PRETERISM THE NEW FRONTIER

[Larry H]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Larry H.

It would appear that my request has fallen upon deaf ears. I'll repeat:

 

Hi Retrobyter

Sorry about that Ret

SPIRITUALLY spir'-it-u-al-i (pneumatikos):

As in 1 Corinthians 2:14, "spiritually judged," i.e. by means of the spirit renewed and enlightened by the spirit of God; having the mind of the Spirit is to be spiritually-minded (compare the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American) Romans 8:6).

Allegorically used also (Revelation 11:8) to characterize, in a bad sense, the qualities of the spiritual (i.e. the spirit's) life: "which spiritually is called Sodom."

 

The word in Christian circle can take on different perspectives.  How I view the word spiritually should be in context with the verse and surrounding text. For example if one is spiritually dead, it suggest separation from God which Jesus repaired. Isa. 59:2 Rom. 5:1 In purpose within the things of God. "Spiritually discerned" Also morally or other wise. 

 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Larry H said:

Hi Retrobyter

Sorry about that Ret

SPIRITUALLY spir'-it-u-al-i (pneumatikos):

As in 1 Corinthians 2:14, "spiritually judged," i.e. by means of the spirit renewed and enlightened by the spirit of God; having the mind of the Spirit is to be spiritually-minded (compare the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American) Romans 8:6).

Allegorically used also (Revelation 11:8) to characterize, in a bad sense, the qualities of the spiritual (i.e. the spirit's) life: "which spiritually is called Sodom."

 

The word in Christian circle can take on different perspectives.  How I view the word spiritually should be in context with the verse and surrounding text. For example if one is spiritually dead, it suggest separation from God which Jesus repaired. Isa. 59:2 Rom. 5:1 In purpose within the things of God. "Spiritually discerned" Also morally or other wise. 

 

Shalom, Larry H.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I would like to start with a clarification: "Allegorically" is not in itself to be taken in "a bad sense." It's what "spiritually" actually means. An "allegory" is defined as...

allegory | ˈaləˌɡôrē | 
noun (plural allegories) 

• a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one: Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of the spiritual journey.
• a symbol.

Of course, "allegorical" is the adjective form, and "allegorically" is the adverb.

The actual error is seeing too much in the Scriptures as "allegories" instead of taking the Scriptures literally. It's the difference between knowing what is indeed to be taken as an "allegory" and when the "allegory" becomes "adding to the Scriptures" what shouldn't be there!

In my opinion (and those of several Bible scholars), only when the Scriptures SAY a portion of Scripture is to be taken "allegorically" should the passage indeed be treated as an allegory. To say that there is MORE that is "allegorical," is to hyperbolize, exaggerate, and invent details that aren't there! And, THAT is the REAL problem! Where does it stop? The whole of Scripture is CERTAINLY NOT to be taken "allegorically," regardless what Origen and subsequent teachers taught! This was an influence on Biblical study due in large part to Greek philosophy and the rabbinical schools of Judaism.

Gotta go for now; more later.

[Uriah]

21 hours ago, Larry H said:

Hi Uriah

Nero cannot be the anti-Christ, because there were many anti-Christ, and the Anti-Christ idiom is not mentioned in the book of Revelation.

I personally don't believe everything said in the articles presented,. but Nero is the best choice for the beast of Revelation in my estimation. 

Where was it said that it was Nero was thrown in the lake of fire, perhaps it can by cut and paste from a previous post. 

 

Revelation. Here are some consideration according to the preterist view.

The book was specially written to the Seven churches in first century Asia,  not to the universal church we see today. Rev. 1:4,11. It was penned to their state of affairs, not ours, if not how could they be blessed by the words therein. Rev.1:3

The time indicators are literally imminent occurrences in the first century. Rev. 1:1,3.  The first century Christian reading the time indicators as day was a day not thousands of years later. A thousand years may be in God's but not to those he wrote. It would be irrelevant to them  to read a letter that was really meant to a people thousands of years later.

The theme of the book is Revelation 1:7 "Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!" Young's Literal Translation

Your thoughts

Is there any record of ANYBODY who is such a magnate being taken alive and thrown into the lake of fire?

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

So, it seems ALL kindreds of the Earth should have seen Him. When? No record of world wide wailing upon seeing Him in the clouds. However this WILL one day take place as you may have seen at a recent web site visit. On that day All who are in the graves shall come forth and the living who belong to Him will be caught up to meet Him.

[Larry H]

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Is there any record of ANYBODY who is such a magnate being taken alive and thrown into the lake of fire?

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

So, it seems ALL kindreds of the Earth should have seen Him. When? No record of world wide wailing upon seeing Him in the clouds. However this WILL one day take place as you may have seen at a recent web site visit. On that day All who are in the graves shall come forth and the living who belong to Him will be caught up to meet Him.

Hello again Uriah

 "YES, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Matthew 26:64

Your thoughts

[Larry H]

23 hours ago, Uriah said:

Is there any record of ANYBODY who is such a magnate being taken alive and thrown into the lake of fire?

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

So, it seems ALL kindreds of the Earth should have seen Him. When? No record of world wide wailing upon seeing Him in the clouds. However this WILL one day take place as you may have seen at a recent web site visit. On that day All who are in the graves shall come forth and the living who belong to Him will be caught up to meet Him.

Hi Uriah

A follow up from my previous post with evidence of a first century appearing in a cloud. The cloud representing God's wrath on a nation in the Old Testament.

Isa. 19:1

 

Here is the Preterist, be it Partial or Full understanding of the Rev.1:7

According to Young's Literal Translation the Tribes of the Land. I.e. the 12 tribes of Israel were responsible for His piercing. Causing a weeping by the Apostate Nation therein by the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. Matthew 24:1-34

Revelation 1:7 "Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!" Young's Literal Translation YLT

Zechariah 12:10 Mourning for the Pierced One "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. NKJV

And Jesus on His way to be crucified said,   

"Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children". Luke 23:28

Revelation 1:7

[Behold, he cometh with clouds] This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion;perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.

[And all kindreds of the earth] Pasai hai phulai tees gees. All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state. Adam Clark

Your up

thought

[Uriah]

22 hours ago, Larry H said:

Hi Uriah

A follow up from my previous post with evidence of a first century appearing in a cloud. The cloud representing God's wrath on a nation in the Old Testament.

1 Isa. 19:1

 

Here is the Preterist, be it Partial or Full understanding of the Rev.1:7

According to Young's Literal Translation the Tribes of the Land. I.e. the 12 tribes of Israel were responsible for His piercing. Causing a weeping by the Apostate Nation therein by the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple. Matthew 24:1-34

Revelation 1:7 "Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!" Young's Literal Translation YLT

Zechariah 12:10 Mourning for the Pierced One "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. NKJV

And Jesus on His way to be crucified said,   

"Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children". Luke 23:28

Revelation 1:7

[Behold, he cometh with clouds] This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion;perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.

[And all kindreds of the earth] Pasai hai phulai tees gees. All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state. Adam Clark

Your up

thought

Hello Larry,

            Well I expected this reference to the YLT, because compared to the majority of translations (meaning YLT looks like the only one) to is rightfully translated the way i quoted it. Are you prepared to take the same wording and apply it to the other places where "earth" appears in Revelation? I doubt it. It id done according to context/usage. So let's look at that and you can decide. And, it begs the question whether you are your position restricts this appearing to Israel alone? Some of your response looks to merely be a collection of rehashed preterist dogma and a search for a common word in various verses.

Matt 24:30, 31- And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see  the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 21:25, 26, 27- And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Same cloud(s)? See the context?

Ok, - kindred: 

STRONGS NT 5443: φυλή

φυλή, φυλῆς, ἡ (from φύω), from Pindar and Herodotus down; 
1. a tribe; in the N. T. all the persons descended from one of the twelve sons of the patriarch Jacob (the Sept. for מַטֵּה and שֵׁבֶט; also for מִשְׁפָּחָה, see πατριά, 2): Hebrews 7:13f; with the addition of the genitives Ασηρ, Βενιαμίν, etc., Luke 2:36; Acts 13:21; Romans 11:1; Philippians 3:5; Revelation 5:5; Revelation 7:5-8; δώδεκα φυλάς τοῦ Ἰσραήλ, Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30; James 1:1; Revelation 21:12; (πᾶσα φυλή υἱῶν Ἰσραήλ, Revelation 7:4). 
2. a race, nation, people: Matthew 24:30; Rev. (Revelation 1:7); Revelation 5:9; 7:9; (Revelation 11:9); Revelation 13:7; 14:6.

Sorry to say, the preterist version is without is without the proper context making it mere sleight of hand.

[Larry H]

15 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello Larry,

            Well I expected this reference to the YLT, because compared to the majority of translations (meaning YLT looks like the only one) to is rightfully translated the way i quoted it. Are you prepared to take the same wording and apply it to the other places where "earth" appears in Revelation? I doubt it. It id done according to context/usage. So let's look at that and you can decide. And, it begs the question whether you are your position restricts this appearing to Israel alone? Some of your response looks to merely be a collection of rehashed preterist dogma and a search for a common word in various verses.

Matt 24:30, 31- And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see  the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 21:25, 26, 27- And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Same cloud(s)? See the context?

Ok, - kindred: 

STRONGS NT 5443: φυλή

φυλή, φυλῆς, ἡ (from φύω), from Pindar and Herodotus down; 
1. a tribe; in the N. T. all the persons descended from one of the twelve sons of the patriarch Jacob (the Sept. for מַטֵּה and שֵׁבֶט; also for מִשְׁפָּחָה, see πατριά, 2): Hebrews 7:13f; with the addition of the genitives Ασηρ, Βενιαμίν, etc., Luke 2:36; Acts 13:21; Romans 11:1; Philippians 3:5; Revelation 5:5; Revelation 7:5-8; δώδεκα φυλάς τοῦ Ἰσραήλ, Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30; James 1:1; Revelation 21:12; (πᾶσα φυλή υἱῶν Ἰσραήλ, Revelation 7:4). 
2. a race, nation, people: Matthew 24:30; Rev. (Revelation 1:7); Revelation 5:9; 7:9; (Revelation 11:9); Revelation 13:7; 14:6.

Sorry to say, the preterist version is without is without the proper context making it mere sleight of hand.

Hi Uriah good to hear from you again,  Thought you jumped ship when I referenced Matthew 26:64 with no response. Just kidding it was likely missed.  All capitulations are mine. So here it is again.

Matthew 26:64 "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."  

How far into the future will, or did, the High Priest Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin  witness it. 

 

Got some more homework Uriah for you to do Matthew 24:29-30

Considering those verses some people have to see it to believe it as a replacement for  just taking Jesus at His word.  Note what He said just four verses down.

I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, THIS GENERATION will certainly not pass away UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED.

So apparently those phenomenon's in Matthew 24: 29,30 should not be taken literally but as representations taken from Old Testament Jesus took advantage of to show the outcome of the destruction of Jerusalem and it temple. 

EXAMPLE

Ezekiel 32:7,8 I believe "relating to the fall of Pharaoh""

When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you; I will bring darkness over your land, declares the Sovereign LORD.

Ezekiel 32:7  

[I will cover the heaven] Destroy the empire.

[I will cover the heaven] Destroy the empire.

[Make the stars thereof dark] Overwhelm all the dependent states.

[I will cover the sun] The king himself.

[And the moon shall not give her light.] The queen may be meant, or some state less than the kingdom.

Adam Clarke's 

You up 

[Uriah]

Hi Larry, 

      I'm pretty sure I wrote about those who had pierced Him. (maybe other than this site) So First, was it ONLY those fro "the land" that saw Him "The land", meaning Israel I take it from your previous assertions. Then there the "kindreds"/tribes-(plural) Did the other tribes NOT in the "land" see him in clouds too? And was it non-literal, ie. a dream perhaps? 

Now those who pierced Him WILL indeed see Him, as stated, on the Day when "all who are in the graves will hear the voice of the Son of Man, and shall come forth." Unless you believe that THIS already happened too. Because, "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(Dan. 12:2)It will be on that Day.

So, back to the question in the last post I wrote. Matt 24, Luke 21 "coming in a cloud(s) -a different coming than Rev. 1:7? More than one coming"?

[Larry H]

Hi Uriah Sorry for the wait.

Quote

So, back to the question in the last post I wrote. Matt 24, Luke 21 "coming in a cloud(s) -a different coming than Rev. 1:7? More than one coming"?

Excellent question, there are a couple of deviation  between the two verses. The word coming/parousia differs in the Greek Strong's,  and in like manner Young's Literal Translation in Matthew 24:30 uses earth instead of land that is used in Rev. 1:7.

And accordingly, unless there is more and I am sure there will be with anticipation, there seems to be two comings of Christ. One in the first century by Divine intervention on a apostate Nation, the other in our future i.e. A Partial Preterist view....Post Trib theology 

Have you considered Zec. 12:10

You're up, if you're up to it. ?

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, Larry H said:

Hi Uriah Sorry for the wait.

Excellent question, there are a couple of deviation  between the two verses. The word coming/parousia differs in the Greek Strong's,  and in like manner Young's Literal Translation in Matthew 24:30 uses earth instead of land that is used in Rev. 1:7.

And accordingly, unless there is more and I am sure there will be with anticipation, there seems to be two comings of Christ. One in the first century by Divine intervention on a apostate Nation, the other in our future i.e. A Partial Preterist view....Post Trib theology 

Have you considered Zec. 12:10

You're up, if you're up to it. ?

Hello Larry,

          Regardless of a single word, the scenario presented is one of cataclysmic proportions world wide. Barth references are talking about the same thing.. Same coming in the clouds as  Rev. 1:7.

 

Two more comings of Christ is the pre-trib error, not a post-trib position.  Heb. 9:28-So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. There is no third time.

Zec. 12:10 is not disconnected from v.9,9, or 7.  

The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

THEN, in v.10 they see Him whom the have pierced. THEN they will bitterly mourn. These things have not happened yet.