Spock Posted March 7, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, iamlamad said: No, sorry, but good exegesis would make the first 5 verses about JESUS, not about the church. The "woman" is Israel. The Messiah came from Israel. The picture painted or drawn is of Virgo...which of course was created to represent Mary. Jesus was born of Mary. How could you even hint that the church was born of Mary? This is the entire life of Christ in ONE VERSE. What did Jesus say to me about it? "This chapter is about the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the second half of the week......I chose to show John what the Dragon did when I was a young child. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John." No, I DON'T see the AOD in verse 6. The AOD must come seconds BEFORE verse 6. I backed up verse by verse to find a marker. Jesus said it would be "clearly marked." He also said I could find the entire week "clearly marked." At that moment I knew why: God used the same marker beginning, midpoint and ending. The verb used in 12:5 to show how the male child went to heaven is HARPAZO. Care to guess where you have seen that verse used before? 1 Thess 4:17...the classic rapture passage. It means, snatched up, caught up, suddenly. Jesus was not caught up to Heaven. The verbs used to describe Christ going up never used harpazo. Even john wrote in john 20:17 a different Greek verb....translated ascended. In fact John wrote 12 other times in the book of Revelation the same Greek verb meaning translated ASCEND but for some reason chose the verb HARPAZO in 12:5. Coincidence brother? I think not. Our God is PRECISE, after all HE inspired the words. He chose HARPAZO so we could identify that verse with 1 Thess 4:17. John even used the Greek verb translated ASCEND when describing the two witnesses going back up to Heaven in 11:12 (“they went up” , were not SNATCHED UP). John Did not use HARPAZO because.....they were NOT SNATCHED UP OR CAUGHT UP. SO, who do we know was SNATCHED UP OR CAUGHT UP? THE CHURCH! The body of Christ. If that isn’t enough proof for you, if you say that only is referencing Jesus and not his body....was Jesus snatched up to Heaven AFTER HE WAS BORN? Nope. Why do I ask that? CONTEXT MYBROTHER CONTEXT! Look at verses 3-5 of chapter 12. You have this great red dragon licking his chops seeking to DEVOUR THE MALE CHILD. Notice, as soon as the male child was born......you say this is only about Jesus.....the verse says “and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.” Question: Was Jesus snatched up to Heaven immediately after being born? Nope, no way. (I already shown you he wasn’t snatched up even when he ascended, but the context here is not after his crucifixion, but rather the male child’s BIRTH...it is when he was born, “she gave birth to a son.”) But the Body of Christ, upon its birth (fullness) , will be snatched up. Conclusion: 12:5 does describe the rapture better than describing anyone else. Edited March 7, 2019 by Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted March 7, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,205 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 7, 2019 5 hours ago, Spock said: Hi Spock, So can you please tell us who is the mother giving birth to this Child? And will the Body of Christ sit on God`s throne? `And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.` (Rev. 12: 5) regards, Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted March 7, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Spock, So can you please tell us who is the mother giving birth to this Child? And will the Body of Christ sit on God`s throne? `And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.` (Rev. 12: 5) regards, Marilyn. The woman = Israel. I like this argument.... Therefore, given the symbolic parallels between the description of the woman of Revelation 12:1and Israel of Genesis 37:9 as well as the intentional verbal allusion to Isaiah 66:7, where the woman is clearly the nation of Israel, “Zion,” the conclusion that best fits the evidence is that when the scene of Revelation 12 opens up, the woman primarily represents Israel of the Old Testament in travail.98 Yet it is entirely possible that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is also partially in view, but only secondarily. Recognizing that the woman is a symbol and not merely an historical individual, it seems most probable that the woman primarily represents the true, elect, and faithful remnant of Israel of both the Old and New Testaments. That is, she is the body of Israel incorporate, whose members are not merely the physical seed of Jacob, but that smaller, spiritual “Israel within Israel” which Paul calls the “remnant chosen by grace” (Rom 11:5). This does not preclude the possibility that the symbol includes a second referent with Mary as the mother of Jesus fulfilling historically some aspect of the vision.92 It does, however, suggest that the primary significance of the symbol is the Israelite community of faith. Edited March 7, 2019 by Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted March 7, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,205 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 7, 2019 34 minutes ago, Spock said: The woman = Israel. I like this argument.... Therefore, given the symbolic parallels between the description of the woman of Revelation 12:1and Israel of Genesis 37:9 as well as the intentional verbal allusion to Isaiah 66:7, where the woman is clearly the nation of Israel, “Zion,” the conclusion that best fits the evidence is that when the scene of Revelation 12 opens up, the woman primarily represents Israel of the Old Testament in travail.98 Yet it is entirely possible that Mary, the mother of Jesus, is also partially in view, but only secondarily. Hi Spock, Agree, as to Israel. Now to the second question, if you don`t mind - `And will the Body of Christ sit on God`s throne? `And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.` (Rev. 12: 5) Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted March 7, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Spock, Agree, as to Israel. Now to the second question, if you don`t mind - `And will the Body of Christ sit on God`s throne? `And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.` (Rev. 12: 5) Marilyn. Let God’s word answer that in Rev 2.... 26And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like potterya —just as I have received authority from My Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted March 7, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Spock, So can you please tell us who is the mother giving birth to this Child? And will the Body of Christ sit on God`s throne? `And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.` (Rev. 12: 5) regards, Marilyn. Marilyn, The wording is practically identical.... Rev 12: 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. Those are practically the same words in Rev 2 ....... Rev 2:26: I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter....... Edited March 7, 2019 by Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted March 7, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,205 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Spock said: Let God’s word answer that in Rev 2.... 26And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like potterya —just as I have received authority from My Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. Hi Spock, Yes I`m all for scripture interpreting scripture. So we see that the overcomers have authority over the nations. However whose throne? The Father`s throne or the Son`s? `To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21) And God`s word tell us that the Father`s throne is above all. The Father `seated Him at His right hand ...FAR ABOVE ALL. ` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21) The Child was caught up to God AND TO HIS THRONE. (Rev. 12: 5) This `Child` went to the Father`s throne, and only Jesus went there, as scripture tells us. The Body of Christ is not destined for the Father`s throne but the Son`s. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted March 7, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) Okay, if no mor questions about Rev 12:5, now I think you are ready to understand where I am going with this and why I started this thread....called Mid Trib rapture anyone? My question to all of you is simply this....is this timeline possible? Lets look at Rev 11-13 1. Rev 11 is mostly about God’s two witnesss and their time on Earth doing their thing for 1260 days 2. Rev 13 is mostly about Satan’s two witnesss and them doing their thing for 1260 days. LOOK AT THE SYMMETRY.........it just hit me today....... 3. Rev 12, which happens to be smack dab in the middle. So, what does Rev 12 reveal? A. Rapture...12:5 B. Abomination of desolation. You can infer this by reading 12:6, the Jews fleeing in the wildnerness So, just looking at these three chapters and noticing the symmetry and then seeing what is in the middle is now making me ask myself.....could the rapture be just before the AOD rather than just before the peace treaty that commences the 70th week? Of course this assumes the following: A. The two witnesses do their thing in the first half of the week....I believe they do and can show my proof later. B. The rapture is in 12:5....I think I have shown my proof for this C. The AOD is in chapter 12.....I think I have shown that D. The two evil beasts do their thing in the second half of the week, probably when Satan takes possession of the AC. I know I will still have to analyze the rest of scripture to see if it can fit this timeline, but I now am adding a Mid Trib possible rapture filter to my study and readings of the Word. And of course, if you strongly disagree with a Mid Trib rapture, please feel free to share why? I have no agenda here; I just want to study, analyze, and ask questions before I draw any further conclusions. Disclaimer: I know my pre Trib family might be disappointed in me questioning the pre Trib rapture but for now, all I’m doing is QUESTIONING. Show me the error of my thinking here and “I’ll be back....” Edited March 7, 2019 by Spock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted March 7, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,205 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Spock said: But the Body of Christ, upon its birth (fullness) , will be snatched up. Hi Spock, Just a comment to think on. When the Body of Christ comes to its fullness, it is described as such - `...till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect (mature) MAN, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.` And that I don`t think describes a baby just been born, do you? Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted March 7, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,205 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 7, 2019 34 minutes ago, Spock said: B. The rapture is in 12:5....I think I have shown my proof for this Hi Spock, No bro, you have not shown proof that the Body of Christ will be on the Father`s throne, or that it is described as a baby being born. A little more thought is needed I think. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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