Pax Posted June 1, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 961 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 yod: I assume that you are Jewish? I will be the first to admit that I know very little about the Jewish faith. Except I do know that Jews don't believe in the New Covenant or Testament. They don't believe Jesus was God and that he was on Earth. Aren't Jews still waiting for the first coming of God? How does one logically dicounts the New Testament? I will also make a comment, you say that I am indoctrinated by the Catholic Church. I often get this comment from others when talking apologetics. One must resort to name calling and saying that I am brainwashed when they can't defend their faith. I spent 26 years as a Baptist learning scripture. This was great formation, but it wasn't the fullness of the truth. There is more to Christianity than scripture, and there is tons of evidence to prove this. Bastion: I will put this as simply as I can. The only Christian Church that traces its roots back to the apostles is the Catholic Church. This goes back to 30 a.d. to be specific. History reveals that Christ established ONE Church. "Thou art Peter. and upon this rock I will build my church." (Not Churches, and this is a real problem that Protestants have. As mentioned earlier there are 38,000 Prostestant denominations around the world.) Mathew 16:18 "He promised to be with That church (His Church) until the end of time. "Behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." (Mathew 28:20) "The gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Mathew 16:18). Consequently, that church must be in the world today. But, the only church in existance today that can trace its begining and origin back to Christ is the Roman Catholic Church. Therefore it must be the Church of Christ. But Lutherans, Calvinists, and others say, just as the Donatists did before them, that the Catholic Church preserved the truth of the Christ's doctrine down to a certain period but after that time the true doctrine was corrupted. This supposition, however, refutes itself, for, granting that the Catholic Church was the Church first founded by Christ, as history proves it to have been, then it never could of failed in its mission. Because remember what Mathew 16:18 stated "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades (hell) shall not prevail against it." Thus either the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ or Christianity falls. And lastly if the Catholic Church was essentially corrupted in one of the earlier centuries, how could it be so vitally alive today? And may I add 1.2 Billion strong and growing. Catholicism is the largest religious denomination in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax Posted June 1, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 961 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 horizoneast you keep going back to onlyone scripture verse in 2 Timothy to base this notion of Sola Scriptora on? I will bring up John 21:25 again which states "And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suspose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written." How do you explain this passage in the Bible. If you contend that all we need to know is in the Bible then we must all believe this. This is a problem with Sola Scriptora, one verse in the Bible will say something different from another. You can't pick and choose a verse that agrees with your belief and then discount all the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax Posted June 1, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 961 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 Horizoneast: I think we have come to the end of our argument. I have laid out my reasoning, backed by scripture why the Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth. You have given your best reasoning why the Catholic Church isn't the fullness of the truth. I might also add you haven't answered what Church you believe to be the fullness of the truth? I also never manipulated scripture as you have stated. I used a King James Version (Protestant Bible) to make my points. Anyone reading this thread who has a King James Bible can look up these passages I posted, which were written word by word from the Bible. I will mention to all the readers again that I grew up Protestant, Baptist to be exact. There are many good Protestants that are doing great things. I also believe that many Protestants will go to heaven, but not all. Just like many Catholics will go to heaven, but not all. But Protestants are not getting the fullness of the truth. As Bishop Fulton Sheen once wrote, if everyone knew what the Roman Catholic Church stood for, there wouldn't be 10 people against it. That's the real problem here. There are many lies and misconceptions about the Catholic Church that have been passed down since the Reformation. A Pastor who knows nothing about the Catholic faith will tell his congratation that all Catholics are going to hell, or all Catholics worship Mary, or that all Catholics are guilty of idolitry. All of these are not true and can be easily dispelled. Another problem is that many Catholics don't know the Bible. The basis of the Catholic Church and many of its teaching can be proven in scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Yod-And it is almost as silly to think that the RCC has any ties to the church of Jerusalem. Well, is there a Christian Church which can be traced back to the apostolic day? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yes, but there isn't a religious institution that can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Pax,Jun 1 2005, 01:51 PM yod: I assume that you are Jewish? then you assume wrong. In my teenage years, I was raised to be catholic by a step-mom who meant well. It turned me into an atheist. 15 years later I went on a search for the truth and found that there were lots of things that were either untrue or unprovable about the RCC and it's doctrine. I will be the first to admit that I know very little about the Jewish faith. Except I do know that Jews don't believe in the New Covenant or Testament. They don't believe Jesus was God and that he was on Earth. Aren't Jews still waiting for the first coming of God? How does one logically dicounts the New Testament? The nation of Israel refused the promised King, yes, but had the jews completely rejected Him you would never have heard the name "Jesus" The first church was completely jewish for 100 years. Not a single Catholic as you have been led to believe. And all those guys you call "saint' something or another from that time never converted to another religion. Yeshua did not come to start a new religion. By the Holy Spirit, He brought the nations into the Commonwealth of (spiritual and true) Israel apart from becoming "jewish" through circumcision. I will also make a comment, you say that I am indoctrinated by the Catholic Church. I often get this comment from others when talking apologetics. One must resort to name calling and saying that I am brainwashed when they can't defend their faith. It wasn't meant to be a personal comment. Forgive me. I was referring to the frustration of trying to debate someone who has bought into the whole circular reasoning. "The Catholic Church is right because we say we are right and we've been saying it longer than you have been saying we are wrong" It's crazy. I spent 26 years as a Baptist learning scripture. This was great formation, but it wasn't the fullness of the truth. I can say a big AMEN to that....but probably for different reasons. Look my friend....if you want to know the truth....go back farther than the RCC and find what was there originally. Learn the Bible as a JEWISH book and you will see that much of christianity is cultural misunderstanding because of the rift between jews and gentiles in the early formation of the christian church. It had already appeared in the church at Rome and that's why Shaul spent so much time dealing with the issue in the book of Romans. There is more to Christianity than scripture, and there is tons of evidence to prove this. Yes...there is a lot more to the "christianity" of Roman institutions! There are Inquisitions, Crusades, Institutional bigotry, forced "conversions", ...corrupt Popes, Cardinals, Bishops....contradictory rulings of supposed infallible Councils, murders over disagreement of doctrine, etc, etc, etc, ad naseum. This discussion is not about dead religion or institutions, is it? I will confess to you that this is from the wicked heart of men but you have to realize that these men were the leaders of institutional "christianity" of their day I will put this as simply as I can. The only Christian Church that traces its roots back to the apostles is the Catholic Church. and that is a lie designed to usurp God and "lord it over" the masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax Posted June 1, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 961 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 yod: You never answered my question of why the Jewish faith doesn't acknowledge the new testament. Didn't Paul play a large part in the new Testament? He talks about Jesus Christ over and over and again. Also wasn't Paul a Jew who persucuted early Christians until he was struck by lightening? Then he converted to Christianity. His name was Sol as a Jew and then changed to Paul as he became a Christian. Your right God didn't start a new religion, its just that the Jews stopped with the old Testament. They don't believe that Jesus Christ was God. The Catholic Church started in 33 A.D. and yes you are correct it wasn't called Catholic until later. But do you know what the word Catholic means??? Let me help you, it means Universal. Which means one Universal Church as backed up in scripture. But this is hard for you to believe when you don't accept the New Testament. I'm sorry you grew up with bad Catholicism, there are many in the same boat. But keep posting on here and God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax Posted June 1, 2005 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 961 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/30/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 1, 2005 (edited) horizoneast: I am impressed that you have a Catechism of the Catholic Church. I will type the complete passage. Page 215 #816 states; " The sole Church of Christ (is that) which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it....This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsisits in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."This is what I have been pointing out throughout the whole thread and used scripture to back up. God intended there to be only one True Church, not 38,000 different ones. Something I must clear up is this notion that you must be Catholic to go to heaven. This isn't the case at all. There are elements of truth in many churches, but the fullness of truth lies in the Catholic Church. This has been the central understanding since right after the time of Christ, but this understanding has broadened and deepened through the sacraments , grace, and revelation. So if any person or Catholic states that you can't go heaven unless you are Cathlolic then they are misled. But everyone that does obtain salvation will do it through the Catholic Church. Obviously if you are Catholic you have the help of the Sacraments and graces. If you are an evangelical Christian than you are receiving elements of the truth and you are also receiving some graces through the Catholic Church that will help with salvation. But like faith itself, this is a mystery. Edited June 1, 2005 by Pax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assisi Posted June 1, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 197 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2005 Assisi, No i learned the truth the hard way while on other boards like this one. When my faith was challenged i search the early Church and found that all Catholic beliefs were in place within a generation of the Apostle John. Protestants have helped me confirm my faith. Is that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assisi Posted June 1, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 197 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2005 Assisi, No i learned the truth the hard way while on other boards like this one. When my faith was challenged i search the early Church and found that all Catholic beliefs were in place within a generation of the Apostle John. Protestants have helped me confirm my faith. Is that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assisi Posted June 1, 2005 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 197 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/08/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2005 Assisi, No i learned the truth the hard way while on other boards like this one. When my faith was challenged i search the early Church and found that all Catholic beliefs were in place within a generation of the Apostle John. Protestants have helped me confirm my faith. Is that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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