THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PETER AND PAUL ON THE RESURRECTION

[JohnD]

I find it interesting how people can find alleged differences in a Bible subject rather than considering one may be going a bit deeper than the other in exposition, or approaching it from a different perspective. It's the same glass of water filled to the half way point (bottom half btw). 

[discipler777]

4 hours ago, stillseeking said:

For an example of the lack of clarity in these distinctions, consider the following:  Should a husband and wife have relations during the wife's period, (assuming both want to)?

Leviticus 20:18 - ¹⁸ “‘If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her monthly period, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them are to be cut off from their people.

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1CORINTHIANS.3:16-17 (NKJV) = 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

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1COR.6:18-20 = 18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

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1COR.5:4-5 =  4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

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If the above Gentile Christian married couple does not repent of their sexual immoral sin(LEV.20:18 is an essential or non-burdensome law of God), they may not be saved, eg they may curse God/Jesus and die while suffering the destruction of their flesh for their willful sin.(JOB.2:9) And it's incredulous that many wonder why some Gentile Christians suffer terminal cancer.

[stillseeking]

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If the above Gentile Christian married couple does not repent of their sexual immoral sin(LEV.20:18 is an essential or non-burdensome law of God), they may not be saved, eg they may curse God/Jesus and die while suffering the destruction of their flesh for their willful sin.(JOB.2:9) And it's incredulous that many wonder why some Gentile Christians suffer terminal cancer.

What makes a law essential or non-essential?  I've already stated the case both ways (for and against it being "essential")--so why do you believe the argument for it being essential is stronger? 

What do you believe is the definition of "porneia" (the Greek word translated as "sexual immorality" in both the Acts 15 example I gave and the Corinthians example you provided)? 

And, since you believe that (otherwise permitted) sex is NOT permitted if the woman is on her monthly, then do you also believe it's unlawful to touch her during that time?  (Because that's part of the same sexual purity law, as I showed by including both Lev. 20:18 AND Lev 15:19 in my post above). 

• If it's NOT ok to touch her, do you then adhere to that by never shaking hands with a woman ever? 
• If it IS ok, then why do you follow that sexual purity law insofar as prohibiting the act of intercourse itself but not the "don't even touch her" part? 

This terminal cancer reference is a bit confusing, and seemingly off topic.  Can you explain what you're getting at? 

I have more questions for you but will leave it at this short list for now

[discipler777]

On 12/19/2018 at 1:50 PM, stillseeking said:

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To continue to do well, the new GC should gradually learn to keep the other non-burdensome or essential laws, especially moral laws, eg the Ten Commandments at EXODUS.20:1-17

How can we be sure which ones are essential vs. non-essential? 

Jesus didn't seem to make that distinction in Matthew 23:1

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ² “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. ³ So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

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At ACTS.21:20-25, God required the Jewish Christians to continue to keep His Law or Moses Law, as many laws as possible, because it was not a burden to them since they had done so from childhood. Not so for most Gentiles who were lawless from childhood wrt God's Law/commandments/Word. At MATTHEW.23:1, Jesus Christ was speaking to His fellow Jews, not to lawless Gentiles.

Christians, whether of the Jews or Gentiles, who do not keep God's Law accordingly or go and willfully break His Law will not do well on this earth(eg get terminal cancer) and may even end up unsaved in the end. Gentile Christians should not ignore or reject the essential/non-burdensome laws of God found in the Old Testament, especially non-burdensome moral laws. If they do so, it will be to their own peril.(HEBREWS.6:1-8, 1TIMOTHY.4:1)

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MATTHEW.24:9-14 (NKJV) = 9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

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HEBREWS.8:10-12 (NKJV) = 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

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Edited December 24, 2018 by discipler777

[stillseeking]

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Christians, whether of the Jews or Gentiles, who do not keep God's Law accordingly or go and willfully break His Law will not do well on this earth

Sure, but which ones, and why or why not?  How do most Christians end up coming to the conclusion that eating shrimp is ok whilst other things are not ok? 

The only Christians I am aware of who strive to keep all the Old Testament laws are Messianic Jews (Jewish believers in Yeshua as the Messiah) and those caught up in the Hebrew Roots movement.  Is this sort of thing the philosophy that you advocate? 

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Gentile Christians should not ignore or reject the essential/non-burdensome laws of God found in the Old Testament, especially non-burdensome moral laws. If they do so, it will be to their own peril.(HEBREWS.6:1-8, 1TIMOTHY.4:1)

I will post those verses here.  They do not seem to say what you suggest; do you mind clarifying how you derived the meaning of "essential laws" and how you believe those verses instruct us to adhere to those things specifically? 

Hebrews 6:1-8 -

6 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,^[a] and of faith in God, ² instruction about cleansing rites,^[b] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. ³ And God permitting, we will do so.

⁴ It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, ⁵ who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age ⁶ and who have fallen^[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. ⁷ Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. ⁸ But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

1 Timothy 4:1 -

4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

[stillseeking]

And these questions still

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What makes a law essential or non-essential?  I've already stated the case both ways (for and against it being "essential")--so why do you believe the argument for it being essential is stronger? 

What do you believe is the definition of "porneia" (the Greek word translated as "sexual immorality" in both the Acts 15 example I gave and the Corinthians example you provided)? 

And, since you believe that (otherwise permitted) sex is NOT permitted if the woman is on her monthly, then do you also believe it's unlawful to touch her during that time?  (Because that's part of the same sexual purity law, as I showed by including both Lev. 20:18 AND Lev 15:19 in my post above). 

• If it's NOT ok to touch her, do you then adhere to that by never shaking hands with a woman ever? 
• If it IS ok, then why do you follow that sexual purity law insofar as prohibiting the act of intercourse itself but not the "don't even touch her" part? 

 

[Michael37]

13 minutes ago, discipler777 said:

Christians, whether of the Jews or Gentiles, who do not keep God's Law accordingly will not do well on this earth and may even be unsaved in the end. Gentile Christians should not ignore or reject the essential/non-burdensome laws of God found in the Old Testament, especially non-burdensome moral laws. If they do so, it will be to their own peril.(HEBREWS.6:1-8, 1TIMOTHY.4:1)

Your statement fails to account for this passage so cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged.

Rom 3:19-28
(19)  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
(20)  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(21)  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(22)  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(23)  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(24)  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(25)  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(26)  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(27)  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(28)  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

[discipler777]

46 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

1 hour ago, discipler777 said:

Christians, whether of the Jews or Gentiles, who do not keep God's Law accordingly will not do well on this earth and may even be unsaved in the end. Gentile Christians should not ignore or reject the essential/non-burdensome laws of God found in the Old Testament, especially non-burdensome moral laws. If they do so, it will be to their own peril.(HEBREWS.6:1-8, 1TIMOTHY.4:1)

Your statement fails to account for this passage so cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged.

Rom 3:19-28
(19)  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
(20)  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(21)  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(22)  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(23)  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(24)  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
(25)  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(26)  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(27)  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
(28)  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

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HEBREWS.6:1-8 (NKJV) = The Peril of Not Progressing

6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

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The verses at ROMANS.3:19-28 that you quoted are the elementary principles of Christ which mature Christians should not be still dwelling on or not as babes in Christ still drinking spiritual milk(1COR,3:1-3) but to move on to perfection by feeding on solid foods/bread of life. Hence, my emphasis on the big difference between the "before and after" being saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

[discipler777]

1 hour ago, stillseeking said:

And, since you believe that (otherwise permitted) sex is NOT permitted if the woman is on her monthly, then do you also believe it's unlawful to touch her during that time?  (Because that's part of the same sexual purity law, as I showed by including both Lev. 20:18 AND Lev 15:19 in my post above). 

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Leviticus 15:19 (NKJV) = ‘If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood, she shall be set apart seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening.

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1JOHN.5:16-17 = 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

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There is a big difference between the sin of a man having sex with his wife during her menstrual period and the sin of just touching his unclean wife, ie the curse/judgment/punishment of God are different. It's like the big difference between a man committing a peeping Tom/ogling offense and rape+murder against a woman. Hence, .......

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1CORINTHIANS.6:9-10 = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

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REVELATION.22:14-15 = 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

[Michael37]

19 minutes ago, discipler777 said:

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HEBREWS.6:1-8 (NKJV) = The Peril of Not Progressing

6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

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The verses at ROMANS.3:19-28 that you quoted are the elementary principles of Christ which mature Christians should not be still dwelling on or not as babes in Christ still drinking spiritual milk(1COR,3:1-3) but to move on to perfection by feeding on solid foods/bread of life. Hence, my emphasis on the big difference between the "before and after" being saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Still making use of the law as a schoolmaster because of a lack of skill in the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ is the what the Judaising babes in Christ were doing, and is what the writer of Hebrews is addressing in Hebrews 5 & 6.