PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Larry H.

Sorry about that. I guess it wasn't quite clear who was saying what. I stand corrected.

Have a great Lord's Day!

[Larry H]

On 2/23/2019 at 7:47 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Larry H.

Sorry about that. I guess it wasn't quite clear who was saying what. I stand corrected.

Have a great Lord's Day!

Hey brother Shabbat not a problem, thanks for responding with that information. Giving me the opportunity to do same.

Note 1 ..... So the  estimation time span of the "at hand"  was  up until till the Children of God's rejection of Messiah's crucifixion.

 Alternatively 40 years later at the destruction of the temple in AD 70 Matthew 24

Short story

400 years prior to  the "the Messenger of the Covenant's" visitation to the land of Israel  Mal. 3:1  Malachi predicts an unexpected message regarding God's Divine intervention, a proclamation of doom  on Old Covenant Israel. Mal. 4:1.  

Following the 400 years of silence, John states 'Repent; for the kingdom of heaven is "at hand" ....Jesus said in like manner, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)  

"A prophet had again risen up in Israel, and 'the Lord had visited His people"

1. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)
2. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)
3. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

In the first century these warnings were predicted and fulfilled.

"Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. Luke 23:28

Your thoughts

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, Larry H said:

Hey brother Shabbat not a problem, thanks for responding with that information. Giving me the opportunity to do same.

Note 1 ..... So the  estimation time span of the "at hand"  was  up until till the Children of God's rejection of Messiah's crucifixion.

 Alternatively 40 years later at the destruction of the temple in AD 70 Matthew 24

Short story

400 years prior to  the "the Messenger of the Covenant's" visitation to the land of Israel  Mal. 3:1  Malachi predicts an unexpected message regarding God's Divine intervention, a proclamation of doom  on Old Covenant Israel. Mal. 4:1.  

Following the 400 years of silence, John states 'Repent; for the kingdom of heaven is "at hand" ....Jesus said in like manner, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matt. 4:17)  

"A prophet had again risen up in Israel, and 'the Lord had visited His people"

1. "Who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come?" (Matt. 3:7)
2. "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees." (Matt. 3:10)
3. "His winnowing fork is in His hand." (Matt. 3:12)

In the first century these warnings were predicted and fulfilled.

"Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. Luke 23:28

Your thoughts

Shalom, Larry H.

The thought first and foremost in my mind is that one understand that this desolation pronounced on the children of Israel, primarily the Jews, and particularly those of Jerusalem, is only TEMPORARY! When at last they can accept the possibility that Yeshua` was indeed God's Messiah to be their King, accepted out of sheer desperation, btw, THEN Yeshua` will return and become their Kingn after He first rescues them from their enemies, the nations that surround them.

[Larry H]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Larry H.

The thought first and foremost in my mind is that one understand that this desolation pronounced on the children of Israel, primarily the Jews, and particularly those of Jerusalem, is only TEMPORARY! When at last they can accept the possibility that Yeshua` was indeed God's Messiah to be their King, accepted out of sheer desperation, btw, THEN Yeshua` will return and become their Kingn after He first rescues them from their enemies, the nations that surround them.

Hi Shalom

I'm pulled in two direction being a Jew by birth speculate how many converts were there prior to the 18th century, compared to our day. Since I see you are familiar with the subject matter, when it says "all Israel will be saved." will there any limitations.

Luke 16:31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Just asking

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Larry H said:

Hi Shalom

I'm pulled in two direction being a Jew by birth speculate how many converts were there prior to the 18th century, compared to our day. Since I see you are familiar with the subject matter, when it says "all Israel will be saved." will there any limitations.

Luke 16:31 "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

Just asking

Shalom, Larry H.

Yes, this is a concern. However, I believe that the Jews will have a "second chance" in their resurrection at Yeshua`s coming. Let's turn to where Paul makes this statement that "all Israel shall be saved."

By the way, in the King's English of 1611, there was a difference between "shall" and "will."

"Shall" is just a reference to the future. If God "declares the end from the beginning," then there is a sense of destiny. That is, that some things shall happen as predicted in God's prophecies. God DETERMINES what shall happen.

"Will" has to do with CHOICE and DESIRE. When the Scriptures say that "God WILL do ...(something)," it means that God WANTS that something to be done and CHOOSES to do it. He WILLS it to happen!

In modern English, that distinction is blurred, and now we have certain "rules" of English as to how we choose which of these words to use.

Now, look at Romans 11:

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they (the Jews) stumbled that they should fall (i.e., permanently)? God forbid: but rather through their (temporary) fall, salvation (deliverance; rescue) is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the Jews) to jealousy. 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them be the riches of the world (Greek: kosmos = the "world-system"), and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness (their recovery)? 13 (For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh [the Jews], and might save some of them.) 15 For if the (temporary) casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead (i.e. the RESURRECTION)? 16 For if the firstfruit (Yeshua`) be holy, the lump (the physical family of Yeshua`) is also holy: and if the root (the "root of David," again Yeshua`) be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree (an oleaster tree), wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, "The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in." 20 Well (Okay, Sure); because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee! 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also,

***if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.***

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (i.e., an oleaster tree), and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree:

***how much more shall these (the Jews), which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?***

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel (good news about the King and His Kingdom), they are enemies for your sakes:
BUT 
as touching the election (God's choosing), they are beloved (loved ones) for the fathers' (the ancestors', particularly, the Patriarchs') sakes. 

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (that is, God doesn't renege on His gifts and calling). 30 For as ye (Gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these (Jews) also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So, in their resurrection (and they SHALL be resurrected as a nation), they shall have their second chance. Now, it's possible that they shall not STAY resurrected IF they choose to reject their King ... AGAIN! After all, it appears from Scripture that there shall be some "sons of Belial," as the KJV calls them, "bneey bliyya`al" in Hebrew meaning "sons of worthlessness" - "scoundrels" or "rascals!"

Now, to support this, I point you to Ezekiel 37, a familiar but often misunderstood passage:

Ezekiel 37:1-14 (KJV)

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

This is NOT "figurative speech!" This is LITERAL! Now, I turn you again to the words of Yeshua`:

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, 'We will not have this man to reign over us!' 15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

Look at the story OUTSIDE the story you most often hear in Sunday School and church, the parable shown in the highlighted portions above! How is it possible for verse 27 to happen if these men who had Yeshua` crucified on the cross have died and are buried? The answer is in that this happens AFTER "when he (Yeshua`) was returned, having received the kingdom!" They have been RESURRECTED only to face death again for still rejecting Him!

Can you see how this is a logical conclusion from these passages?

[simplejeff]

No.  There is no second chance in the resurrection.  Not for Jews, nor gentiles. 

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, simplejeff said:

No.  There is no second chance in the resurrection.  Not for Jews, nor gentiles. 

Shalom, simplejeff.

Why would you say that? Is this a bias simply from your theology? The Bible doesn't speak that way! Think about the implications of this passage:

1 Corinthians 7:12-16 (KJV)

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:

If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save (rescue) thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save (rescue) thy wife?

And, remember Yeshua`s words:

Mark 10:2-9 (KJV)

2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him,

"Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife?" tempting him. 

3 And he answered and said unto them,

"What did Moses command you?"

4 And they said,

"Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away."

5 And Jesus answered and said unto them,

"For the hardness (fierceness) of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

If God doesn't want any man to "put asunder" (divide) a marriage, would HE dissolve HIS choice in joining two together?! THINK ABOUT IT!

Just an addition: We believers need to understand the difference between "holy" and "righteous."

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Retrobyter
to add a thought

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, again, simplejeff.

If the two have become one flesh, and God raises our flesh to new life in the Resurrection, is God going to raise half a person?! Where's the "victory" in THAT situation?

Edited February 27, 2019 by Retrobyter

[Larry H]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, simplejeff.

If the two have become one flesh, and God raises our flesh to new life in the Resurrection, is God going to raise half a person?! Where's the "victory" in THAT situation?

Hi Retrobyter    This is a question from You Previous post    "All Israel will be save"     Thanks for taking the time to do so.

It reminds of  Daniel chapter 12:2  which seems to use the same phraseology of  Ezekiel  37  "spiritual Resurrection of Israel after the Babylonian captivity"  Dead man's bones come to life in a Spiritual National Resurrection of the whole  house of  Israel. Do you see any correlation between those books since the Old Testament doesn't seem to mention specifically a biological resurrection. Although I do believe in a afterlife for those in God's favor through the New Testament.

In other words is Daniel 12 speaking of a biological or spiritual resurrection, and has similarities to John 5:28.29

Kind Regards

Larry

[simplejeff]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, simplejeff.

If the two have become one flesh, and God raises our flesh to new life in the Resurrection, is God going to raise half a person?! Where's the "victory" in THAT situation?

Someone tricked you.

Yahweh's Word, Plan, Purpose and Accomplishment of Salvation for all those in Christ Jesus is Perfect without spot nor wrinkle.