Why Pretrib Logic Fails

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Could be. But maybe not.

Matthew 27:52-53  and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

While the text does not elaborate, we do have the writings of the early church, many of these writers either knew the Apostles themselves or were close to their disciples.  And many of these early writers suggest that these resurrected saints in Matthew were taken by Yeshua to the Father.  And that would make sense in light of Leviticus 23 regarding the harvest.

On the morning of His resurrection, He told Mary not to handle Him as He had not yet ascended to the Father.  In Leviticus 23, the high priest offers the first fruits of the harvest to Yahweh.  To do that, the high priest must remain ceremonially pure.  He was not to be touched or handled by anyone until after the offering of the first fruits.   

If what the early church writers claim in true, then Yeshua (our High Priest) took these resurrected OT saints to the Father as the offering of the first fruits.  We can speculate many other possibilities regarding these resurrected saints, but none of us were in close association with the Apostles who would have known for sure.  But many of the early church writers did know the apostles, so we must give some credibility to their writing on this issue.

You did see that simple word: "many?"  Would 24 be considered "many? (Just a though.) How many times in John 5 and 6 did Jesus tell them that He would raise them up "on the last day?"  Did you notice that at the last day of the week, the 7th vial, there is a HUGE earthquake - the world's worst? It is FAR greater than the earthquake when God raised up "many."  AT this resurrection, of the Old Covenant saints, including those from before the flood, there will be the world's worse ever earthquake. I picture it this way: the atoms or quarks that once made up those bodies from before the flood could (and probably was) be separated by thousands of miles! Some could be found under mountain ranges. When God brings together those atoms or quarks that used to make up their physical bodies, that action will CAUSE this world wide earthquake that sinks the mountains down into plains.  This is why I believe the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at the 7th vial: it fulfills what Jesus said, "on the last day," and we find the mother of all earthquakes.

[OldCoot]

Interesting idea, but not sure the “last day” can conclusively be applied to 7th vial.  It likely is a reference to the last day of history, which most likely is the millennial reign.  

Then the question becomes, when does the millennial reign begin?  A reasoned argument can be made that the 7th day / 7th 1000 years of history begins at the “Day of the Lord”, or the start of the Tribulation period.

During temple times, the temple was cleansed and prepared for Shabbat at the start of Shabbat.  The priests legally labored on Shabbat to do this.

The day of the Lord, or the Shabbat of history which is the reign of Messiah on earth, the Tribulation period could arguably be that cleansing. 

There are so many dynamics to these issues and Yahweh is far more than our minds can conceive of, that to conclusively  know with absolute certainty how this all plays out is arrogance by all of us.  

Prophecy is pattern as well as prediction. For instance, the story of David and Absolom is shockingly similar in detail to the Messiah vs Antichrist events of the Tribulation period.  It, as well as other past events in scripture, is the mural that lends some insight to how the events yet future will play out.  It is the tapestry of Yahweh that we will spend an eternity being in awe of.

[simplejeff]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

Well, assuming there is still a “church age” after Revelation 4:1 is as much imagining as you claim I am guilty of.  The church as a entity is never referred to again after chapter 3 except in the final salutations of the book.  

 

Perhaps you already know,  but the 'church' is not even mentioned in the Apocalypse,  (same in the book of Hebrews, the church is not referred to). 

Ekklesia is, which is different then and now and future.

The letters in the first chapters of the Apocalypse are mistranslated when "church" is used instead of Ekklesia assembly.   

 

[OldCoot]

1 minute ago, simplejeff said:

Perhaps you already know,  but the 'church' is not even mentioned in the Apocalypse,  (same in the book of Hebrews, the church is not referred to). 

Ekklesia is, which is different then and now and future.

The letters in the first chapters of the Apocalypse are mistranslated when "church" is used instead of Ekklesia assembly.   

 

Well, it is picking at straws a little.  We are dealing with translations, not the original Greek.

But even Ekklesia is not referred to after Revelation 3 until the final salutations of the Book.

[simplejeff]

5 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Well, it is picking at straws a little.  We are dealing with translations, not the original Greek.

But even Ekklesia is not referred to after Revelation 3 until the final salutations of the Book.

Actually in the original, in the first centuries,  they knew.   Today, few know. 

The truth is not picking at straws at all.    Don't even worry about a gazillion translations.  Don't dare interpret which God forbids.

Instead,  learn from the Father and from Jesus what is right, and do that.

[OldCoot]

19 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Actually in the original, in the first centuries,  they knew.   Today, few know. 

The truth is not picking at straws at all.    Don't even worry about a gazillion translations.  Don't dare interpret which God forbids.

Instead,  learn from the Father and from Jesus what is right, and do that.

So then, is the Septuagint translation invalid? The Apostles used it for many of their OT verse references in the NT.

Rabbit trail discussions like this are usually unfruitful distractions.

Edited February 26, 2019 by OldCoot

[simplejeff]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

So then, is the Septuagint translation invalid? The Apostles used it for many of their OT verse references in the NT.

Rabbit trail discussions like this are usually unfruitful distractions.

Again,  a mistake.  Seems like a poor or bad or mistaken motive, not seeking what is true and right with God.

Which is closer, which is right, which is better, which is best ?    What Jesus and the Apostles read and used daily/weekly in the Temple and synagogues and in people's homes and memory and meditation and life ......

or what Americans , Europeans, Africans,  Chinese,  Russians use generally TODAY ?

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Well, assuming there is still a “church age” after Revelation 4:1 is as much imagining as you claim I am guilty of.  The church as a entity is never referred to again after chapter 3 except in the final salutations of the book.  

 

Are church age martyrs not strong proof that the church age is still ongoing?  God is waiting for that final one. He knows the number. Have we arrived at the 6th seal yet? This is why I say the church is waiting between the 5th and 6th seal. 

Since the 70th week is for Daniel's people, and not the church, we should not expect the church to be listed from chapter 8 to chapter 16 - the 70th week chapters.  My point is this: if we asked a hundred beginning readers  - even kids that know about the rapture - to read John 4:1 & 2, would ANY of them say "that is the rapture?" I doubt it very seriously!  Because the church world did not recognize the great crowd too large to number as the raptured church, they were desperate to find the rapture in the early chapters of Revelation. John being called up was all they could find, so it became church doctrine! 

What time is in in John's narrative at the end of chapter 5? That is the question.  John has drawn pictures for us with words in chapters 4 & 5 that tell us the mind of Christ as far as timing.  I was frustrated after Jesus had asked me the three questions on these two chapters, plus he said it shows timing and the movement of time. I had 5 questions and I could answer none of them. I studied hard for hours a day for weeks  - until the day God sent me to chapter 12 so I could answer His questions on chapters 4 & 5! All I needed was "history lesson" on my mind. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Again,  a mistake.  Seems like a poor or bad or mistaken motive, not seeking what is true and right with God.

Which is closer, which is right, which is better, which is best ?    What Jesus and the Apostles read and used daily/weekly in the Temple and synagogues and in people's homes and memory and meditation and life ......

or what Americans , Europeans, Africans,  Chinese,  Russians use generally TODAY ?

I think with all the resources we have today, what we have today is better - but only marginally.  

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Interesting idea, but not sure the “last day” can conclusively be applied to 7th vial.  It likely is a reference to the last day of history, which most likely is the millennial reign.  

Then the question becomes, when does the millennial reign begin?  A reasoned argument can be made that the 7th day / 7th 1000 years of history begins at the “Day of the Lord”, or the start of the Tribulation period.

During temple times, the temple was cleansed and prepared for Shabbat at the start of Shabbat.  The priests legally labored on Shabbat to do this.

The day of the Lord, or the Shabbat of history which is the reign of Messiah on earth, the Tribulation period could arguably be that cleansing. 

There are so many dynamics to these issues and Yahweh is far more than our minds can conceive of, that to conclusively  know with absolute certainty how this all plays out is arrogance by all of us.  

Prophecy is pattern as well as prediction. For instance, the story of David and Absolom is shockingly similar in detail to the Messiah vs Antichrist events of the Tribulation period.  It, as well as other past events in scripture, is the mural that lends some insight to how the events yet future will play out.  It is the tapestry of Yahweh that we will spend an eternity being in awe of.

I think that when the kingdoms of the world are given to Jesus, that is a very strong hint of the millennial change - right there at the 7th trumpet. Adam's 6000 year lease will have ended, and suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to the world - so he is cast down and the world given to Jesus Christ. However, God will have some cleaning up to do!