Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 As long as you are expecting Israel to be attacked,  (you might be deceived into changing your mind when they say Peace and safety for Israel) you will have the opportunity to guard yourself against that day.   Trust the scriptures.   The church will be here when that day arrives.   I know that you probably won't believe me,  but unless you know not to be out and about on this great Passover night that's coming,  you will probably perish. 

Blessings

The PuP 

It is not what I expect, it is what the bible tells us! Did you read what happens at the 6th vial? There can be no doubt Israel will be attacked.  Evil spirits go out to cause the nations of the world to attack Israel. And Jerusalem will once again be surrounded. But we know the end of the story! Jesus comes just in the nick of time. 
 

I don't know why you expect to be here at that time. I don't. I know Paul's rapture timing is before the 6th seal. I know that will be before the 7th seal and so before the Book is opened to reveal the 7 trumpet judgments. Therefore OF COURSE it will be before the vials are poured out.  I wonder sometimes if others are reading the same book of Revelation that I read.  Oh, just so you know, the "peace and safety" is what people will be saying just before the pretrib rapture. By the time of the 6th vial poured out no one on the planet will be saying "peace and safety!" By this time the first five vials will have "shortened" those days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of. The armies of the Beast will be sitting in darkness, gnawing their tongues in terrible pain. Finding someone else to worship their image will be far from their minds.  The 70th week will be almost over. No, my friend, the church will not be here. That theory is a myth.  You are not understanding either the scriptures or our Heavenly Father. 

Oh! Passover? Am I missing something? Please do fill me in. 

Edited February 16, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

15 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

You are making the common mistake.  Confusing tribulations in general with the specific end time tribulation period.  And I would like to know how many governors and kings those in the final tribulation period will be standing in front of as a testimony.  Seems that the general fate they receive is beheading.   I believe that reference was more in line with the events surrounding events in Paul's life.  True enough, one will not have to worry about what to say.  Kind of hard to talk with you head severed from your body.  

Ha ha! Well said. They will certainly NOT be talking....not in their flesh bodies.

[OakWood]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

A free pass from all the suffering.  MYTH!

it's the Post-Trib that's the scary one, and Biblically it's also the correct one.  MYTH! As posttribbers like to say, "there is not one single verse that proves a post-trib rapture!  Post-tribbers can never get to the Marriage and Supper - for it will be held in heaven, before Jesus descends. Post-trib theory ROBS the sheep and goat judgement of the sheep.  Finally, when all the end times scriptures are taken together (as they should be) post trib seems the LEAST likely. 

The false prophet enters the temple, then Christians are persecuted for 3 and a half-years   MYTH! Rev. 12 tells us only a remnant of the church is left: that would be those left behind because they were not qualified.  Mostly it will be the Jews that are persecuted. After all, Daniel tells us the 70th week is for HIS people.  Then, John shows us the raptured church IN HEAVEN in Rev. 7, before he even begins the 70th week - so CLEARLY pretrib.  Paul teaches us that the rapture comes a moment before the wrath of God begins - so CLEARLY pretrib. Your theory fails.

This fits in perfectly with what the Bible says.  MYTH! It may fit with how YOU read the bible. It certainly does not fit what the bible really says. For example, the church already IN HEAVEN in Rev. 7.

The pre-Trib has to add all sorts of stuff to scripture that simply isn't there  MYTH!  The prewrath and posttrib must rearrange scripture to fit Pretrib fits scripture AS WRITTEN.  Paul's rapture (as written in 1 Thes. 5) fits perfectly between the 5th and 6th seals, and just before the 6th seal that begins God's wrath. Prewrath is probably the very WORST at rearranging Rev. to fit their theory.

'Jesus comes back, then he leaves, then he comes back again'  How amazing! You got this part RIGHT! Hallelujah! 

The second coming will be ONLY to the clouds.  " we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"  Post-tribbers  have to ADD to this that together they all descend to earth. That part is MYTH. Jesus went to build homes for us and will come and get us and take us to those homes He has prepared. It is the classical Jewish wedding. 

His third coming is shown in Rev. 19, where He descends to the battle of Armageddon.  So what you wrote is TRUTH, although you won't believe it.  Here is the ABSOLUTE truth:  "If you simply read scripture word for word without adding your own pre-conceptions (and wishful thinking) to it, you'll find the truth." In His 1 Thes. coming He comes ONLY to the air. In John 14, He takes us to the homes He has prepared.  In Rev. 19 He comes WITH the armies of heaven to fight. Clearly the bible teaches TWO MORE comings, for TWO DIFFERENT purposes.  

"Always read scripture without pre-conceived ideas."  Brilliant idea! One coming He comes to the clouds. ONLY those in Christ and caught up will see Him. In His Rev. 19 coming "every Eye will see Him." No preconceptions: just read the word AS WRITTEN. The marriage and supper will take place in heaven JUST AS WRITTEN and will be BEFORE Jesus descends to fight. No preconceptions: just taking the word AS WRITTEN - making a post-trib rapture impossible.  The days of great tribulation are CLEARLY written to begin AFTER the warning God gives not to take the mark. And as Rev. 15 shows us, the beheaded finally beginning to show up in heaven - making prewrath the silliest theory ever. They insist the days of GT are in the seals!

Read Rev. 4 & 5 with no preconceived ideas! John was looking at a vision of the past - looking back in time to a throne room WITHOUT Jesus, because He was still on earth. "No man was found" because John was seeing a time before Christ rose from the dead (in the vision).  Then John got to hear that Jesus was found worthy, and they saw Him sudden appear in the throne room, having just ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. No preconceptions: just taking the scriptures for gospel truth AS WRITTEN. John is showing us all that the first seal is FIRST CENTURY.  You sure have some good ideas! 

is almost unheard of among Christians outside of North America.   TOTAL MYTH! I heard someone say this, so I started contacting believers in different nations in AFrica. I guess I must have contacted 40 or 50 church people there. I used Interpals web site.  MOST.... - ..I say again: MOST of them were pretrib! I asked them why and they said "it is scripture." You see, we in America don't have a corner on bible study! African's study their bibles too.

Then I spent 6 months in China, and for 5 of those months, taught in an underground church. Lo and behold: THEY TOO believe in a pretrib rapture. And they too study their bible!  Your theory is MYTH. 

The truth sometimes is too painful to deal with.  Postribbers and prewrathers find this true also!  The truth of the scriptures is AGAINST THEM!

Pre-Trib is simply un-Biblical  MYTH! Many times the truth of pretrib has been written on Worthy forums, yet the post-Tribbers and prewrathers simply won't let go! They are blinded by their own preconceived glasses they wear when the read the scriptures.  They explain away the great crowd too large to number, shown in heaven before John has even started the 70th week.  They INSIST Revelation must needs be rearranged. They refuse to believe John when He tells us where God's wrath begins. They INSIST that the cosmic signs in the sun and moon will only come ONCE: before the Day of the Lord and AFTER the days of GT. They ignore the differences in these signs as written at the 6th seal and in Matthew 24. They IGNORE the truth that Joel shows us these signs will appear TWICE more: first as a sign for the start of the DAY - as shown in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal - where the moon will appear as blood red, then again as a sign of Christ's coming (Rev. 19) after the trib as shown in Matthew 24 and in Joel 3 - where both the sun and moon are darkened: invisible! (This sign speaks of total darkness). 

Pre trib is NO "needle in a haystack."  It is clearly shown for those that can read with no preconceptions. There IS a DIFFERENCE between the signs of the DAY and the sign of Jesus coming. Most people ignore these differences and imagine these signs are all speaking of ONE event, when in reality there are TWO events over 7 years apart. Just one verse, correctly understood proves pretrib: the great crowd in heaven, BEFORE John as started the 70th week!

they are motivated by a false premise  This certainly describes post-tribbers and prewrathers!

why try to complicate the simple truth of God's teachings?  My sentiments exactly!  One simple truth is, John saw the raptured church in heaven before the 70th week begins. (Just so the readers know, the 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week with the 30 minutes of silence, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.)

The marriage and supper will take place IN HEAVEN just as the word shows it.

The days of GT cannot and will not start until after the Midpoint of the week (the 7th trumpet) just as Jesus Himself said. The  beheaded saints will not begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15, JUST AS WRITTEN - proving without any shadow of doubt that the last half of "the trib" will be AFTER chapter 11. 

John wrote Revelation from visions God Himself showed him. His chronology is GOD GIVEN. Yet so many are forced to rearrange John's God Given chronology just to fit a false theory. Worse yet, they have NO PROBLEM being forced to rearrange John's book! Why try to complicate it? Just take John at his word, and believe Revelation AS WRITTEN.

It is very clear the writer of this post is very biased AGAINST pretrib - which is sad, because pretrib is TRUTH.

I'm not against pre-Trib. As I already said... I'd never heard of either. Pre-Trib sounds great to me. I wish it was true, but it isn't. But typically you accuse me of being biased. You obviously didn't read what I had written, or like most pre-Tribbers completely ignored it.

And your explanation is exactly what I claimed; over-complicated. Adding stuff that isn't really there, and making assumptions. For example, the so-called raptured church that John is supposed to have seen, well all I can say is.: We're not the only Christians, you know...... what about the ones that have lived for the last two thousand years or so? But in typical pre-Trib mindset, "it's all about you".

 

Despite 2000 years of Christian martyrdom, you're the special privileged generation, the only ones to escape without any testing. The apostle Peter suffered on the cross, Tyndale was burned at the stake for his faith. Thousands of saints were tortured and murdered under the inquisition, Christians were thrown to the lions by Nero, but U.S. Christians living in nice houses with nice cars whose worst ever trial in life was worrying about being late for work; are so privileged that God will give them unique treatment that nobody has ever had before. No beheadings for them, or even struggling to buy or sell; not  for this snowflake generation.

Jesus says that he who endures to the end, the same shall be saved. But what exactly is there to endure when you're up in the sky, sipping nectar cocktails and having a grandstand view of the entire show?

Nobody ever comes to the conclusion that there is a pre-Trib rapture unless they are pre-programmed to believe it. If you've never heard of it, you'll never assume it. Whereas Post-Trib and to some extent Mid-Trib are the obvious conclusions of reading the text. Yet despite my explanation you proved my point. Pre-Tribbers are unwilling to let go. Thank you for proving me right.

Edited February 17, 2019 by OakWood

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, OakWood said:

I'm not against pre-Trib. As I already said... I'd never heard of either. Pre-Trib sounds great to me. I wish it was true, but it isn't. But typically you accuse me of being biased. You obviously didn't read what I had written, or like most pre-Tribbers completely ignored it.

And your explanation is exactly what I claimed; over-complicated. Adding stuff that isn't really there, and making assumptions. For example, the so-called raptured church that John is supposed to have seen, well all I can say is.: We're not the only Christians, you know...... what about the ones that have lived for the last two thousand years or so? But in typical pre-Trib mindset, "it's all about you".

 

Despite 2000 years of Christian martyrdom, you're the special privileged generation, the only ones to escape without any testing. The apostle Peter suffered on the cross, Tyndale was burned at the stake for his faith. Thousands of saints were tortured and murdered under the inquisition, Christians were thrown to the lions by Nero, but U.S. Christians living in nice houses with nice cars whose worst ever trial in life was worrying about being late for work; are so privileged that God will give them unique treatment that nobody has ever had before. No beheadings for them, or even struggling to buy or sell; not  for this snowflake generation.

Jesus says that he who endures to the end, the same shall be saved. But what exactly is there to endure when you're up in the sky, sipping nectar cocktails and having a grandstand view of the entire show?

Nobody ever comes to the conclusion that there is a pre-Trib rapture unless they are pre-programmed to believe it. If you've never heard of it, you'll never assume it. Whereas Post-Trib and to some extent Mid-Trib are the obvious conclusions of reading the text. Yet despite my explanation you proved my point. Pre-Tribbers are unwilling to let go. Thank you for proving me right.

Wrong again! It is not about any single believer. It is about the TIME. We are at the end of this age and HARVEST is on God's mind. The rapture of the church is a one time thing. It was planned before the foundation of the earth.  Make no mistake, one day soon the trumpet will sound and Jesus will descend to the air, and the Bride of Christ will be caught up. 

I fully expect, if a 5th grader who has never read it before would read John 14, they would believe it just as pretrib believes it. One day, if I get the chance, I will try this test.  Yes, I did read it. But it does not matter HOW you came to believe as you do, you are simply mistaken. I cannot put it any nicer. God is pretrib and will certainly come pretrib to get His saints. Why? Because the "trib" is His wrath and we are not going to be here for His wrath. God has an escape plan!

ANY end time scenario is complicated because there are MANY scriptures that all must agree. And it was Paul that wrote of the rapture and according to Peter, Paul is hard to understand! 2 Thes. 2 is a great example.  However, 1 thes. 4 is fairly simple. 

Adding stuff that isn't really there  Please, be specific.   If I add, I want to KNOW I am adding.  I hope you understand, sometimes adding is required. Case in point: Paul's "last trump." What does Paul mean? Is it the last trump of a series? If so WHAT series? Is it the last trump of the church age? Every kind of tribber will give a different answer.  You would probably give a different answer than I would.  One thing I am convinced of: it is NOT the last trumpet in Revelation - yet many imagine it is. 

making assumptions  Again, some verses FORCE the reader to make assumptions. But a wise student of the bible will base these assumptions on other end time verses. Case in point: Posttribbers ASSUME the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. Pretribbers will not assume that.  Another case in point: prewrathers ASSUME that the cosmic signs given in Matthew 24 are the very same signs as written at the 6th seal. They are mistaken.  By the way, I assume YOU ALSO make these same assumptions. 

Despite 2000 years of Christian martyrdom, you're the special privileged generation, the only ones to escape without any testing  Wrong again! EVERY believer gets tested. The truth is, God has not poured out His wrath on earth throughout the entire church age But soon HE WILL - but He has made a way of escape for this terminal generation.  He never promised a rapture for every calamity. He DID promise one rapture. I believe Him.  By the way, it is NO DIFFERENT NOW! There are beheadings going on. There are murders and Christians have been disappearing from Muslim nations now for years. So you are simply mistaken again.

U.S. Christians living in nice houses with nice cars whose worst ever trial in life was worrying about being late for work; are so privileged that God will give them unique treatment that nobody has ever had before  What is the matter with your thinking? There is probably more believers in Africa now than in the US. Soon their will be more in China - if the Lord tarries. The only difference is, we have been blessed more than many other believers. I will certainly not complain to God that He has blessed us! 

Jesus says that he who endures to the end, the same shall be saved  Yes, He surely did say this - but to WHOM is it pointed? It is to the Jew that is blinded for now.  The church will not have to "endure to the end" for we will be raptured. Of course, if you just WANT  to endure, I am sure God will leave you behind.  He has a way of giving us the desires of our heart! You amaze me!

Nobody ever comes to the conclusion that there is a pre-Trib rapture unless they are pre-programmed to believe it. this is a theory that has been proven wrong over and over. It is scriptural. THAT is why many believe it. Don't even imagine you have a corner on bible understanding. Someone said it was only Americans that believe a pretrib rapture. So I found 50 or so people in Africa - different nations - and asked them if they believed in a pretrib rapture. Many of them (Most of them) DID. Their reason: "It is scriptural." 

It seems then, that even from your background, you read with preconceived glasses. What else can it be if others read the same text and come to a different conclusion?

If you've never heard of it, you'll never assume it  Again, just your theory. Millions believe it because they study their bible. 

Post-Trib and to some extent Mid-Trib are the obvious conclusions of reading the text.   Not when I read it!  Not when millions of others read it. I really wonder what text you would put first here. Probably Matthew 24. 

I am CERTAINLY unwilling to let go of the truth and swallow a lie!   

One thing I have come to a conclusion about: pretribbers  - those that study to show themselves approved - are very good at their study. 

Why do I say that? A beginning Christian - one that just God born again yesterday, could hear two people discussing the rapture timing, and he might say, "that's so easy: look at Matthew 24: anyone can see the gathering comes after the days of tribulation." So another posttribber is born!  It may be 30 years later that he or she discovers that the gathering in Matthew 24 gathers from heaven!

[1to3]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

A free pass from all the suffering.  MYTH!

it's the Post-Trib that's the scary one, and Biblically it's also the correct one.  MYTH! As posttribbers like to say, "there is not one single verse that proves a post-trib rapture!  Post-tribbers can never get to the Marriage and Supper - for it will be held in heaven, before Jesus descends. Post-trib theory ROBS the sheep and goat judgement of the sheep.  Finally, when all the end times scriptures are taken together (as they should be) post trib seems the LEAST likely. 

The false prophet enters the temple, then Christians are persecuted for 3 and a half-years   MYTH! Rev. 12 tells us only a remnant of the church is left: that would be those left behind because they were not qualified.  Mostly it will be the Jews that are persecuted. After all, Daniel tells us the 70th week is for HIS people.  Then, John shows us the raptured church IN HEAVEN in Rev. 7, before he even begins the 70th week - so CLEARLY pretrib.  Paul teaches us that the rapture comes a moment before the wrath of God begins - so CLEARLY pretrib. Your theory fails.

This fits in perfectly with what the Bible says.  MYTH! It may fit with how YOU read the bible. It certainly does not fit what the bible really says. For example, the church already IN HEAVEN in Rev. 7.

The pre-Trib has to add all sorts of stuff to scripture that simply isn't there  MYTH!  The prewrath and posttrib must rearrange scripture to fit Pretrib fits scripture AS WRITTEN.  Paul's rapture (as written in 1 Thes. 5) fits perfectly between the 5th and 6th seals, and just before the 6th seal that begins God's wrath. Prewrath is probably the very WORST at rearranging Rev. to fit their theory.

'Jesus comes back, then he leaves, then he comes back again'  How amazing! You got this part RIGHT! Hallelujah! 

The second coming will be ONLY to the clouds.  " we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air"  Post-tribbers  have to ADD to this that together they all descend to earth. That part is MYTH. Jesus went to build homes for us and will come and get us and take us to those homes He has prepared. It is the classical Jewish wedding. 

His third coming is shown in Rev. 19, where He descends to the battle of Armageddon.  So what you wrote is TRUTH, although you won't believe it.  Here is the ABSOLUTE truth:  "If you simply read scripture word for word without adding your own pre-conceptions (and wishful thinking) to it, you'll find the truth." In His 1 Thes. coming He comes ONLY to the air. In John 14, He takes us to the homes He has prepared.  In Rev. 19 He comes WITH the armies of heaven to fight. Clearly the bible teaches TWO MORE comings, for TWO DIFFERENT purposes.  

"Always read scripture without pre-conceived ideas."  Brilliant idea! One coming He comes to the clouds. ONLY those in Christ and caught up will see Him. In His Rev. 19 coming "every Eye will see Him." No preconceptions: just read the word AS WRITTEN. The marriage and supper will take place in heaven JUST AS WRITTEN and will be BEFORE Jesus descends to fight. No preconceptions: just taking the word AS WRITTEN - making a post-trib rapture impossible.  The days of great tribulation are CLEARLY written to begin AFTER the warning God gives not to take the mark. And as Rev. 15 shows us, the beheaded finally beginning to show up in heaven - making prewrath the silliest theory ever. They insist the days of GT are in the seals!

Read Rev. 4 & 5 with no preconceived ideas! John was looking at a vision of the past - looking back in time to a throne room WITHOUT Jesus, because He was still on earth. "No man was found" because John was seeing a time before Christ rose from the dead (in the vision).  Then John got to hear that Jesus was found worthy, and they saw Him sudden appear in the throne room, having just ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. No preconceptions: just taking the scriptures for gospel truth AS WRITTEN. John is showing us all that the first seal is FIRST CENTURY.  You sure have some good ideas! 

is almost unheard of among Christians outside of North America.   TOTAL MYTH! I heard someone say this, so I started contacting believers in different nations in AFrica. I guess I must have contacted 40 or 50 church people there. I used Interpals web site.  MOST.... - ..I say again: MOST of them were pretrib! I asked them why and they said "it is scripture." You see, we in America don't have a corner on bible study! African's study their bibles too.

Then I spent 6 months in China, and for 5 of those months, taught in an underground church. Lo and behold: THEY TOO believe in a pretrib rapture. And they too study their bible!  Your theory is MYTH. 

The truth sometimes is too painful to deal with.  Postribbers and prewrathers find this true also!  The truth of the scriptures is AGAINST THEM!

Pre-Trib is simply un-Biblical  MYTH! Many times the truth of pretrib has been written on Worthy forums, yet the post-Tribbers and prewrathers simply won't let go! They are blinded by their own preconceived glasses they wear when the read the scriptures.  They explain away the great crowd too large to number, shown in heaven before John has even started the 70th week.  They INSIST Revelation must needs be rearranged. They refuse to believe John when He tells us where God's wrath begins. They INSIST that the cosmic signs in the sun and moon will only come ONCE: before the Day of the Lord and AFTER the days of GT. They ignore the differences in these signs as written at the 6th seal and in Matthew 24. They IGNORE the truth that Joel shows us these signs will appear TWICE more: first as a sign for the start of the DAY - as shown in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal - where the moon will appear as blood red, then again as a sign of Christ's coming (Rev. 19) after the trib as shown in Matthew 24 and in Joel 3 - where both the sun and moon are darkened: invisible! (This sign speaks of total darkness). 

Pre trib is NO "needle in a haystack."  It is clearly shown for those that can read with no preconceptions. There IS a DIFFERENCE between the signs of the DAY and the sign of Jesus coming. Most people ignore these differences and imagine these signs are all speaking of ONE event, when in reality there are TWO events over 7 years apart. Just one verse, correctly understood proves pretrib: the great crowd in heaven, BEFORE John as started the 70th week!

they are motivated by a false premise  This certainly describes post-tribbers and prewrathers!

why try to complicate the simple truth of God's teachings?  My sentiments exactly!  One simple truth is, John saw the raptured church in heaven before the 70th week begins. (Just so the readers know, the 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week with the 30 minutes of silence, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.)

The marriage and supper will take place IN HEAVEN just as the word shows it.

The days of GT cannot and will not start until after the Midpoint of the week (the 7th trumpet) just as Jesus Himself said. The  beheaded saints will not begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15, JUST AS WRITTEN - proving without any shadow of doubt that the last half of "the trib" will be AFTER chapter 11. 

John wrote Revelation from visions God Himself showed him. His chronology is GOD GIVEN. Yet so many are forced to rearrange John's God Given chronology just to fit a false theory. Worse yet, they have NO PROBLEM being forced to rearrange John's book! Why try to complicate it? Just take John at his word, and believe Revelation AS WRITTEN.

It is very clear the writer of this post is very biased AGAINST pretrib - which is sad, because pretrib is TRUTH. 

Thanks iamlamad fro your explanation, I really appreciated reading it.   To me it makes sense and I can see how it follows.

I always believed in the pre trib, because that was how it was taught to us in church, but since coming to these worthy boards with so many debates on the subject I became confused.

From your explanation using scripture, what you say makes the most sense to me.

However whether it is pre trib or post trib, one thing we as Christians need to be and that is prepared. We all need to have enough oil in our lamps. we all need to be on the right path in Christ Jesus as no one knows when they will be called back to God. We need to prepare our salvation with fear and trembling everyday review our day and confess what needs to be confessed in Christ Jesus.

I have contemplated  both ways of being left to face the tribulation, pre trib, if I am left behind, because I was not as christian as I thought I was.  or post trib, just having to face whatever happens with my faith and bite the bullet in Christ Jesus no matter what.  Lets say if pre trib is what will happen, all the lukewarm Christians who heard the good news but were left behind, will still have a second chance to claim their salvation in Christ by standing true to God and preaching the good news to their end, whatever that be.  Either way if we are Christians, true loyal Christians, we will do whatever to stand for Christ.

 

Matthew 25

The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins

25 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. ² Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. ³ Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, ⁴ but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. ⁵ But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

⁶ “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom ^[a]is coming; go out to meet him!’ ⁷ Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. ⁸ And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ ⁹ But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ ¹⁰ And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

¹¹ “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ ¹² But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

¹³ “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour ^[b]in which the Son of Man is coming.

 

Philippians 2:12-13

Light Bearers

¹² Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; ¹³ for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Edited February 17, 2019 by 1to3

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, both of you, iamlamad and Da Puppers.

When are you going to understand that "salvation" means "DELIVERANCE" and "RESCUE?" Guess who Yeshua` is coming back to deliver or to rescue? That's what the war for the Land of Israel that ENDS with Har-Megiddown (Greek: Armageddon) is all about!

So..please tell us: what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Is this a non-sequitur? 

[iamlamad]

Just now, 1to3 said:

Thanks iamlamad fro your explanation, I really appreciated reading it.   To me it makes sense and I can see how it follows.

I always believed in the pre trib, because that was how it was taught to us in church, but since coming to these worthy boards with do many debates on the subject I became confused.

From your explanation using scripture, what you say makes the most sense to me.

However weather it is pre trib or post trib, one thing we as Christians need to be and that is prepared. We all need to have enough oil in our lamps. we all need to be on the right path in Christ Jesus as no one knows when they will be called back to God. We need to prepare our salvation with fear and trembling everyday review our day and confess what needs to be confessed in Christ Jesus.

I have contemplated  both ways of being left to face the tribulation, pre trib, if I am left behind, because I was not as christina as I thought I was.  or post trib, just having to face whatever happens with my faith and bite the bullet in Christ Jesus no matter what.  Lets say if pre trib is what will happen, all the lukewarm Christians who heard the good news but were left behind, will still have a second chance to claim their salvation in Christ by standing true to God and preaching the good news to their end, whatever that be.  Either way if we are Christians, true loyal Christians, we will do whatever to stand for Christ.

 

Matthew 25

The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins

25 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. ² Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. ³ Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, ⁴ but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. ⁵ But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

⁶ “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom ^[a]is coming; go out to meet him!’ ⁷ Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. ⁸ And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ ⁹ But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ ¹⁰ And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

¹¹ “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ ¹² But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

¹³ “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour ^[b]in which the Son of Man is coming.

 

Philippians 2:12-13

Light Bearers

¹² Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; ¹³ for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

You really only need one verse to convince you: Paul wrote, "therefore comfort one another...." Would one be able to comfort another by reminding them they would probably end up beheaded?  On the other hand, since the rapture IS pretrib, one could easily comfort another by saying, "not to worry! God has made an escape plan! We are going to be caught up while those left behind face the sudden destruction." Now THAT is comforting!

By the way, thanks.

Edited February 17, 2019 by iamlamad

[1to3]

 

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, both of you, iamlamad and Da Puppers.

When are you going to understand that "salvation" means "DELIVERANCE" and "RESCUE?" Guess who Yeshua` is coming back to deliver or to rescue? That's what the war for the Land of Israel that ENDS with Har-Megiddown (Greek: Armageddon) is all about! 

 

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

So..please tell us: what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Is this a non-sequitur? 

 

From my understanding it means, that it will be pre trip so that deliverance comes to the Jews and all those finding Christ in the end?

[iamlamad]

On 2/15/2019 at 8:55 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, iamlamad.

Interesting take, but actually I AM a body that breathes and can blow like a wind (spirit), and that makes me an air-breathing creature (a soul). So, your analogy is lost.

Second, WE ARE BODIES and when we are resurrected WE WILL BE RESURRECTED BODIES, GLOWING BODIES THAT SHINE LIKE THE SUN IN THE PRESENCE OF OUR FATHER, BLASTING ("SPIRITUAL") BODIES THAT NO LONGER JUST BREATHE BUT BLAST LIKE THE WIND!

This is an important distinction. What? Do you think that "Christians" are the only ones who will be so resurrected?! Don't you know your Savior, yet?!

Have you heard of David, Solomon, and the Prophets? THEY'LL BE BACK!!!

Ezekiel 34:23-24 (KJV)

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

This is NOT figurative speech! It is QUITE LITERAL!

Even with our resurrection bodies, we will STILL be spirit beings possessing a soul. Perhaps you should study the New Testament on soul!  It is used at least two ways in scripture. OF COURSE all will be resurrected one day....but believers in Christ will be first. 

Since you mention the Old Testament saints, please, show us in Revelation when THEIR resurrection is.

[iamlamad]

Just now, 1to3 said:

 

Shalom, both of you, iamlamad and Da Puppers.

When are you going to understand that "salvation" means "DELIVERANCE" and "RESCUE?" Guess who Yeshua` is coming back to deliver or to rescue? That's what the war for the Land of Israel that ENDS with Har-Megiddown (Greek: Armageddon) is all about! 

 

 

From my understanding it means, that it will be pre trip so that deliverance comes to the Jews and all those finding Christ in the end?

I get it! The church get delivered, but the Jews get rescued.