There are two different horse Riders of Revelation.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

I stand by what I have said.

In your view how do those still alive at the end view the 2nd Coming. Where are they and how did they get there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

First, the rapture is pretrib. Many of those who are called "Christian" are raptured out. But there are MANY who call themselves Christian who will be left behind - because their church never taught them about the necessity of being born again. Many of those left behind will then realize their mistake, and turn to God with all their heart. They are the "remnant" spoken of in Rev. 12. Most, if not all of them will be captured and lose their head.  There may be some who survive. Many of the Jews and Hebrews will be killed, but a few will survive. Those that fled into the wilderness will survive.  Many nations will come against Israel for the battle of Armageddon. This will be Jesus THIRD coming.  Jesus comes and puts and end to that battle. I suspect it will be total darkness on earth. His coming will light up the sky as lightning. Probably while Jesus is descending, the parable of the tares will take place. 

Next, the sheep and goat judgment will take place, including ALL left alive on the earth.  I would guess, after the sheep and goat judgment, those who are sheep will be sent back to their homes wherever in the world. John does not tell us. The millennial reign of Christ will begin.

As for standing by what you have said, your theories will be proven wrong.  Your theories of necessity rearrange most of Revelation. You will find out it is in perfect order as written.

Edited March 3, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

No, I am not mistaken, absolutely. And what you said is not truth, no, its not.  

What you are saying has nothing to do with the messages given personally by the angel of the Lord to John. Seems you think and speak as if John had seen the things as it was like a dream.  John left very clear, saying:  "I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and OF THEM which keep the sayings of this book: worship God". Rev.22:v.8-9.  

And the verse 6 says: "And the angel said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true.

The Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to shew unto His servants the things which must shortly be done. (time future)

I do not believe of course in things like these you are posting here, I believe evidently in the message that God the Father did give to JESUS and JESUS did give unto His angel to shew unto John and unto the servants of God the things which would be shortly done.

It is you that see not that JESUS was at the right hand of God the Father, Who was sat in the throne. The Lamb of God having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth, was there of course and He, even He Himself, took the book out of the right hand (of God the Father), of Him that sat upon the throne.  Now, the Lord JESUS, being the brightness of God's Glory, and the express image of His Person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.  
 

John was face by face with a strong angel of the Lord, actually an archangel,  and John did write all things which were showed unto him by the angel of the Lord, and what John did see he did write. John was not doing any kind of search, absolutely, he was focused in what the angel was saying and showing unto him.   What you are saying has nothing to do with the revelation, but suppositions and speculations, and divination.

 

In the understanding of John "no man was found".   No man was found or  no man was able? or no man  was worthy to?  Who first expressed in this way was not John, but the angel of the Lord, saying: Rev. 5:v.2-3CJB : “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” 3 But no one in heaven, on earth or under the earth was ABLE to open the scroll or LOOK inside it. But why? It because until that moment all things which were written in the book (the Book of Apocalypse or Revelation focused here now) were in secret and kept with God the Father, so only He did know the things written in the Book, but they were about to be revealed. 

Let us analyze deeply this event. The book of Revelation was yet at the right hand of God the Father sat in His throne, and the Lamb of God being the brightness of God's Glory, and the express image of His Person, was there too.  Again, then John did see "a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice (as if it were a challenge), saying: “ Who is worthy (and able) to open the scroll and break its seals?”  
How could any man open the scroll and break its seven seals, if the secrets things of the Book were yet with God the Father exclusively until that moment? So no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was ABLE to open the book, neither to look thereon. 
 

Unfortunately what you are saying is worse than a cunningly devised fable.
 

Who did write it then? I will never keep things like this written from you. 
 

Friend, you have merely quoted things John did write, and did twist it. 

 Now, the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each for what is useful, and one of His gifts is the ability to judge between spirits,  to discern or distinguishing between spirits. From my part It is impossible to be confused by the  spirit of man which is in the man. What man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.

Rev. 22:v.18-19 CJB
18 I warn everyone hearing the words of the prophecy in this book that if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues written in this book. 19 And if anyone takes anything away from the words in the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the Tree of Life and the holy city, as described in this book.

ORDS, you are STILL mistaken. Most of the book of Revelation came to John in a VISION. 

But why? It because until that moment all things which were written in the book (the Book of Apocalypse or Revelation focused here now) were in secret   NO, ORDS, you are mistaken, missing the entire intent of these two chapters.  You cannot just pull out one verse and hope to get its meaning out of context! You know better than this. 

It is the entire message: first, Jesus NOT SEEN in the throne room, then second, no man found worthy to take the book and open the seals, then the Holy Spirit still in the throne room, when Jesus had said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. These three points together show us TIMING: God is showing us a time while Jesus was still on earth and had not yet risen from the dead. The REASON "no man was found" is very simple: it is TIMING: Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. 

However, in chapter 5, ANOTHER search was made, and in this subsequent search, finally SOMEONE was found to be worthy to open the seals. You see, someone had FINALLY become the redeemer of mankind. HOW? He lived a sinless life, died, and rose again.  He took the sins of the world upon himself as He died (the wages of sin is death) and then in three days He rose from the dead to become the Redeemer! This is why and how He became the Redeemer and how He finally was found worthy. Before He rose, He could not have been found worthy - which is why in that first search, "no man was found."

The only reason you insist this is not the truth is very simple: you lack understanding of the Author's intent. 

"I John saw these things, and heard them. Absolutely true, but it was in VISION form.

Revelation 9:17

And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

 

I do not believe of course in things like these you are posting here, Well, you SHOULD, because I am only writing what is written - showing the intent of the Author - the Holy Spirit. You say this because you lack understanding of what the Author is showing us. Always remember, chapters 4 & 5 show us TIMING, and are the CONTEXT of the first seal. If anyone misses the CONTEXT, then they will be miles off on the first seal. ORDS, you have a choice here: you could learn, if you are willing to let go of preconceived ideas and just believe what the Word tells us.

 

It is you that see not that JESUS was at the right hand of God the Father, Who was sat in the throne  

Sorry, But you are add libbing something not there.  It was JOHN that did not see Jesus at the right hand of the Father. If you disagree, SHOW US THE VERSE where Jesus is there in chapter 4. John was looking into the throne room - when He saw God our Father on the throne, if Jesus was there, He  SHOULD HAVE SEEN JESUS. But He did not. WHY? Because at that moment in time, [in the vision] Jesus was still on the earth or under the earth.

 

He, even He Himself, took the book out of the right hand (of God the Father), of Him that sat upon the throne.  

Yes, OF COURSE He did - LATER. What you are missing: Jesus was NOT THERE until chapter 5 verse 6. What else you are missing: verse 6 is John seeing that very moment Jesus ascended, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. As soon as He sent Mary away, He DID ascend, and here in chapter 5 of Revelation John got to see that moment in time when Jesus did ascend.  As I have said, these two chapters show us TIMING and the movement of time. TIME passes between verse 3 and verse 5. In one search "no man was found," but in a subsequent search finally Jesus was found worthy.  You have totally MISSED the timing aspect of this passage.

 

He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.    When? WHEN did Jesus do this? It was in 32 AD! John is in 95 AD when he was called up to heaven! But in 95 AD John was seeing a vision of 32 AD. This is not a difficult concept! I believe you can GET THIS: that is, if you will lay aside your preconceived theories and just read what John wrote.

 

John was not doing any kind of search  Of course not! But John WATCHED a search being done by angels.  Please, ORDS, read with understanding!

 

What you are saying has nothing to do with the revelation, but suppositions and speculations, and divination.  No, this sentence fits what YOU are saying. I am saying exactly what this passage tells us: when John looked into the throne room, HE DID NOT SEE Jesus at the right hand of the Father - because this was a vision of the past: John was looking into the throne room while Jesus was STILL on earth.  "No man was found" worthy because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead TO BECOME WORTHY! This was a vision of the past - a time before Jesus rose from the dead.  The Holy Spirit was still there simply because it was a vision of the past - a time BEFORE Christ ascnded and sent the Holy Spirit down. Take off your preconceived glasses and you can see this truth too!  In chapter 5, TIME PASSED and Jesus did rise from the dead, and THEN He was found worthy.  And then John saw that moment in time when Jesus DID ascend and enter the throne room. THEN Jesus was in the throne room - but not until then. And He took the book.

 

Unfortunately what you are saying is worse than a cunningly devised fable.  What you are writing would come much closer to a fable.  

 

Can you come up with a BETTER explanation of why Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4, and WHY "no man was found" and WHY the Holy Spirit was there in chapter 4? We are all ears to see your explanation. 

 

What you are missing: Jesus Christ, the head of the church - the very Jesus that ascended and took the book - TAUGHT ME that these chapters show us timing and the movement of time. But I, quite like you, was blinded and could not see it. He had to asked me three questions about these two chapters. I was dense and COULD NOT ANSWER His questions. Thank God, He had great patience with my slowness to learn. (I had an open mind to learn.)  He said, "until you can answer these three questions correctly, you will NEVER understand this part of John's visions."  I would add, that is right where YOU are now. But you have not made any effort to give us YOUR explanation of these three questions.

 

Friend, you have merely quoted things John did write, and did twist it.   No, I understood it; I hope one day you will understand it. You could - if you are willing to take off your preconceived glasses. For example, you imagine Jesus at the right hand of the Father, when John did not SEE HIM there.  What? Do you think the second person of the Godhead was there and John MISSED HIM? My friend, NOT A CHANCE! The truth is, HE WAS NOT THERE. And that was the very intent of God to show us TIMING.

 

As I said, you have a golden opportunity here to learn. I wonder what you will do with it.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

No Iam. I am not mistaken, absolutely.  You are mistaken , really.

John was caught unto heaven (Rev.4v.1) as the same manner was Paul the Apostle to the third heaven, the paradise,  where he heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. By the way, the third heaven is exactly the environment of the Kingdom of God, which will be established in the earth in this seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day. Of the same manner Saul was face to face with JESUS near Damascus, thus John was face to face with a strong angel of the Lord, actually an Archangel, who revealed to John all things that JESUS ordained him to show.    Seems you do not know and believe not in the Power and works of the Most High and Almighty God. 

The entire message you wrote above has nothing to do whith what was showed to John through the angel of the Lord. "I John saw these things, and heard them. Absolutely true, but it was in VISION form".   The case is that your VISION has nothing to do with the VISION of John, much less with the things which were showed to John by the angel of the Lord.   Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.     Now, now, you do not come up hither, how can you understand the book of Apocalypse? 

 

No, I should not absolutely, the question is not what you have quoted from the Book of Revelation, but your deceitful comments.  The Holy Spirit would never say what you say. Take care. 

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a LAMB as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Who is this LAMB?

I do not work with imaginations, and speculations, and suppositions, and cunningly devised fables, as you do. What I have learned I learned not from any man.  And what prevails is the Word of God, as follow: Revelation 22:v.18-19

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

I stand by what I wrote. Someone that lacks understanding cannot answer these simple questions. I asked for a verse in chapter 4 that shows Jesus in the throne room. You show a verse in chapter 5. EVERYONE Knows Jesus shows up in chapter 5.

We were talking about chapter 4, when John first looked into the throne room and Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the father. Yet, we have more than a dozen verses telling us that is where He went to be.  So you STILL have not answered the question: WHY was Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?

The next question: WHY was "no man found worthy" in that first search John watched  - that ended in failure? You have not answered this yet either - but not for a lack of words. You wrote a lot of words, but did not answer.

The third question: tell us why the Holy Spirit was there in the throne room in chapter 4 (as the seven Spirits) when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended? 

This time, at least TRY to answer the questions? And this time, at least TRY to be nice? No one is trying to deceive anyone else here. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

It is you who do not see Him.  John did not say JESUS was not there, you are saying and adding this erroneously.  Your interpretation does not translate Truth.
 

You yourself said "We were talking about chapter 4".  Now, now, there is not any mention "no man found worthy" in the context. You're walking down crooked paths, twisting the written words.  There was no first search for a man in the context, it is you who are adding this fictional search and the intention of your spirit ends in failure. 

 

They are up there. 

And did not you take the chapter 5 to make question of your wrong interpretations? 

I was not there looking at a vision of the throne room; John was.  Do you imagine that John SAW Jesus at the right hand of the FAther and just did not tell us?  If so, your imagination is far wilder than mine! "No man found worthy" is in chapter 5. You and I both know that.  Why argue about it? 

The big question is, can you come up with ANY reason why John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the FAther, (in chapter 4) or saw Him but failed to write about it?

Can you come up with any reason why "no man was found worthy" in that first search John watched?

If you can't come up with good solid reasons why Jesus was not mentioned as being at the right hand of the Father, and why "no man was found worthy, then stop disagreeing! 

I say the reason why is because this is a vision of the past, a time before Jesus rose from the dead. 

Then, time passed and Jesus rose from the dead, was then found worthy to take the book, then ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - and John got to see that moment in the vision.  It all fits, whether you agree or not.

There WAS a search and john wrote about it: in heaven, then on earth, and then under the earth. If no search, why in the world would John write, "no man was found...?"  The truth is, THEY WERE SEARCHING.

Edited March 7, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

What you said is an invention of your heart. The context of the chapter 4 says that the seven spirits of God are seven lamps of fire burning before the throne.  Anyway, the Holy Spirit was there, evidently. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (the Word made flesh), and the Holy Spirit: and these three are One. Furthermore,  Michael, and Gabriel, among others were in the room too.  By the way, which one in the room do you think is the person of the Holy Spirit? You said he's in the room, so what's his name?  He is known as the Comfort and  Paraclete, we know of this, but these are not names.
 

He is the Holy Spirit...a part of God. His name is Jehovah.  I "invent" nothing. I just state what is obvious in the scripture. 

Were the seven spirits of God seen in the throne room in chapter 4?  You know they were seen because John wrote of it.  Sorry, now you are inventing: John says NOTHING about Michael being there. OF Course the Holy Spirit and the seven spirits of God are one and the same. 

[iamlamad]

On 3/6/2019 at 3:16 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

...

...   There was no first search for a man in the context, it is you who are adding this fictional search and the intention of your spirit ends in failure. 

No search? How can you say that? Did you not read?

Rev. 5 (AMP)

 ² And I saw a strong angel announcing with a loud voice, “Who is worthy [having the authority and virtue] to open the scroll and to ^[a]break its seals?” ³ And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth [in Hades, the realm of the dead] was able to open the scroll or look into it. ⁴ And I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or look into it. 

John did not write the word "search" here, but the words he did write indicate a search was made: first in heaven, then on earth, they under the earth. We can guess they were angels doing the search. They were looking for someone qualified to take the scroll and open the seals. In this search, NO MAN was found worthy. This tells me they were looking for a MAN.

[Spock]

On 3/6/2019 at 4:20 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

What you said is an invention of your heart. The context of the chapter 4 says that the seven spirits of God are seven lamps of fire burning before the throne.  Anyway, the Holy Spirit was there, evidently. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (the Word made flesh), and the Holy Spirit: and these three are One. Furthermore,  Michael, and Gabriel, among others were in the room too.  By the way, which one in the room do you think is the person of the Holy Spirit? You said he's in the room, so what's his name?  He is known as the Comfort and  Paraclete, we know of this, but these are not names.
 

Hey Oseas....I like your name....it has a rich sound. I always did like the de added before the last name. Cool.

okay, sorry to interrupt. 

[Spock]

On 3/17/2019 at 4:16 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Continuation of post above
REVELATION 6 

JESUS open the SEALED book and break up one of its seven seals. 
v.1 John saw when JESUS opened one of the seals, and he heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four Cherubs saying, Come and see.
v.2 And John saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a BOW; and a crown was given unto him: and he goes forth conquering, and to conquer.
As all can see, one of the four Cherubs did call John and shows to him a white horse and its noble rider, to whom was given a BOW and a crown and he goes forth conquering, and to conquer to establish the Kingdom of God. 
This first seal reveals the PROPHETIC union between Christ and His Church, as it is revealed in Psalms 45:v.2-8, among others, as follows:
v.2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
v.3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
v.4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
v.5 Thine ARROWS (this is the reason by which was given to the noble rider a BOW) are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
v.6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
v.7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
v.8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.

THE BATTLE WILL BE REIGN AGAINST REIGN 
- the God's reign against the Devil's reign -

The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev.11:v.15) 
v.18 The nations will be angry, and the wrath of God is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that God should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and He should destroy them which destroy the earth.

THE RED HORSE AND ITS RIDER
v.3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second Cherub say, Come and see.
v.4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

The rider of the red horse is the most powerful MAN that is reigning in the earth in the present time and he is doing his works, for power was given to him to take peace from the earth and that the inhabitants of the earth should kill one another: and unto him was given a great sword.    

We are already living within the time period of these first two horses and their respective riders. These two riders above are already running in the earth and each one is doing the works to which they both were destined.

THE BLACK AND THE PALE HORSES
Be ready,  another two terrible horses and their satanic riders, i.e. the black and the pale horses, will manifest soon, from now on.

Thus saith the Lord God;  An evil, an only evil, behold, is come.
An end is come, the end is come: it watches for thee; behold, it is come.
The morning is come unto thee, O thou that dwells in the land: the time is come, the day of trouble is near, and not the sounding again of the mountains.
Now will I shortly pour out my fury upon thee, and accomplish mine anger upon thee: and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense thee for all thine abominations.
And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the Lord that smites.
Behold the day, behold, it is come: the morning is gone forth; the rod has blossomed, pride has budded.
Hear ye the rod, and who has appointed it.
The Lord's voice cries unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy name. 

Great stuff, brother Oseas.  ???✌️

[R. Hartono]

On 3/18/2019 at 3:16 AM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

This first seal reveals the PROPHETIC union between Christ and His Church, as it is revealed in Psalms 45:v.2-8, among others, as follows:
v.2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
v.3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
v.4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
v.5 Thine ARROWS (this is the reason by which was given to the noble rider a BOW) are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
v.6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
v.7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
v.8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.

 

There's no need for God to hide the union between Christ and His church with a seal, in fact it is not a secret since it began.

[R. Hartono]

On 3/18/2019 at 3:16 AM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

As all can see, one of the four Cherubs did call John and shows to him a white horse and its noble rider, to whom was given a BOW and a crown and he goes forth conquering, and to conquer to establish the Kingdom of God. 

 

This first seal reveals the PROPHETIC union between Christ and His Church,

1. There is no word "noble rider" its your own words.

2. The union between Christ and His church has been widely known to people ever since He established the first church of apostles, which was continued by the apostles in the book of Acts. Tell me why God would hide this thing already known to people with a seal ?  Jesus ministry has begun about 50 years be4 John rcvd the Revelation at Patmos island and John already knew that, why would John cried for the things he already knew ?

Rev 6:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

See above verse, if Jesus didnt open the seal nobody will know the secret of end times situation, Jesus union and His church is not a secret of end times that needs to b hidden with seals, everybody knows already that Jesus and His church is a union, not a secret at all.