides the week.

In chapter 11 we have two mentions of the 3.5 years.

In chapter 12 we have two mentions of the 3.5 years.

In chapter 13, we have one mention of the 3.5 years.

Jesus said to me that each mention is of an event starting at the midpoint and going to the end of the week. Therefore, the midpoint Division point will be - MUST BE - somewhere in chapters 11-13.  

Daniel 12 begins (first verse) right at the midpoint, or perhaps slightly after.  Daniel saw these terrible events and wondered how long it would be to the end of them. He was told 3 1/2 years. Daniel wanted to know more: he was told:

from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Notice carefully, this is NOT a "FROM / TO" The point that was not clear to Daniel was the starting point of those 3.5 years. Now He is given the starting point for the countdown: TWO events will mark the starting point: one, the time that the daily sacrifices are taken away and the abomination set up.  But now Daniel is given another ending point: 129o days. This would be a 30 day extension from the 1260 days of 3.5 years. What to make of this? If we look at Revelation, we find that the WEEK ends at the 7th vial, chapter 16, but Jesus does not return until some time after that. This 1290th day may very well be the day Jesus returns. It is only a guess because John did not tell us.

Again John is given yet another extension of the 1260 days. This time it is the 1335th day - 0r another 45 days after the 1290th day. It would be a guess to wonder what will happen on that day. 

You are free to bind all you want: Jesus Christ - the head of the church - GAVE me these views. But do pray. I will take any prayers. It is possible that I have misunderstood What Jesus said in a point or two.

 

 

 

Somehow you got off your rocker:

 

You keep mentioning the first 5 verses of chapter 12, but the Woman and Dragon is mentioned in all 17 verses concerning the events to come!!   And anyone who has EVER READ the Torah, knows the history.

 

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, childoftheking said:

Somehow you got off your rocker:

You keep mentioning the first 5 verses of chapter 12, but the Woman and Dragon is mentioned in all 17 verses concerning the events to come!!   And anyone who has EVER READ the Torah, knows the history.

Look, this is not difficult - but you seem to make it seminary level! No, this is chapter is written in 6th grade level: kids could get the correct understanding. 

First, understand this is FUTURE. This should be obvious: none of the trumpet judgments that preceeded this chapter has ever happened. What did Jesus say: that this chapter was about the dragon and what he would be doing during the last half of the week." 

Now there will be trouble with all who have preconceived glasses and believe the 70th week is history. No, the chapter timing is at the midpoint (really just a moment after the midpoint abomination) and is ABOUT what the dragon will do for the rest of the week.

Verses 1-5: a parenthesis not related to the rest of the chapter

Verse 6: the woman fleeing into wilderness: doing EXACTLY what Jesus told those in Judea to do when they SEE the abomination. This is future: Daniel's abomination that will divide the week has not yet happened.  The woman (that part of Israel in Judea who will flee into the wilderness) will be gone for 1260 days - covering the entire last week of the 70th week.

Verses 7-9: war in heaven. Have you ever wondered why right here in chapter 12? Why does God wait until after the church has been raptured to cast the Dragon down?  Did you notice what happens at the sounding of the 7th trumpet? That is when the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ. But why here? What has happened to cause this transfer? 

The answer is simple: the book John saw in the hand of the Father is the lease document of earth: the lease given to Adam, but then usurped by Satan, the Dragon. At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the 6000 years of Satan's lease is up. Suddenly the devil will find he has NO MORE legal hold to earth. The signal for Michael to go after Satan to cast him down will be the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Jesus then will get His planet back at the 7th trumpet, but will not take possession then: He has promised the Beast his 42 months. 

So when the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven, several things happen on earth: first, the man of sin will enter the temple and cause the daily sacrifices to cease: the very abomination that Jesus warned about. Next, Michael goes after Satan. Next, those in Judea, having seen the abomination, begin to flee. IN HEAVEN, the earth is given back to its rightful owner.

Verses 10-12: The announcement and rejoicing that Satan is cast down.

Verses 13-16: The Dragon goes after the woman who has fled - but discovers that God is protecting her

Verse 17: Satan then turns to the remnant of the church. It is only a remnant left, because the pretrib rapture took out the main load. All that is left at the midpoint is a remnant. Satan will turn on anyone who loves Jesus.

Yes, of course the woman and the dragon is mentioned. God told me to count how many times the dragon was mentioned: I counted 32 times. This entire CHAPTER is about the dragon. But it is pointed to what the dragon will be doing during the last half of the future 70th week of Daniel. 

Since God was showing John what the dragon would be doing in the last half of the week, God made a choice: show John what the dragon DID (history) when Jesus was born. The first 5 verses are written as a parenthesis about a different time.

Now, please, if you disagree, show your work! SHOW us verse by verse WHY you disagree.

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, childoftheking said:

Actually, Lester Sumrall knew the 70 weeks DID NOT pertain to the Tribulation, but solely upon the Coming Messiah.   This is why you won't find any information from Sumrall that ties the 70 weeks to the Tribulation, because he knew that IT DOES NOT relate to the Tribulation!!

I searched for an hour online for Lester teaching on Rev. 12. I could find nothing. Somehow I doubt what you are saying here. Can you find some quotes to back you up?

I found one of his books online:

A. A great sign appeared in heaven (verse one). This sign was a woman clothed with the sun, wearing a crown of 12 stars.  Apparently Lester did not know this fits perfectly with the constellation Virgo, on Sept 1, 2 BC to fit the time of Christ's birth.

B. She labored in childbirth, and bore a son. This woman could possibly symbolize Israel.

He got this one right, but was is not sure.

C. The appearance of the dragon in verse three is also considered a sign in the heavens. This dragon is the devil. He hated the woman, and she fled to the wilderness for safety. 

D. The dragon had seven heads, and ten horns. Each head wore a crown.

E. Verse four proves this dragon to be Satan. He drew a third of the stars of heaven with him (angels who became demons). He also attempted to destroy the child at birth.  Good point: the very point of the first 5 verses.

F. The child was destined to rule all nations. He was caught up to heaven. Good: JESUS not the church!

G. The woman fled into the wilderness, to a place prepared for her by the Lord. She will remain here for 1,260 days, or three-and-a-half years. This will occur during the Great Tribulation.

And you say He did not relate this to the 70th week? Did you not understand that the 1260 days if HALF of the 70th week? I am beginning to doubt much of what you write.

H. Michael and his angelic armies will fight the dragon and his angels. The dragon will be defeated.

I. In verse nine, the dragon loses all of his power and his angels.

J. The male child of the woman could represent either the Lord Jesus Christ, or the church. Some people have taught that He represents the 144,000 Jews mentioned in Revelation chapter seven. 3. THE BRIDE Revelation 19:7-9, Let us be glad and rejoice,  Again, He is not sure of himself.

There has been MUCH revelation knowledge given since Lester studied these things and wrote his study guides. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, childoftheking said:

I have NEVER put the 2 together.   (1) is from God, and the other is from Paul.   God describes literal events that will take place during Tribulation and Paul describes the WRATH of God in Armageddon and final Judgement.   

I get sick and tired of People placing what Paul said over what God Himself said!!

When they do that, it's hard to believe God has EVER spoken to them about anything!!

This is good. But you HAVE compared Rev. 12, somewhere in the first five verses, to Paul's writing about a woman in travail. You were mistaken then.

I don't put red letters in the bible above what Paul wrote. Why? Because what Paul wrote came through Jesus anyway. What Paul wrote is usually DIRECTLY written to the Gentile church of today. Much of what Jesus said was directed towards the Jews.

Edited May 3, 2019 by iamlamad

[childoftheking]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Look, this is not difficult - but you seem to make it seminary level! No, this is chapter is written in 6th grade level: kids could get the correct understanding. 

First, understand this is FUTURE. This should be obvious: none of the trumpet judgments that preceeded this chapter has ever happened. What did Jesus say: that this chapter was about the dragon and what he would be doing during the last half of the week." 

Now there will be trouble with all who have preconceived glasses and believe the 70th week is history. No, the chapter timing is at the midpoint (really just a moment after the midpoint abomination) and is ABOUT what the dragon will do for the rest of the week.

Verses 1-5: a parenthesis not related to the rest of the chapter

Verse 6: the woman fleeing into wilderness: doing EXACTLY what Jesus told those in Judea to do when they SEE the abomination. This is future: Daniel's abomination that will divide the week has not yet happened.  The woman (that part of Israel in Judea who will flee into the wilderness) will be gone for 1260 days - covering the entire last week of the 70th week.

Verses 7-9: war in heaven. Have you ever wondered why right here in chapter 12? Why does God wait until after the church has been raptured to cast the Dragon down?  Did you notice what happens at the sounding of the 7th trumpet? That is when the kingdoms of the world are transferred to Jesus Christ. But why here? What has happened to cause this transfer? 

The answer is simple: the book John saw in the hand of the Father is the lease document of earth: the lease given to Adam, but then usurped by Satan, the Dragon. At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the 6000 years of Satan's lease is up. Suddenly the devil will find he has NO MORE legal hold to earth. The signal for Michael to go after Satan to cast him down will be the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Jesus then will get His planet back at the 7th trumpet, but will not take possession then: He has promised the Beast his 42 months. 

So when the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven, several things happen on earth: first, the man of sin will enter the temple and cause the daily sacrifices to cease: the very abomination that Jesus warned about. Next, Michael goes after Satan. Next, those in Judea, having seen the abomination, begin to flee. IN HEAVEN, the earth is given back to its rightful owner.

Verses 10-12: The announcement and rejoicing that Satan is cast down.

Verses 13-16: The Dragon goes after the woman who has fled - but discovers that God is protecting her

Verse 17: Satan then turns to the remnant of the church. It is only a remnant left, because the pretrib rapture took out the main load. All that is left at the midpoint is a remnant. Satan will turn on anyone who loves Jesus.

Yes, of course the woman and the dragon is mentioned. God told me to count how many times the dragon was mentioned: I counted 32 times. This entire CHAPTER is about the dragon. But it is pointed to what the dragon will be doing during the last half of the future 70th week of Daniel. 

Since God was showing John what the dragon would be doing in the last half of the week, God made a choice: show John what the dragon DID (history) when Jesus was born. The first 5 verses are written as a parenthesis about a different time.

Now, please, if you disagree, show your work! SHOW us verse by verse WHY you disagree.

 

 

 

This is what you believe!!

 

Even this chart shows the Second Coming happening AFTER TRIBULATION ENDS!!

Edited May 3, 2019 by childoftheking

[childoftheking]

8 minutes ago, childoftheking said:

This is what you believe!!

 

Even this chart shows the Second Coming happening AFTER TRIBULATION ENDS!!

 

Now, take in effect that this CHART shows us going through the TRIBULATION, I can buy this theory!!

Edited May 3, 2019 by childoftheking

[childoftheking]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I searched for an hour online for Lester teaching on Rev. 12. I could find nothing. Somehow I doubt what you are saying here. Can you find some quotes to back you up?

I found one of his books online:

A. A great sign appeared in heaven (verse one). This sign was a woman clothed with the sun, wearing a crown of 12 stars.  Apparently Lester did not know this fits perfectly with the constellation Virgo, on Sept 1, 2 BC to fit the time of Christ's birth.

B. She labored in childbirth, and bore a son. This woman could possibly symbolize Israel.

He got this one right, but was is not sure.

C. The appearance of the dragon in verse three is also considered a sign in the heavens. This dragon is the devil. He hated the woman, and she fled to the wilderness for safety. 

D. The dragon had seven heads, and ten horns. Each head wore a crown.

E. Verse four proves this dragon to be Satan. He drew a third of the stars of heaven with him (angels who became demons). He also attempted to destroy the child at birth.  Good point: the very point of the first 5 verses.

F. The child was destined to rule all nations. He was caught up to heaven. Good: JESUS not the church!

G. The woman fled into the wilderness, to a place prepared for her by the Lord. She will remain here for 1,260 days, or three-and-a-half years. This will occur during the Great Tribulation.

And you say He did not relate this to the 70th week? Did you not understand that the 1260 days if HALF of the 70th week? I am beginning to doubt much of what you write.

H. Michael and his angelic armies will fight the dragon and his angels. The dragon will be defeated.

I. In verse nine, the dragon loses all of his power and his angels.

J. The male child of the woman could represent either the Lord Jesus Christ, or the church. Some people have taught that He represents the 144,000 Jews mentioned in Revelation chapter seven. 3. THE BRIDE Revelation 19:7-9, Let us be glad and rejoice,  Again, He is not sure of himself.

There has been MUCH revelation knowledge given since Lester studied these things and wrote his study guides. 

 

I can agree that knowledge has been gained since Sumrall was on Earth.

 

 

[Diaste]

On 5/1/2019 at 10:56 PM, childoftheking said:

This is what I will then say...

What I and others have been posting, can be found in scripture.   And we have provided actual scripture to verify as such.   But what you are claiming, I cannot verify through scripture.   So that leaves me at a crossroad.   Because, the fact I cannot verify what you claim by scripture, means i have to ignore scripture to accept what you are claiming.   And honestly, you need to see from my viewpoint, to ignore God based upon what you claim, is ignoring God!!   That to me, just does not add up to something I feel comfortable with.

I agree. But we should be open to insight that does not contradict the written word even if it doesn't appear in scripture, and as long as it squares with the concepts and character of our Lord and savior. Rare as hen's teeth perhaps but there is some out there. Not saying we see it on this forum, just saying there are prophecies and exhortations and the like coming from vessels of the Lord and we should not ignore that; it's good for our spirit and understanding.