Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

No, it is not that we read them differently, it is that we have not discussed the scriptures I quoted.

We read of the judgments that the Father has written in the scroll, and then we read of God`s mercy to Israel, (144, 000 priests) and the Great multitude. We read that they are OF the all the nations, tribes etc. (Rev. 7: 9) They are still OF those nations, however now they are `saved,` have their robes washed in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7: 14) They serve the Lord and `follow` obey Him. Their inheritance is ON the earth as God`s word says -

`And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honour into it.` (Rev. 21: 24)

Thus we see the nation who are saved, are still nations, and they are on the earth. The Body of Christ is the Lord`s Body and will sit with Him on His own throne in the angelic realm.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

Look forward to discussing scripture with scripture. Marilyn.

I think this really is how we read the scriptures. You see, I and convinced that Revelation is in as perfect chronological order as was possible for John to write. I am SO convinced of this, I wrote an axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL BE proven wrong. 

My theory fits perfectly with this axiom, and follows John's Chronology.  In your theory, John is looking far into the future and writing it before those events. I don't see these scriptures as prophecy.  

Why did John put these two passages (the sealing and the raptured church) right there between the 6th and 7th seal? For the 144,000, it is easy to say: the sealing is for their protection during the trumpet judgments (at least one of them). It must be accomplished before the trumpet judgments come. Once the 7th seal is opened, all seals are then off the book and the book is then opened  - to reveal the trumpet judgments. So between these two seals is the perfect time for God to accomplish this sealing.

As for the great crowd - too large to number - they are the just raptured church. Paul tells us that the rapture will come just a moment before wrath: those living in the light of the gospel will be raptured out - but those living in darkness are left behind and they cannot escape the sudden destruction. I am convinced that sudden destruction is the earthquake at the 6th seal. It is also the start of God's wrath according to Paul. It is right then that John saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, showing us that they indeed raptured out before His wrath started. 

For those that think they can rearrange Revelation to fit a theory.....I refer them to the axiom above. Their theory will be proven wrong.

Question: does it seem to you that you are rearranging Revelation to fit your theory? 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Thank you for such lovely words of encouragement dear bro. I see you as a man of God who is careful for what he would believe, and rightly so. Thus I believe there needs more details as to my comments and more discussion for understanding or pointing our error.

1. The Great Multitude OF the Nations are those who turn to God in the Great tribulation, (Rev. 7: 14). They are known as the nations and they are saved. Thus when we read in Rev. 21: 24 of the `nations of those who are saved` on the earth, then we can surely say that it is those of the nations who came out of the Great Tribulation. That is their inheritance, the New earth, while the Body of Christ, we know is in heaven, on the Lord`s own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)  

Any thoughts or questions so far?

Marilyn.

BTW `Speculative` is when something is not backed up by the appropriate scripture/s or no scripture. And that is what a discussion should bring out, whether the comment is true or in error.

I disagree. I think the great crowd, too large to number, is the just raptured church. I think John is telling us that at the time of the rapture, there will be "great tribulation" on earth - just NOT the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of that will come later, during the 70th week.

Did you ever stop to wonder just HOW MANY dead in Christ there are? There has been time for close to 50 generations of believers.  The first few were of course few in number, but the last few generations were very large in number. All together they are going to number in the billions. Certainly this is too large for John to count, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc: He would have had to live a LOT longer than 100 years old.

The number of those saved during the 70th week is going to be a much, much smaller number.  

We are back to chronology: in chapter 7, John has not yet even started the 70th week, but you imagine he is seeing those saved during the week.  To me this is rearranging Revelation to fit a theory.  For example, it seems you are comparing this large crowd in chapter 7 with those in chapter 21. 

Why would you think God would show John a crowd that survived the 70th week before John has even started the week? 

[Spock]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

I disagree. I think the great crowd, too large to number, is the just raptured church. I think John is telling us that at the time of the rapture, there will be "great tribulation" on earth - just NOT the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of that will come later, during the 70th week.

Did you ever stop to wonder just HOW MANY dead in Christ there are? There has been time for close to 50 generations of believers.  The first few were of course few in number, but the last few generations were very large in number. All together they are going to number in the billions. Certainly this is too large for John to count, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc: He would have had to live a LOT longer than 100 years old.

The number of those saved during the 70th week is going to be a much, much smaller number.  

We are back to chronology: in chapter 7, John has not yet even started the 70th week, but you imagine he is seeing those saved during the week.  To me this is rearranging Revelation to fit a theory.  For example, it seems you are comparing this large crowd in chapter 7 with those in chapter 21. 

Why would you think God would show John a crowd that survived the 70th week before John has even started the week? 

You bring up a very good point LA......will there be many saved people during the Trib? 

It doesn’t seem like many will repent once the bowls are released and then, what about that great delusion that even God will allow to be spread for those who choose not to believe? Will that be a world wide delusion? 

It appears to me there should be a remnant of Gentiles believers though based on Rev 12:17.  They are not Israel because the WOMAN is being protected in the wildnersness for 3.5 years. Woman=Jews.

So, I imagine there will be some remnant of Gentiles who turn to Christ after the rapture but certainly not as big as Rev 7:9-17 describes. Thus, I cannot agree with Marilyn’s interpretatio  just on that ground. 

I completely agree with you LA....Rev 7:9-17 are the raptured church. My spirit confirms that interpretation (YES, YES, YESSSSS when reading it).

[Spock]

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I think this really is how we read the scriptures. You see, I and convinced that Revelation is in as perfect chronological order as was possible for John to write. I am SO convinced of this, I wrote an axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL BE proven wrong. 

My theory fits perfectly with this axiom, and follows John's Chronology.  In your theory, John is looking far into the future and writing it before those events. I don't see these scriptures as prophecy.  

Why did John put these two passages (the sealing and the raptured church) right there between the 6th and 7th seal? For the 144,000, it is easy to say: the sealing is for their protection during the trumpet judgments (at least one of them). It must be accomplished before the trumpet judgments come. Once the 7th seal is opened, all seals are then off the book and the book is then opened  - to reveal the trumpet judgments. So between these two seals is the perfect time for God to accomplish this sealing.

As for the great crowd - too large to number - they are the just raptured church. Paul tells us that the rapture will come just a moment before wrath: those living in the light of the gospel will be raptured out - but those living in darkness are left behind and they cannot escape the sudden destruction. I am convinced that sudden destruction is the earthquake at the 6th seal. It is also the start of God's wrath according to Paul. It is right then that John saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7, showing us that they indeed raptured out before His wrath started. 

For those that think they can rearrange Revelation to fit a theory.....I refer them to the axiom above. Their theory will be proven wrong.

Question: does it seem to you that you are rearranging Revelation to fit your theory? 

So, you believe even the interludes are chronological. Hmmm

Explain how the Beast and False Prophet come into the Book in chapter 13 when this follows all of the TRUMPETS?  Don’t you believe You these two guys are revealed before then?  I believe they must precede the trumpets. 

Same argument for the two witnesses who enter the scene in chapter 11. Do you believe they also FOLLOW the trumpets?  I don’t. 

I will stop there and wait to see how you respond to the above. 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Spock said:

You bring up a very good point LA......will there be many saved people during the Trib? 

It doesn’t seem like many will repent once the bowls are released and then, what about that great delusion that even God will allow to be spread for those who choose not to believe? Will that be a world wide delusion? 

It appears to me there should be a remnant of Gentiles believers though based on Rev 12:17.  They are not Israel because the WOMAN is being protected in the wildnersness for 3.5 years. Woman=Jews.

So, I imagine there will be some remnant of Gentiles who turn to Christ after the rapture but certainly not as big as Rev 7:9-17 describes. Thus, I cannot agree with Marilyn’s interpretatio  just on that ground. 

I completely agree with you LA....Rev 7:9-17 are the raptured church. My spirit confirms that interpretation (YES, YES, YESSSSS when reading it).

I think the vast majority of those saved will be right after the rapture when they find out they were left behind. I think millions will then get serious with God and turn to Him.  I think there are millions today that call themselves "Christians" but have never been born again. Their churches have not taught them.  Agreed: CERTAINLY not a crowd too large to number!

It is kind of strange, I KNEW by revelation knowledge this group was the raptured church, but in my mind, I could not see it for some time. 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Spock said:

So, you believe even the interludes are chronological. Hmmm

Explain how the Beast and False Prophet come into the Book in chapter 13 when this follows all of the TRUMPETS?  Don’t you believe You these two guys are revealed before then?  I believe they must precede the trumpets. 

Same argument for the two witnesses who enter the scene in chapter 11. Do you believe they also FOLLOW the trumpets?  I don’t. 

I will stop there and wait to see how you respond to the above. 

Yes, absolutely!  

The man of sin will be revealed (as the antichrist) when He enters the temple and declares he is God. Then, when Satan is cast down, He will become the Beast. God introduced John to the dragon first, because he will be behind everything the Beast does. Then God introduced John to the Beast and False Prophet. It is my belief that few, if any will know who will be the Beast until after the midpoint of the week. I think the confirmation of the 7 year treaty or whatever will be done in secret - or there will be many involved so no one will know which individual will become the Beast. 

Why would you imagine they would precede the trumpets? Think about what Paul said about "revealed." No one is going to know who until come man enters the Jewish temple and declares he is God. Then he has revealed himself.

The two witnesses will show up just before the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint - exactly as John has written.  But you should recognize verses 4 through 13 are a parenthesis. (chapter 11) 

Why would you try to rearrange Revelation? Why not form a theory that FITS?

[Spock]

24 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Yes, absolutely!  

The man of sin will be revealed (as the antichrist) when He enters the temple and declares he is God. Then, when Satan is cast down, He will become the Beast. God introduced John to the dragon first, because he will be behind everything the Beast does. Then God introduced John to the Beast and False Prophet. It is my belief that few, if any will know who will be the Beast until after the midpoint of the week. I think the confirmation of the 7 year treaty or whatever will be done in secret - or there will be many involved so no one will know which individual will become the Beast. 

Why would you imagine they would precede the trumpets? Think about what Paul said about "revealed." No one is going to know who until come man enters the Jewish temple and declares he is God. Then he has revealed himself.

The two witnesses will show up just before the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint - exactly as John has written.  But you should recognize verses 4 through 13 are a parenthesis. (chapter 11) 

Why would you try to rearrange Revelation? Why not form a theory that FITS?

Okay, now I see where you are coming from. 

Unlike you, I havent quite sealed it in my mind that the trumpet judgments PRECEDE the AOD.  I realize that if I placed the trumpets in the first half of the week, then that means only the bowls are released in the second half of the week.  Your 7-7-7 timeline is very doable.....I just haven’t put my seal,of approval on it yet. I’m still mulling over Rev Mans timeline.....all seals, trumpets, and bowls into the second half of the week.  That one really shocked me.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Spock said:

Okay, now I see where you are coming from. 

Unlike you, I havent quite sealed it in my mind that the trumpet judgments PRECEDE the AOD.  I realize that if I placed the trumpets in the first half of the week, then that means only the bowls are released in the second half of the week.  Your 7-7-7 timeline is very doable.....I just haven’t put my seal,of approval on it yet. I’m still mulling over Rev Mans timeline.....all seals, trumpets, and bowls into the second half of the week.  That one really shocked me.

You do know what Jesus said - when those living in Judea SEE the abomination, they are to FLEE. Instantly! Right? So where is this in Revelation? It is in 12:6. Therefore Rev. 12:6 is perhaps two seconds AFTER they have seen the abomination. So work back verse by verse from 12:6 to the first main timeline events: seals, trumpets, vials: you will back up to the 7th vial. I maintain that it sounds in heaven to mark that moment on earth when the man of sin declares he is God.

[Spock]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You do know what Jesus said - when those living in Judea SEE the abomination, they are to FLEE. Instantly! Right? So where is this in Revelation? It is in 12:6. Therefore Rev. 12:6 is perhaps two seconds AFTER they have seen the abomination. So work back verse by verse from 12:6 to the first main timeline events: seals, trumpets, vials: you will back up to the 7th vial. I maintain that it sounds in heaven to mark that moment on earth when the man of sin declares he is God.

I’m glad you brought this up....you see the AOD at Rev 12:6.

i see the rapture at 12:5! 

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."fnAnd her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

So, does this mean the rapture may possibly be just before the midpoint of the week, just before the AOD, just before God unleashes his wrath in the form of the trumpets and bowls? 

Remember, this was the whole purpose of this thread to explore that possibility...a mid Trib rapture!  As you know, some people do believe the trumpets won’t begin until the AOD, and if You can agree the 6th seal can occur just before the midpoint of the week rather than just before the week,  is it possible to have a mid point rapture? I’m not asking if you believe that can happen, but rather is it possible through scripture to defend that position? 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Spock

[iamlamad]

45 minutes ago, Spock said:

I’m glad you brought this up....you see the AOD at Rev 12:6.

i see the rapture at 12:5! 

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."fnAnd her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

So, does this mean the rapture may possibly be just before the midpoint of the week, just before the AOD, just before God unleashes his wrath in the form of the trumpets and bowls? 

Remember, this was the whole purpose of this thread to explore that possibility...a mid Trib rapture!  As you know, some people do believe the trumpets won’t begin until the AOD, and if You can agree the 6th seal can occur just before the midpoint of the week rather than just before the week,  is it possible to have a mid point rapture? I’m not asking if you believe that can happen, but rather is it possible through scripture to defend that position? 

No, sorry, but good exegesis would make the first 5 verses about JESUS, not about the church. The "woman" is Israel. The Messiah came from Israel. The picture painted or drawn is of Virgo...which of course was created to represent Mary.  Jesus was born of Mary. How could you even hint that the church was born of Mary? This is the entire life of Christ in ONE VERSE. 

What did Jesus say to me about it?  "This chapter is about the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the second half of the week......I chose to show John what the Dragon did when I was a young child. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John." 

No, I DON'T see the AOD in verse 6. The AOD must come seconds BEFORE verse  6. I backed up verse by verse to find a marker. Jesus said it would be "clearly marked." He also said I could find the entire week "clearly marked." At that moment I knew why: God used the same marker beginning, midpoint and ending. 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by iamlamad