Evolution Question About Dinosaurs

[Spock]

3 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom all,

You are probably all reliably informed of all the evidence concerning a young earth and our coexistence with dinosaurs.  However, here is a handy summary page to provide anyone who wants the most pertinent information collated.

faithandtheword.com/dinosaurs/

Love & Shalom

Wow, what a GREAT eye-opening YouTube video showing the “behemoth” to be the Sauropod dinosaur. 

I have been  very skeptical reading some of my brothers in Christ saying they believe behemoth =elephant. That just didn’t make any sense to me based on what was written.  Heck, the tail like a cedar was all I needed to eliminate the elephant. And of course these bones they have found are HUGE..not an elephant’s bones.

Now, the evidence that they have found blood cells or tissues is very compelling indeed knowing that this should not be if the bones were at least 65 MYA. I guess I will have to read some more on this. I would like to read any rebuttals to see how some scientist could explain such being 65 million years old. 

So, this certainly is something to ponder.....for those who believe dinosaurs roamed earth 6000 years ago, stuff like this certainly gives them some ammunition.

i have never believed in macro evolution and definitely never believed the Dino evolved from some fish, etc. in fact even the fossil record I believe shows Dino bones suddenly coming onto the scene with no transistional bones preceding it, so that seems pretty conclusive to me that the Dino was MADE AS IS, not evolved over time.

Thus, the next question to determine is WHEN  did Dino walk on this earth? I’ve had no problem thinking maybe he did walk on the earth 200 millions years ago because scientific evidence does seem to show an old universe, so why not an old earth?  

Does this violate God’s word? I would NEVER agree to that because I know God’s word is trustworthy. So what does God’s word say about creation? 

“In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

 

Back to Spock: Well, it says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, but does it say WHEN he did that?  Nope......so from my way of thinking, it could have been 13.8 BYA rather than 6000 years ago. In addition, Noahs flood may not have been the only flood on the earth.

There all sorts of possibilities, but I have never felt the need to absolutely defend the fact that the earth HAS TO BE 6000 years old.  I do stringently defend the word of God but like I said, I don’t see where in the Bible it says the EARTH is 6000 years old, although I do agree, todays man did begin with Adam around 6000 years ago.... the Bible does pretty much show through genealogy given this to be so. 

Okay, one question.....if the Dino was here with Adam 6000 years ago and entered the arc with Noah, how come they are extinct? What happened to them when they got off the arc? Thanks

great discussion mates. Thanks

spock

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom Spock,

Ah! I'm so glad the page was of use to you in some way!  Thank you for checking it out.

12 minutes ago, Spock said:

Thus, the next question to determine is WHEN  did Dino walk on this earth?

So, my take based on the evidence found from around the world is that dinosaurs and man coexisted at the same time. 

The Bible is very specific about times and dates when they are important.  The idea that the Earth's age would stretch back that long only to be ruled by creatures, not in His image, goes against the Word AND the evidence we find worldwide. 

The "gap theory" is also without strong biblical backing and probably created by Jewish Mystics to try and fit in the dinosaurs and the strange evidence that was emerging across the world in recent years.  It also seems to be an attempt to fit in satan's pre-fall, which has no scriptural backing. The gap theory is like a compromise when there really doesn't need to be one.  So why the big drive for the gap theory?  People are not being educated on the evidence that is around - namely how rock layers are formed, how fossils are dated (and the reliability) and the assumptions made to formulate the age of the earth.

I can't put any of this in brief.  However, I do have help for you.  If you learn the PROOF for Noah's Flood, then it will DISPROVE Evolution, as both theories cannot coexist.  Why, because they use the SAME evidence for the age of the Earth. It requires your time to read but, if you take it in bite-sized chunks, this will give you all you need to know.  You can read it here: 

Site: Global Flood vs Evolution

22 minutes ago, Spock said:

how come they are extinct? What happened to them when they got off the arc?

Great question.  Consider the matter like this...

• Man was allowed to be a carnivore after the Flood. Eventually as families grew and spread, capturing and killing a dinosaur would provide more food for longer.  Without any notification of "endangered species" in the news, and a smaller number of dinosaurs, this could have easily lead to the extinction of many. 
• Also, we are told that after the Flood a "mighty hunter" rose to power, called Nimrod.  Now, to gain such fame and leadership, what kind of animals do you suppose he killed?  A Lion? a Crocodile? Each are fearsome yes, but nothing like a "dragon-slayer" would have been!  Nimrod may have been a mighty hunter in terms of volume or size of creature - perhaps both.  That brings me to my final point - dragons. 
• Are you so sure that all of the dinosaurs became extinct so long ago?  If you go back to the dinosaur page I originally posted, there are links which show the many dinosaur architecture, pottery, cave paintings and myths of dragons -worldwide. The link again is here: Dinosaurs  Perhaps the last of the dinosaurs were chased down and killed for either food or trophies of bravery?  It certainly looks that way by the evidence.

The Global Flood is one worth studying.  Once you prove that, all the evidence we find worldwide falls into place and isn't so complicated to explain with the need of Evolution or Gap Theory.  The Bible proves itself utterly trustworthy in the matter, with more evidence to back it up that anything for Evolution.  Again, it all goes back to the Flood.  Get that right and everything fits.

Keeping asking questions! There are always answers to find.

Love & Shalom

[Spock]

5 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom Spock,

Ah! I'm so glad the page was of use to you in some way!  Thank you for checking it out.

So, my take based on the evidence found from around the world is that dinosaurs and man coexisted at the same time. 

The Bible is very specific about times and dates when they are important.  The idea that the Earth's age would stretch back that long only to be ruled by creatures, not in His image, goes against the Word AND the evidence we find worldwide. 

The "gap theory" is also without strong biblical backing and probably created by Jewish Mystics to try and fit in the dinosaurs and the strange evidence that was emerging across the world in recent years.  It also seems to be an attempt to fit in satan's pre-fall, which has no scriptural backing. The gap theory is like a compromise when there really doesn't need to be one.  So why the big drive for the gap theory?  People are not being educated on the evidence that is around - namely how rock layers are formed, how fossils are dated (and the reliability) and the assumptions made to formulate the age of the earth.

I can't put any of this in brief.  However, I do have help for you.  If you learn the PROOF for Noah's Flood, then it will DISPROVE Evolution, as both theories cannot coexist.  Why, because they use the SAME evidence for the age of the Earth. It requires your time to read but, if you take it in bite-sized chunks, this will give you all you need to know.  You can read it here: 

Site: Global Flood vs Evolution

Great question.  Consider the matter like this...

• Man was allowed to be a carnivore after the Flood. Eventually as families grew and spread, capturing and killing a dinosaur would provide more food for longer.  Without any notification of "endangered species" in the news, and a smaller number of dinosaurs, this could have easily lead to the extinction of many. 
• Also, we are told that after the Flood a "mighty hunter" rose to power, called Nimrod.  Now, to gain such fame and leadership, what kind of animals do you suppose he killed?  A Lion? a Crocodile? Each are fearsome yes, but nothing like a "dragon-slayer" would have been!  Nimrod may have been a mighty hunter in terms of volume or size of creature - perhaps both.  That brings me to my final point - dragons. 
• Are you so sure that all of the dinosaurs became extinct so long ago?  If you go back to the dinosaur page I originally posted, there are links which show the many dinosaur architecture, pottery, cave paintings and myths of dragons -worldwide. The link again is here: Dinosaurs  Perhaps the last of the dinosaurs were chased down and killed for either food or trophies of bravery?  It certainly looks that way by the evidence.

The Global Flood is one worth studying.  Once you prove that, all the evidence we find worldwide falls into place and isn't so complicated to explain with the need of Evolution or Gap Theory.  The Bible proves itself utterly trustworthy in the matter, with more evidence to back it up that anything for Evolution.  Again, it all goes back to the Flood.  Get that right and everything fits.

Keeping asking questions! There are always answers to find.

Love & Shalom

More AWSOME stuff brother and great answers. Now that I recently retired I have much more time to study more in depth so I will seriously reads these sites and links you have provided. 

Up until today, I haven’t concerned myself much with the question of  how old is the Earth because either way is fine by me. Like I said, Adam did not evolve, and was created about 6000 years ago....that is a given. So, if the earth is billions of years old, well God has been around for a while, so why should I think he had to create the earth relatively recently? 

And, what happened before Adam really didn’t concern me all that much because apparently God didn’t feel the need to tell me. I know the gap theory shows Satan ruling here in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 and maybe the Dino was here 200 MYA ago. So what? What has been important to me has been the RECENT time beginning with Adam, the first man.  I always stayed away from debating this with unbelievers because my goal is to talk about Jesus, his life, death, words, and resurrection....not get caught up in the age of the earth, dinosaurs, and fossils. I’m not saying the latter isn’t important.....just was not my THING. 

So, I’ve always been open minded and never really could say I absolutely believe this one way of thinking. (Old vs young earth), but I will admit, I did listen to what science was sending out and an old earth seemed to be the wiser choice.  Maybe not so, I don’t know.    It felt safer that way, especially knowing science wasn’t my thing and I didn’t feel prepared enough to debate these issues with scientific people who probably already had their minds made up anyhow. I look for seekers, not mockers! I know not to cast pearls before swine if you get my drift. 

But, it doesn’t hurt to increase knowledge, right?  You never know how God can use us or with who he can use us with. So yes, I will read these pages with an open mind. Maybe God wants me to be better prepared. Lol. But, I’d still much rather talk about Jesus, salvation, and His second coming. 

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom Spock

14 minutes ago, Spock said:

Now that I recently retired I have much more time to study more in depth so I will seriously reads these sites and links you have provided. 

Yes, please do.  It won't take you that long to read through.  It's thorough just enough without being too technical.

3 minutes ago, Spock said:

So, I’ve always been open minded and never really could say I absolutely believe this one way of thinking. (Old vs young earth), but I will admit, I did listen to what science was sending out and an old earth seemed to be the wiser choice.  Maybe not so, I don’t know. 

Yes I can understand that.  Evolutionists like to give the appearance that they have an abundance of proof and evidence and back it up by mocking - which implies they have looked into all eventualities and Evolution is the one.  It can be quite disturbing for the layman who doesn't have access to the many resources that they do, so we take their word for granted.  However, a man in a white labcoat in a university or in a suit on the news doesn't equal the truth.  Thankfully, the matter isn't as hard to understand as some Evolutionists imply that it is.  If the layman takes all the evidence (as provided in the Global Flood Study link) and assesses it for THEMSELVES - a Global Flood Theory not only sounds reasonable but very likely that it happened as recent as the Bible said. Praise Yahweh that He has left a trail of breadcrumbs for anyone who doesn't take the word of a labcoat and seeks for themselves. 

8 minutes ago, Spock said:

Maybe God wants me to be better prepared

If you feel that (and you seem genuinely interested in the topic) then you might be right brother.  It could be that one day you are in a position surrounded with people pressing you for answers. If you have them, some might be saved!  Even if not, your faith will be strengthen and refined from such a study. It's a win-win.

10 minutes ago, Spock said:

But, I’d still much rather talk about Jesus, salvation, and His second coming. 

Amen! Very wise words. This is ultimately all that counts!

I know you said you were recently retired, but it sounds like the Father may have plans to now make you full time!

Love & Shalom

[ARGOSY]

1 hour ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Shalom Spock,

Ah! I'm so glad the page was of use to you in some way!  Thank you for checking it out.

So, my take based on the evidence found from around the world is that dinosaurs and man coexisted at the same time. 

The Bible is very specific about times and dates when they are important.  The idea that the Earth's age would stretch back that long only to be ruled by creatures, not in His image, goes against the Word AND the evidence we find worldwide. 

The "gap theory" is also without strong biblical backing and probably created by Jewish Mystics to try and fit in the dinosaurs and the strange evidence that was emerging across the world in recent years.  It also seems to be an attempt to fit in satan's pre-fall, which has no scriptural backing. The gap theory is like a compromise when there really doesn't need to be one.  So why the big drive for the gap theory?  People are not being educated on the evidence that is around - namely how rock layers are formed, how fossils are dated (and the reliability) and the assumptions made to formulate the age of the earth.

I can't put any of this in brief.  However, I do have help for you.  If you learn the PROOF for Noah's Flood, then it will DISPROVE Evolution, as both theories cannot coexist.  Why, because they use the SAME evidence for the age of the Earth. It requires your time to read but, if you take it in bite-sized chunks, this will give you all you need to know.  You can read it here: 

Site: Global Flood vs Evolution

Great question.  Consider the matter like this...

• Man was allowed to be a carnivore after the Flood. Eventually as families grew and spread, capturing and killing a dinosaur would provide more food for longer.  Without any notification of "endangered species" in the news, and a smaller number of dinosaurs, this could have easily lead to the extinction of many. 
• Also, we are told that after the Flood a "mighty hunter" rose to power, called Nimrod.  Now, to gain such fame and leadership, what kind of animals do you suppose he killed?  A Lion? a Crocodile? Each are fearsome yes, but nothing like a "dragon-slayer" would have been!  Nimrod may have been a mighty hunter in terms of volume or size of creature - perhaps both.  That brings me to my final point - dragons. 
• Are you so sure that all of the dinosaurs became extinct so long ago?  If you go back to the dinosaur page I originally posted, there are links which show the many dinosaur architecture, pottery, cave paintings and myths of dragons -worldwide. The link again is here: Dinosaurs  Perhaps the last of the dinosaurs were chased down and killed for either food or trophies of bravery?  It certainly looks that way by the evidence.

The Global Flood is one worth studying.  Once you prove that, all the evidence we find worldwide falls into place and isn't so complicated to explain with the need of Evolution or Gap Theory.  The Bible proves itself utterly trustworthy in the matter, with more evidence to back it up that anything for Evolution.  Again, it all goes back to the Flood.  Get that right and everything fits.

Keeping asking questions! There are always answers to find.

Love & Shalom

 

My own view is altogether different. I believe in a ~ 6000 year timeframe since biological life, but I do believe loosely in the layering as per the geological scale.

ie we can see a vibrant and flourishing world which matches the 1000 year lifespans  in the carboniferous, and early Permian.

Then we see this mass die off, and oceans flooding into the continents at the end-Permian, matching the flood. (in geologic terms, a major transgressive event followed by a major regression)

Then in the early Triassic the landmasses are dry and hot, suitable for reptiles. They are dominated by huge reptiles (dinosaurs) which seem to each have an earlier equivalent in Permian amphibuous reptiles (the landmasses are populated by sea-crocodiles and sea-turtles and other extinct sea-reptiles). (this is where I get controversial because I believe God designed species to rapidly adapt outwardly, but NOT genetically). 

Mammals around the ark are struggling to expand south because they are few  in number and battle with the dryness and contending with mass populations of dinosaurs. They do expand into Siberia though, dinosaurs battling with the cold. You will find in Turkey signs of ancient mammal fossils, along with numerous extinct mammals. To evolutionists they battle why all these rare mammals congregated into Turkey when first appearing on earth with no fossil precursor, obviously it's the ark. 

Then the meteor hits, dinosaurs are nearly wiped out, Siberia frosts over freezing over the mammoths etc. Mammals are more adaptable to the cold and start to dominate, and mankind only occasionally comes across the last few dinosaurs. There is a strong meteor fear in ancient post-flood cultures expressed through their fascination with Pleides, the Swastika etc etc. 

Hope that was interesting reading,  that is the actual fossil record as geologists agree upon, but in biblical timeframes, co-inciding with biblical events. 

Edited April 3, 2019 by ARGOSY

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom Argosy,

Thanks for sharing you different point of view.  It was an interesting post.

7 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

that is the actual fossil record as geologists agree upon

The problem is that there is not undeniable proof.  Geologists base their age on assumptive principles and methods based upon assumption calculations.  True, the 6000 year old model has no undeniable proof as well but is more consistent with the overall evidence from around the world - if that makes sense.

Again, there is no undeniable conclusive proof from Geologists and Evolutionists.  Only theories based upon assumptive principles and methods based on assumptive calculations - see more about this here.  Therefore, it's best for us to reduce everything back to zero and assess the evidence for ourselves - without a middle man interpreting the data.  Because it's during the interpretation when the facts become coloured, twisted and repackaged as truth.  When you do this and just consider the facts alone, it's remarkable to see how much has been assumed.  This assumptions are the basis for the main view of today, and besides the academic pressure and funding behind the theory of Evolution, there is also the silencing of the opposing argument from Creationists - see more about this here.  However, when interpretations from Evolution become more complex than what logic dictates (Occam's Razor), we need to research the evidence for ourselves - uncoloured, unfiltered and untwisted.  It's the same problem with the Bible as well - when you have a middle man interpreting it for you, you will be kept from the pure unadulterated truth. 

Thank you for your post. It's a fascinating subject that we all should talk about in-depth because it really is a crucial point in world history, so thanks for sharing your point of view!

Love & Shalom

[Spock]

43 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

 

My own view is altogether different. I believe in a ~ 6000 year timeframe since biological life, but I do believe loosely in the layering as per the geological scale.

ie we can see a vibrant and flourishing world which matches the 1000 year lifespans  in the carboniferous, and early Permian.

Then we see this mass die off, and oceans flooding into the continents at the end-Permian, matching the flood. (in geologic terms, a major transgressive event followed by a major regression)

Then in the early Triassic the landmasses are dry and hot, suitable for reptiles. They are dominated by huge reptiles (dinosaurs) which seem to each have an earlier equivalent in Permian amphibuous reptiles (the landmasses are populated by sea-crocodiles and sea-turtles and other extinct sea-reptiles). (this is where I get controversial because I believe God designed species to rapidly adapt outwardly, but NOT genetically). 

Mammals around the ark are struggling to expand south because they are few  in number and battle with the dryness and contending with mass populations of dinosaurs. They do expand into Siberia though, dinosaurs battling with the cold. You will find in Turkey signs of ancient mammal fossils, along with numerous extinct mammals. To evolutionists they battle why all these rare mammals congregated into Turkey when first appearing on earth with no fossil precursor, obviously it's the ark. 

Then the meteor hits, dinosaurs are nearly wiped out, Siberia frosts over freezing over the mammoths etc. Mammals are more adaptable to the cold and start to dominate, and mankind only occasionally comes across the last few dinosaurs. There is a strong meteor fear in ancient post-flood cultures expressed through their fascination with Pleides, the Swastika etc etc. 

Hope that was interesting reading,  that is the actual fossil record as geologists agree upon, but in biblical timeframes, co-inciding with biblical events. 

Brother Argosy,

I’m confused, so I would like for you to be specific......What is your timeline for all this taking place?  Is it the timeline we’ve been taught, or different? 

Do you believe our earth to be 4.5 BYO?  You mentioned Triassic and I believe that was 250 MYA. 

Do you believe Noah’s flood was about 4400 years ago? 

Thanks

[ARGOSY]

23 minutes ago, Spock said:

Brother Argosy,

I’m confused, so I would like for you to be specific......What is your timeline for all this taking place?  Is it the timeline we’ve been taught, or different? 

Do you believe our earth to be 4.5 BYO?  You mentioned Triassic and I believe that was 250 MYA. 

Do you believe Noah’s flood was about 4400 years ago? 

Thanks

I compress all of this into less than 7000 years.  I believe radiometric dating is faulty. 

I believe the non-inhabited earth is older than that, when I read Genesis 1 it speaks to me of this dark watery and misty planet, the spirit of God starting the process of the mists lifting, bringing in light and visibility on the surface. You will note the world is dark,  the first day only starts that evening. (How long was it dark for... We do not know)

 

Yes I believe Noah's flood was around 4400 years ago

Edited April 3, 2019 by ARGOSY

[ARGOSY]

One of the strongest arguments for creationism is to accept the Cambrian Explosion, where evolutionist battle to explain how multiple species appeared abruptly in the fossil record, without any signs of where they evolved from. 

[Spock]

7 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

I compress all of this into less than 7000 years.  I believe radiometric dating is faulty. 

I believe the non-inhabited earth is older than that, when I read Genesis 1 it speaks to me of this dark watery and misty planet, the spirit of God starting the process of the mists lifting, bringing in light and visibility on the surface. You will note the world is dark,  the first day only starts that evening. (How long was it dark for... We do not know)

 

Yes I believe Noah's flood was around 4400 years ago

So, my interpretation of verse 1 is that In the beginning (UNKNOWN) God made the heavens and the earth.

it might be 4.5 BYA or it might be 20,000 years ago....I don’t know.

so, if I want to try to know, all I have left is to apply scientific methods, right?

and here is the rub.....where it all goes bonkers. Even Christian scientists don’t agree about these matters. 

So, it’s basically experts v experts just like in a court of law where both parties parade in their experts to say what they want them to say, with opposing theories. And a lay jury has to try to sort all of this out. 

Now you see why I have stayed out of this arena.  Too much uncertainty for my liking.