Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

The writers of the various posts on this thread have inspired me to write the second AXIOM on Revelation:

AXIOM 2 on Revelation:

ANY theory that does not include the understanding that "the book" in Rev. 5 is a legal document created in heaven and about planet earth and incorporate into that theory the following facts is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong:

1. Neither God nor Satan can begin anything written on or about a seal before that seal can be legally opened. 

2. The purpose of the seals are to PREVENT either God or Satan from opening the book and beginning the events written IN the book - such as any trumpet judgment. 

3. Once a seal is opened, then what is written about that seal can legally begin.

4. The seals are numbered for their proper order. Any theory that attempts to rearrange what John has numbered for sequencing will be wrong.

5. Because the seals are sealing the book, nothing written in Revelation after the 7th seal [what is written INSIDE the book] can possibly come to pass before all the seals are opened so that the book can be opened. Therefore, any theory that moves a seal to align with a trumpet or a vial will be proven wrong. What we read in Revelation after the 7th seal is opened is what is written INSIDE the book: the trumpet judgments are written inside the book.

6. Neither God nor Satan could legally take the book and open the seals. It would have to be a man from the human race. Further, it would have to be a man who could redeem mankind - a man who could escape death and rise again - and escape from hell. 

7. There was a time when Jesus Christ was NOT found worthy to take the book and open the seals. He BECAME worthy once He fulfilled what was required to redeem mankind. 

For the readers, none of this is written in black and white, but it becomes obvious to a diligent student of Revelation from what IS written and simply logic.  The book opened [so that what is written inside can come to pass] is what will dethrone Satan as God or prince of this world. Since this book is about legal affairs on earth, it is the lease document of earth. 

Once these principles are understood, false theories are more obvious.  Nothing [except perhaps what is written as a parenthesis) found written in Revelation after Rev. 8:1 can possibly take place before all seals are opened. It is simply impossible. This means NO TRUMPET judgment, or no vial judgment can possibly take place before all 7 seals are opened so that the book can be opened. 

It should be very obvious then that the earthquake at the 6th seal cannot possibly be the same earthquake as found later in the book. It should be very obvious that the 6th seal cannot in any way be equated with Jesus coming as shown in Rev. 19. 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Spock said:

Well, this will be last post for the day, almost midnight here. This has been a great discussion. Marilyn blew me away with her showing how 3 great earthquakes =1 great earthquake.  I NOW have my assignment set for tomorrow. If somehow she is right, that means the rapture cannot be at the 6th seal because we know it is not Post Trib after God’s wrath. Which means I will have to go back to the drawing board. 

No fear though....I like to be tested and tried with my beliefs. Like I always say, I’m open minded and always read what people write. I don’t believe I have all knowledge, that is for sure. The only beliefs I have that are definitely unshakable are the MAJOR ONES. 

Good night LA and Marilyn. Love and appreciate you  both very much. Iron sharpening iron......

spock

We love you, Spock. We are counting on your logic to see through all the fluff and false theories and learn the truth from the written word of God! 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Half a day, iamlamad. The 2 witnesses finished their witness when they were taken into heaven.  (Rev. 11: 11 & 12) Their testimony will be for 1,20 days. (Rev. 11: 3) They were dead for 3.5 days. So we see there is a half a day to go and that is when the Great earthquake happened. (Rev. 11: 18)

The Lord roars from heaven and the heavens and earth, will shake. (Joel 3: 16) 

Darkness is over the beast`s kingdom, (Rev. 16: 10) and that is precisely when the Lord descends for it will be one day in which there is no light but at evening it shall happen that it will be light.` (Zech. 14: 6 & 7) The people of the earth will see the Lord coming in great power and glory, (brightness of His coming, 2 Thess. 2: ? and in the glory of His angelic army. (2 Thess. 1: 7)

Marilyn.

Since you want to see scripture, I have stated before [maybe not in this thread} that Joel shows us TWO DIFFERENT signs in the sun and moon, and show us they are for different purposes and for a different time.

Joel 2:³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Note carefully: here the moon appears blood red. What does this tell us? It tells us the moon will be VISIBLE. It should be obvious that this is the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord. We see almost the exact wording at the 6th seal.

Rev. 6:¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Now we will look at another sign for another purpose which will happen at another time:

Joel 3:² I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

This verse gives us a time reference: it aligns with the 6th vial where God begins to call the Nations to the battle of Armageddon.

Joel 3:

¹⁵ The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

¹⁶ The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

These verses are showing a different sign: it speaks of total darkness: neither the sun nor the moon will be visible - no, not even a star. It will be the Sign of the Lord's coming as specified in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

Note carefully another TIMING clue: this sign comes after the tribulation of those days, NOT BEFORE. It is the sign of His coming as shown in Rev. 19.  Notice that the moon is reflecting NO LIGHT. Without the sun reflecting from the moon, the moon is invisible. 

Because Rosenthal and Van Kampen did not understand these were TWO DIFFERENT signs, they created a false doctrine that persists today. Take careful note: prewrath doctrine must rearrange most of Revelation! It is without much doubt the worst end time doctrine to be created. 

I asked the question: "How much time between the 7th vial and Jesus' return in chapter 19? "

You answered a half day! I doubt this answer. At the 7th vial the two witnesses are raised back into heaven. What we find written between the 7th vial and His coming in Rev. 19 would be the events written in chapters 17 and 18, and then the marriage and supper. These events will come BETWEEN the 7th vial that ends the week and His coming.

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by iamlamad

[Spock]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have proved over and over the 7th trumpet can't be in the end. But then, I only proved it to myself!  ?
If you believed in John's chronology, it would be proof. Those people in 12:6 that flee are fleeing the abomination that divides the week! Does it not then make sense that the midpoint must be just before 12:6?  

But I get your point: if John drew straws to choose chronology, nothing could be proven. The thing is, I don't think he did.

And I have shown you why I don’t believe the witnesses follow the trumpets.....see rev 11:7-14

here, the two witnesses are killed and then resurrected and then v14 says the “SECOND WOE HAS PASSED, the third woe (7th trumpet) is coming quickly.”

Second woe is the 6th trumpet.

how could they die/resurrect at the 6th trumpet when you say they come onto the scene after the 7th trumpet  (midpoint) and die just before the return of Christ at Armageddon? That makes no sense LAmad. 

The 6th trumpet can’t be both just before the midpoint (what you say) and right when the two witnesses die/resurrect (what the Bible says in rev 11:7-14). 

Case closed. 

[Spock]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Since you want to see scripture, I have stated before [maybe not in this thread} that Joel shows us TWO DIFFERENT signs in the sun and moon, and show us they are for different purposes and for a different time.

Joel 2:³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Note carefully: here the moon appears blood red. What does this tell us? It tells us the moon will be VISIBLE. It should be obvious that this is the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord. We see almost the exact wording at the 6th seal.

Rev. 6:¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Now we will look at another sign for another purpose which will happen at another time:

Joel 3:² I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

This verse gives us a time reference: it aligns with the 6th vial where God begins to call the Nations to the battle of Armageddon.

Joel 3:

¹⁵ The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

¹⁶ The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

These verses are showing a different sign: it speaks of total darkness: neither the sun nor the moon will be visible - no, not even a star. It will be the Sign of the Lord's coming as specified in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

Note carefully another TIMING clue: this sign comes after the tribulation of those days, NOT BEFORE. It is the sign of His coming as shown in Rev. 19.  Notice that the moon is reflecting NO LIGHT. Without the sun reflecting from the moon, the moon is invisible. 

Because Rosenthal and Van Kampen did not understand these were TWO DIFFERENT signs, they created a false doctrine that persists today. Take careful note: prewrath doctrine must rearrange most of Revelation! It is without much doubt the worst end time doctrine to be created. 

I asked the question: "How much time between the 7th vial and Jesus' return in chapter 19? "

You answered a half day! I doubt this answer. At the 7th vial the two witnesses are raised back into heaven. What we find written between the 7th vial and His coming in Rev. 19 would be the events written in chapters 17 and 18, and then the marriage and supper. These events will come BETWEEN the 7th vial that ends the week and His coming.

 

LAmad,

i don’t see an earthquake in Joel 2. Where do you see an EQ in chapter 2?  

In fact, do you see an earthquake in Joel 3?  Where is it? V16 possibly.

So, getting back to the 3 EQs being the same in Rev 6,11,16, how does this have anything to do with that? 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Spock

[iamlamad]

6 minutes ago, Spock said:

LAmad,

i don’t see an earthquake in Joel 2. Where do you see an EQ in chapter 2?  

In fact, do you see an earthquake in Joel 3?  Where is it? V16 possibly.

So, getting back to the 3 EQs being the same in Rev 6,11,16, how does this have anything to do with that? 

Joel 2 gives us the SIGNS people would see BEFORE the 6th seal. The earthquake is an event OF the 6th seal.

Again in Joel 3, he gives us the sign people would see before Jesus returns, as shown in Rev. 19.

Truthfully, I was not looking for an earthquake in either place. Signs are to warn people of a soon coming event. If signs for an event is written in more than one place in scripture, not every part of that sign may written in every verse of mention.

There is something I am not sure about:

Rev. 6:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It is very possible that God's wrath does not start until the first trumpet judgment and the earthquake is a part of the sign of His wrath as much as the cosmic signs. It seems that the cosmic signs follow the earthquake. I am not sure. Isaiah 2 certainly hints strongly that the earthquake is the start of the Day of the Lord. John tells us that His wrath begins with the 6th seal - but then John wrote it with a Greek verb that shows no timing.  I guess until God shows me differently I will continue to say that THE DAY and God's wrath begins with the 6th seal. Once people feel the earthquake (Knowing what Isaiah 2 says) and then see the signs in the sun and moon, they will then KNOW that The DAY has started.

The 3 earthquakes are NOT the same. That theory is myth.

[Spock]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

This is the scripture/s that, I believe nails it for us.

`See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.` (Heb.12: 25 & 26)

And that reference is taken from Haggai.

`For thus says the Lord of hosts: “Once more I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations,.. (Hag.2: 6 & 7)

So we see that God will shake the heaven and earth ONCE more.

Joel 3: 12 - 16

`Let the nations be wakened and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat; (outside Jerusalem) for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; for the winepress is full, the vats overflow - for their wickedness is great.

Multitude, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the Day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

The sun and moon will grow dark, and the stars will diminish their brightness. The Lord also will roar from Zion, (heaven) and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake, but the Lord will be a shelter for His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.`(Joel 3: 12 - 16)

Clearly that is the shaking God is talking about. There in Joel we see when that will happen. God has brought the world`s armies down from Armageddon, to around Jerusalem to the valley of Jehoshaphat. The heavens shake - the sun, moon and stars and the earth also.

 

Rev. 6: 12 - 17

`I looked when he opened the 6^th seal, and behold, there was a Great Earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.

Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Rev. 6: 12 - 17)

 

God is describing that He is shaking the heavens and earth here, and thus places this event at the end of the tribulation, just before the Lord returns in power and great glory with His angelic army.

Hi M.,

okay im fresh and studying scripture.

here are all the references in Revelation showing earthquakes:

rev 6:12 - 6th seal, ( no mention of peals of thunder, flashes of lightning, rumblings)

Rev 8:5 - 7th seal, peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an EQ

rev 11:13 - two witnesses resurrected , 1/10 Jerusalem collapsed, 7000 die (no peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning)

rev 11:19- 7thtrumpet,  flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and an EQ)

rev 16:18- 7th bowl, flashes of lightning , rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great EQ.

NOTE 1: rev 4:5 also see peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning BUT NO EARTHQUAKE, 

NOTE 2:   it appears there is an earthquake whenever you have a resurrection (see Matthew 27:53-54 also) : two witnesses resurrected in Rev 11:13. 

So, I think one can presume there would also be an earthquake when the dead in Christ are resurrected (rev 6 perhaps) and when OT Jews are resurrected (Rev 16 perhaps)

so, does the mentioning of peals of thundering, flashes of lightning, rumblings mean something?  It appears these come from the throne of God, therefore God’s judgment. You don’t see this at the 6th seal or the resurrection of the two witnesss at Rev 11 or Matthew 27....so I guess these 8nstances do not reflect God’s judgment.  

INterestingly, the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and the 7th bowl all have the peals of thunder, rumblings, and flashes of lightning associated with it. God’s judgment! 

Okay let’s ponder all of this.....

 

[Spock]

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Joel 2 gives us the SIGNS people would see BEFORE the 6th seal. The earthquake is an event OF the 6th seal.

Again in Joel 3, he gives us the sign people would see before Jesus returns, as shown in Rev. 19.

Truthfully, I was not looking for an earthquake in either place. Signs are to warn people of a soon coming event. If signs for an event is written in more than one place in scripture, not every part of that sign may written in every verse of mention.

There is something I am not sure about:

Rev. 6:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It is very possible that God's wrath does not start until the first trumpet judgment and the earthquake is a part of the sign of His wrath as much as the cosmic signs. It seems that the cosmic signs follow the earthquake. I am not sure. Isaiah 2 certainly hints strongly that the earthquake is the start of the Day of the Lord. John tells us that His wrath begins with the 6th seal - but then John wrote it with a Greek verb that shows no timing.  I guess until God shows me differently I will continue to say that THE DAY and God's wrath begins with the 6th seal. Once people feel the earthquake (Knowing what Isaiah 2 says) and then see the signs in the sun and moon, they will then KNOW that The DAY has started.

The 3 earthquakes are NOT the same. That theory is myth.

You make me think here....Maybe the wrath doesn’t begin until the 7th seal..see Rev 8:5. Here you have an earthquake associated with peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lghtning. I associate all of these as Judgments from God. You didn’t have these in the 6th seal, but you do in the 7th seal. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Spock

[iamlamad]

39 minutes ago, Spock said:

And I have shown you why I don’t believe the witnesses follow the trumpets.....see rev 11:7-14

here, the two witnesses are killed and then resurrected and then v14 says the “SECOND WOE HAS PASSED, the third woe (7th trumpet) is coming quickly.”

Second woe is the 6th trumpet.

how could they die/resurrect at the 6th trumpet when you say they come onto the scene after the 7th trumpet  (midpoint) and die just before the return of Christ at Armageddon? That makes no sense LAmad. 

The 6th trumpet can’t be both just before the midpoint (what you say) and right when the two witnesses die/resurrect (what the Bible says in rev 11:7-14). 

Case closed. 

⁷ And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

⁸ And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

⁹ And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

¹⁰ And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

¹¹ And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

¹² And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Spock, I must be slow; I see NOTHING in these verses that prove in any way that the two witnesses cannot SHOW UP and begin their testimony right where John is first introduced to them: in verse 3. I see 11:3 as AFTER the first 6 trumpets and BEFORE the 7th trumpet. Perhaps that is what you are meaning: that they cannot be after ALL trumpets - including the 7th.

It seems now it is you that don't read my posts! I have always said they SHOW UP (from heaven) right in that verse of first mention: 11:3. That is after the first 6 trumpets but before the 7th trumpet. 

If you remember, I also said they show up because the man of sin showed up. That is not in the text: it is what God has told me. He - the man of sin - MUST get into Jerusalem before he can enter the temple in Jerusalem. So he arrives - perhaps just 3.5 days before he will enter the temple and cause the abomination that divides the week. Then the two witnesses show up at that time BECAUSE he has entered Jerusalem. 

Now comes the part you have not seen or will not believe: verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis.  I think you are thinking the same thing, but you are not calling it a parenthesis but just saying chapter 11 starts at the midpoint and covers the entire last half of the week. Did I really read you right on that?  What do you make of these verses?

 

¹⁶ And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

¹⁷ Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

¹⁹ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Please tell us: WHEN will these verses take place? Near the end of the week - or right at the midpoint where John is in this chapter? Verse 17 is about the Kingdoms of the world being transferred to Jesus.  Remember, John did not divide his book into chapters, so I should should add these verses:

12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

² And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

³ And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

⁴ And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

⁵ And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

⁶ And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

⁷ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

In other words, these verses follow right after the 7th trumpet. Since you put the 7th trumpet at the end of the week, now you have the fleeing at the end of the week. What then are they fleeing? Perhaps the 7th vial? Perhaps the Battle of Armageddon?  No, we must consider Daniel 9:27  - that it will be the event that stops the daily sacrifices that divides the week. And Jesus said they would flee at the abomination. AS I have written many times, then the abomination must be one or two seconds before 11:6.  Don't take chapter 12 as a different chapter - John did not make chapters! He wrote chapter 12 events as following chapter 11 events. 

What clues do you see that tell you chapter 12 jumps back to the midpoint and does NOT follow the events of chapter 11 in chronology?  If John went from chapter 11 events to  the fleeing without first telling us about the woman, who would know what the woman represented? I think sometimes chapters get into the way of our proper understanding. 

Then again, what clues would you use to show you John started again back at the midpoint at the start of chapter 13? In chapter 14? I agree that these chapters are intermission chapters. I think we both agree on that. Since we have 5 event countdowns starting in these 3 chapters, 11-13, we know they are midpoint chapters. You imagine each chapter start jumps back to the midpoint and takes us to the end, while I imagine that when John takes us to the end, it is with a parenthesis. Do you see we are both seeing the same thing - only coming up with a different theory as to why? 

If 11;4 through 11:13 are indeed a parenthesis, then the 7th trumpet CAN BE the midpoint and 12:6 can be seconds after the midpoint. Again I will make a point: NO ONE (that I have talked with) sees each start of a countdown as finishing that countdown in the verse of mention. In other words, I have never met someone that would insist 11:3 is 42 months after 11:2, and 12:7 is 1260 days after 12:6. Do you get my point? It is only with the two witnesses that you imagine the full 1260 days as taking place in chapter 11. To me that is inconsistent doing something different with one out of five.

Spock, do you understand a parenthesis? Babe Ruth (he died in 1948) became the home run king but was also a strike-out king - because he waited for a pitch he could knock out of the park!  This sentence speaks of Babe's life, but in the parenthesis about his death. I wonder, if you had John's original manuscript (supposing you could read it) without chapter breaks and verses, if you would come to the same conclusions about these three chapters? 

Do you picture chapter 12 as going to the end of the week? I think rather it tells us what the Dragon will be doing right after the midpoint of the week.

Finally, the 6th trumpet is between trumpet 5 and trumpet 7 right where John put it! 

John's Chronology:

Trumpet 6

The man of sin enters Jerusalem with his Gentile armies and the city will be trampled.

The two witnesses show up because the man of sin showed up (in Jerusalem) and will BEGIN their 1260 days of fleeing.

Trumpet 7

The two witnesses flee and they are protected for 3.5 years

Michael goes to war with Satan

The dragon is cast down and goes after the woman then after the remnant.

The Beast rises from the sea and is given 42 months of authority

God gives a warning NOT to take the mark.

This is John's chronology for these chapters.  But one can see it this way ONLY if they see 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis and see most of Rev 13 (after the mention of the 42 month countdown) as a parenthesis. 

Where does the 42 months of trampling end?  At or near the 7th vial that ends the week.

Where does the 1260 days of fleeing end? At or near the 7th vial that ends the week.

Where does the 3.5 years of supernatural feeding and protection end? At or near the 7th vial that ends the week.

Where does the 42 months of Authority end? After the end of the week when Jesus returns.

Why they would you think the time for the two witnesses would be any different?

[iamlamad]

29 minutes ago, Spock said:

Hi M.,

okay im fresh and studying scripture.

here are all the references in Revelation showing earthquakes:

rev 6:12 - 6th seal, ( no mention of peals of thunder, flashes of lightning, rumblings)

Rev 8:5 - 7th seal, peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an EQ

rev 11:13 - two witnesses resurrected , 1/10 Jerusalem collapsed, 7000 die (no peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning)

rev 11:19- 7thtrumpet,  flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and an EQ)

rev 16:18- 7th bowl, flashes of lightning , rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great EQ.

NOTE 1: rev 4:5 also see peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning BUT NO EARTHQUAKE, 

NOTE 2:   it appears there is an earthquake whenever you have a resurrection (see Matthew 27:53-54 also) : two witnesses resurrected in Rev 11:13. 

So, I think one can presume there would also be an earthquake when the dead in Christ are resurrected (rev 6 perhaps) and when OT Jews are resurrected (Rev 16 perhaps)

so, does the mentioning of peals of thundering, flashes of lightning, rumblings mean something?  It appears these come from the throne of God, therefore God’s judgment. You don’t see this at the 6th seal or the resurrection of the two witnesss at Rev 11 or Matthew 27....so I guess these 8nstances do not reflect God’s judgment.  

INterestingly, the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and the 7th bowl all have the peals of thunder, rumblings, and flashes of lightning associated with it. God’s judgment! 

Okay let’s ponder all of this.....

So, I think one can presume there would also be an earthquake when the dead in Christ are resurrected (rev 6 perhaps) and when OT Jews are resurrected (Rev 16 perhaps)  This is certainly my thinking. It is one reason I believe the Old Testament saints will be raised on the last day, at the 7th vial.  

It may well be anything someone is near the throne they hear thunder and flashes of light at any time!