The Last Trumpet: The Trumpet of God

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

It is "proof" only in your mind, not others. Do you deny the things I showed you? They come right off the pages of the book. 

If you wish to be left behind when Jesus comes pretrib for His church, that is between you and God. I wonder though, if you convince someone of your wrong theory and they MISS the pretrib rapture because of you - will God hold you accountable? 

OF COURSE there is a 7 year 70th week. Do you imagine Jacob worked only 3.5 years for the woman he loved? No, He worked 7 long years. That is why they also called the 70th week "Jacob's trouble."  And Paul tells us HIS rapture comes before wrath - and John tells us the wrath of God begins before the week even starts.  In other words, I have no idea where your theory comes from.

Like I said, it does not matter if two events matched perfectly: what matters is, WHAT TIME does each event happen. The truth is, you are IGNORING the time.

Hi iamlamad

                     OK so if this is about a pre trib rapture, I already posted Rev 15:8- And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Nobody gets in until those things are finished. 

But now my question is about what happens when the rapture DOES take place. Will there not be a resurrection at that time as well? Of course, the dead in Christ rise first, etc. The only resurrection in scripture after that is a thousand years later. "The rest of the dead......". So if the pre trib rapture takes place, how do those in Rev 7 get in? > > After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;.......These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

>> Rev 20:4- And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There is no question that they were in the tribulation. I would venture to say they include those who were alive and remained. But we would run out of resurrections (and raptures) We only need to count to two for resurrections and one for raptures. I don't know of any other way to "get in". 

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, OneLight said:

General Statement ...

Please choose your words carefully.  One may not accept the theology another member has, which is why we have discussions.  These discussions follow scripture as we are to reason with one another.  Unfortunately, sometimes our flesh rears its ugly head and we find ourselves writing accusatory statements instead of disagreement statements.  These statements are passive aggressive in nature and are not straight out personal attacks, yet, they cut still the same. 

Remember, eschatology and prophecy forums are not built for "I'm right and you're wrong" statements because nobody can prove 100% they are correct until the future becomes the present or past.  We all see through a glass darkly or in a mirror dimly as we do not know the complete truth until we see it happen.

?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi iamlamad

                     OK so if this is about a pre trib rapture, I already posted Rev 15:8- And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Nobody gets in until those things are finished. 

But now my question is about what happens when the rapture DOES take place. Will there not be a resurrection at that time as well? Of course, the dead in Christ rise first, etc. The only resurrection in scripture after that is a thousand years later. "The rest of the dead......". So if the pre trib rapture takes place, how do those in Rev 7 get in? > > After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;.......These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

>> Rev 20:4- And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There is no question that they were in the tribulation. I would venture to say they include those who were alive and remained. But we would run out of resurrections (and raptures) We only need to count to two for resurrections and one for raptures. I don't know of any other way to "get in". 

Those in Revelation ARE the raptured church - just raptured.  Don't be led astray by "great tribulation." John has not yet started the week, much less arrived at the second half.  What John is telling us is that people we be being martyred right up to the time of the rapture. For them it was "great tribulation." it seems God calls the entire church age "the tribulation" and the days when the rapture takes place as great tribulation. They certainly have not come out of a future time. God is not into time warps.  Why do you compare those in chapter 7 - the just raptured church - with the martyrs of the church age? They are two separate groups at two different times. Again you are totally ignoring TIME.  Those beheaded during the days of GT only begin showing up in chapter 15. That group too large to number was already in heaven in chapter 7 - before the week has begun. 

You are miss-interpreting the "first" or major resurrection. It covers the righteous  - period. Jesus was a part of that resurrection. The raptured church will be a part of that resurrection - then the 144,000, then the Old Testament saints with the two witnesses, and yes, the beheaded - all the righteous. 

Does it say that those IN the temple were forced to leave? I don't read that.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi iamlamad

                     OK so if this is about a pre trib rapture, I already posted Rev 15:8- And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Nobody gets in until those things are finished. 

But now my question is about what happens when the rapture DOES take place. Will there not be a resurrection at that time as well? Of course, the dead in Christ rise first, etc. The only resurrection in scripture after that is a thousand years later. "The rest of the dead......". So if the pre trib rapture takes place, how do those in Rev 7 get in? > > After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;.......These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

>> Rev 20:4- And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There is no question that they were in the tribulation. I would venture to say they include those who were alive and remained. But we would run out of resurrections (and raptures) We only need to count to two for resurrections and one for raptures. I don't know of any other way to "get in". 

There is plenty of room in heaven OUTSIDE the temple. And perhaps the church was already IN the temple. I don't read where anyone is asked to leave. 

Of course there is a resurrection with the rapture. You are trying to place a TIME for the "first" or most honorable resurrection - a time after the days of GT are over. The truth is, there will be waves of people entering at different times. Jesus was the very first. The dead in Christ will be next. Etc. 

[Uriah]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Those in Revelation ARE the raptured church - just raptured.  Don't be led astray by "great tribulation." John has not yet started the week, much less arrived at the second half.  What John is telling us is that people we be being martyred right up to the time of the rapture. For them it was "great tribulation." it seems God calls the entire church age "the tribulation" and the days when the rapture takes place as great tribulation. They certainly have not come out of a future time. God is not into time warps.  Why do you compare those in chapter 7 - the just raptured church - with the martyrs of the church age? They are two separate groups at two different times. Again you are totally ignoring TIME.  Those beheaded during the days of GT only begin showing up in chapter 15. That group too large to number was already in heaven in chapter 7 - before the week has begun. 

You are miss-interpreting the "first" or major resurrection. It covers the righteous  - period. Jesus was a part of that resurrection. The raptured church will be a part of that resurrection - then the 144,000, then the Old Testament saints with the two witnesses, and yes, the beheaded - all the righteous. 

Does it say that those IN the temple were forced to leave? I don't read that.

Hi iamlamad

                    Jesus said that, " ...in the world you will have tribulation...". Yet the scriptures teach us that there is a time of tribulation that is like no other time. It is commonly called the great tribulation. There is only ONE rapture of the church shown in scripture. It is accompanied by the resurrection. Rev. 20:4- "...THIS is the first resurrection...", known among scholars as the first "general" resurrection. It includes those who have resisted the mark etc. which must be resisted right up until the END! It appears you have multiple resurrections (raptures?) groups etc. Totally unscriptural.

Heb 11:40-  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. So the O.T. saints are resurrected at the same time as the rest of us. The bible doesn't treat us as "groups" but as, "ONE body", with ONE Lord, ONE faith and on and on. 

Now as for "those IN the temple" that you mention, does scripture show them anywhere else? Again, let's look at what it DOES say.

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is plenty of room in heaven OUTSIDE the temple. And perhaps the church was already IN the temple. I don't read where anyone is asked to leave. 

Of course there is a resurrection with the rapture. You are trying to place a TIME for the "first" or most honorable resurrection - a time after the days of GT are over. The truth is, there will be waves of people entering at different times. Jesus was the very first. The dead in Christ will be next. Etc. 

Error!

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Uriah said:

Error!

So prove that with scripture. If Spock was here with His logic, he would laugh at you. Why? There are ONLY TWO resurrections BY TITLE - not just two times that people will be resurrected. The first or most honorable or "chief" of resurrections is for the righteous. That means EVERY righteous person ever resurrected or to be resurrected will be covered under what John called the "first" resurrection. Now, do you imagine Jesus was resurrected under the first or under the second?

[Uriah]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

So prove that with scripture. If Spock was here with His logic, he would laugh at you. Why? There are ONLY TWO resurrections BY TITLE - not just two times that people will be resurrected. The first or most honorable or "chief" of resurrections is for the righteous. That means EVERY righteous person ever resurrected or to be resurrected will be covered under what John called the "first" resurrection. Now, do you imagine Jesus was resurrected under the first or under the second?

John 11:25- Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi iamlamad

                    Jesus said that, " ...in the world you will have tribulation...". Yet the scriptures teach us that there is a time of tribulation that is like no other time. It is commonly called the great tribulation. There is only ONE rapture of the church shown in scripture. It is accompanied by the resurrection. Rev. 20:4- "...THIS is the first resurrection...", known among scholars as the first "general" resurrection. It includes those who have resisted the mark etc. which must be resisted right up until the END! It appears you have multiple resurrections (raptures?) groups etc. Totally unscriptural.

Heb 11:40-  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. So the O.T. saints are resurrected at the same time as the rest of us. The bible doesn't treat us as "groups" but as, "ONE body", with ONE Lord, ONE faith and on and on. 

Now as for "those IN the temple" that you mention, does scripture show them anywhere else? Again, let's look at what it DOES say.

Right: ONE (1) rapture of the church. But the Old Testament saints must be resurrected some time, and they are NOT "in Christ." There's must be another time. OF COURSE there will be multiple. AGain you are placing TIMING on "first" resurrection. It is NOT first as in chronology but first in HONOR. It is for the righteous. (it will also be first in time, but the timing is NOT just one moment in time. Again, which do you choose of the two for Jesus' resurrection? His MUST be included in one or the other, since there are only two. Which will you choose for the 144,000 that are seen the second time in heaven? Which will you choose for the Old Testament saints?  You only imagine it is unscriptural. Agreed, the resurrection of the Old Covenant saints is not written plainly in black and white, but several times Jesus said He would raise them up "on the last day." That would be at the time of the 7th vial that ends the week.

 

OF COURSE we are "groups." The church is not the 144,000, in spite of what the JW tell us. Neither are any of the OT saints "in Christ."  All this is just common sense and logic.  

AS for the temple: do you imagine the river of life is INSIDE the temple? 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Uriah said:

John 11:25- Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Yet John wrote that there are ONLY TWO, and he wrote that under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - meaning, with Jesus' approval.  Therefore Jesus own resurrection MUST come under one or the other in Revelation.  Did you not also read that He was the "firstfruits?" If there is a first, then there MUST BE a second. OF COURSE He was part of that "first" resurrection John wrote of.  It is included in the word, "first-fruits."