The Hebrews Roots Movement

[BibleGuy]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 1:28 PM, Resurrection Priest said:

Hi BibleGuy.

Wasn't the whole Tabernacle/Priesthood/Feasts a prophecy, and wasn't it all symbolic of Christ to come?  The "lamb" symbolized Christ.  Every priest symbolized Christ, in the way that the priest "made atonement" for the sinner, etc. etc.  Every Feast was a prophecy of what Messiah would do.  It was all symbolism. 

QUESTION:  How long do you believe the Aaronic priesthood order will continue?  Til the Glorious Return of Messiah? 

Through the Millennium?  Forever? 

John said he "saw no Temple" in the New Jerusalem.  It does seem that - at some point, the Temple on earth will be no more. 

Personally, I believe "heaven and earth will pass away" at the Glorious Return.  I believe the 7 last plagues will destroy all life on planet earth, and possibly our solar system as well.  The earth with all its works "will be burned up"  which means the cycle of day/night will end - at least for some period of time, until Yeshua heals/restores it (or even creates it new again). 

  Hebrews 1:10-12 [God the Father speaking to His Son]  “You Lord, In the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands;  they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like clothing; like a cloak you will roll them up, and like clothing they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end.”

So this cannot be just "the land" promised to Abraham.  This is "the earth, and the heavens" that were the work of the LORD "in the beginning".

QUESTION:  Are you one of the folks who say the Letter to the Hebrews should not be included with the Apostolic writings?

“The sky receded as a scroll which is rolled up” (Rev.6:14).  (This is at the 7th Trumpet of Revelation.)

2 Peter 3:10  “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

Mark 13:31  “Heaven and earth will pass away, . . .”  (Lk 21:33, Matt. 24:36).

 

 

 

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"Wasn't the whole Tabernacle/Priesthood/Feasts a prophecy, and wasn't it all symbolic of Christ to come? The "lamb" symbolized Christ.  "

Yes.  I can accept that.  He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), spoken by John the Baptist whose ministry upholds "the word of our God forever" (Is.40:8).

And the word of God includes TORAH (e.g., Dt. 1:3;5:327-33;etc.). 

Thus, Christ is the Lamb....AND.....Torah continues "forever".

Paul agrees, Torah continues "from now and forever" (referencing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

 

"Every priest symbolized Christ"

In a way...yes.  But, Christ was NOT a Levite.....so don't take the symbolism too far.

 

" in the way that the priest "made atonement" for the sinner, etc. etc.  Every Feast was a prophecy of what Messiah would do.  It was all symbolism. "

Ok!

But the symbols/shadows CONTINUE (present tense in Col.2:17 and Heb.10:1 in reference to the ONGOING PRESENT TENSE shadow-function).

And, Dt. 30:1-8 confirms we will again obey 100% of ALL Torah.....

So sure, Jesus fulfills feasts....but FULFILL does not mean ABOLISH....as I think you already know.

 

"QUESTION:  How long do you believe the Aaronic priesthood order will continue?  Til the Glorious Return of Messiah? "

I dare to believe God actually means what He says....and Dt. 7:9 gives us a MINIMUM of 1000 generations from the time of Moses for the duration of all Torah....

And we're not even CLOSE to fulfilling 1000 generations since Moses!

We've got a LONG way to go, baby!

I submit we are still VERY VERY early in human history.....

 

"Through the Millennium?  Forever? "\

Through the Millennium?  Probably....especially if you take the sacrifice-laden Temple rebuilt in Zec. 6 and Eze. 40-47 as the Millennial temple.

 

Forever?

Well, technically, "forever" translates a Hebrew word/s which can mean "ongoingly", but not necessarily ongoing for infinite future time.

 

And, if Rev. 21:22 means there is no temple ANYWHERE on the planet at that time, then this may be the time (Rev. 21:22) when the Torah of Moses will finally "pass" (Mt.5:18).

After all, Mt. 5:18 confirms that ALL the Torah and Prophets are in force until sometime AFTER heaven/earth pass away....and heaven/earth evidently pass away in Rev. 21:1.....

Thus, everything from Rev. 21:1 and forward, well, that might be the post-Torah-of-Moses era.

 

On the other hand, maybe Rev. 21:22 only means there is no temple in the NEW JERUSALEM....yet there still might be a temple OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem elsewhere in Israel.....

in which case, Rev. 21:1 (and following) might still be an era in which the Torah of Moses still fully applies....

I guess we don't have too much data to figure everything out!

 

"John said he "saw no Temple" in the New Jerusalem.  It does seem that - at some point, the Temple on earth will be no more. "

Unless the "saw no temple" merely refers to no temple "in it" (Rev. 21:22), i.e., in the New Jerusalem.

After all, the PLANET is evidently larger than the New Jerusalem....so there could still be a temple somewhere OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem, yet still on the planet.

 

"Personally, I believe "heaven and earth will pass away" at the Glorious Return.  I believe the 7 last plagues will destroy all life on planet earth, and possibly our solar system as well.  The earth with all its works "will be burned up"  which means the cycle of day/night will end - at least for some period of time, until Yeshua heals/restores it (or even creates it new again). "

Probably not.  After all, Abraham has STILL not yet inherited the land promised to him!

And God WILL uphold His promises!

Thus, Dt. 30:1-8 is yet FUTURE....and OUR future inheritance in that promised land is ALSO future (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29;Eph.3:6).

So, if the entire planet is destroyed....well....then there's no more "promised land" to inherit, as described in detail in the Torah (e.g., from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates....)

 

"they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like clothing; like a cloak you will roll them up, and like clothing they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never end.”"

Yes...but they will perish MUCH LATER....Jesus still need to return and rule over the nations for 1000 years...and WE still need to inherit the land and fulfill ALL the great future prophecies for Israel in the land!

 

"So this cannot be just "the land" promised to Abraham.  This is "the earth, and the heavens" that were the work of the LORD "in the beginning". "\

And, given that the LAND-PROMISE is still unfulfilled....that's all the more reason to believe that the planet will NOT cease to exist (or be replaced) at the glorious return of Christ.

 

"QUESTION:  Are you one of the folks who say the Letter to the Hebrews should not be included with the Apostolic writings?"

Absolutely not!  I UPHOLD ALL BIBLE!  (I am the BIBLE GUY...…..)

The opposition to the book of Hebews comes, at least in part, from bogus and sloppy and incorrect theology put forward by Monte Judah a number of years ago....

And it's UNNECESSARY....EVERYTHING in the book of Hebrews is true.

There are not too many good scholars in the "Hebrew Roots" or "Messianic" crowds...

Although J.K. Mckee and Tim Hegg are very good on most things....they do NOT reject the book of Hebrews.  And they are very good scholars.

 

And, Rev. 6:14 sounds more like an opened portal...not a complete annihilation of the planet and solar system.

 

"Mark 13:31  “Heaven and earth will pass away, . . .”  (Lk 21:33, Matt. 24:36)."

Pretty sure you meant Mt. 24:35....

But yes....again, this could be POST-millennial, thus leaving room for a fully Torah-obedient Millennium....

 

"2 Peter 3:10  “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”"

Yes, but this leads to an interesting problem....how do we reconcile all the Revelation data with the Prophets, particularly Is. 66?

For example, if the New Heaven and earth of Rev. 21:1 is the SAME as that in Is.66:22....and IF Is. 66:21-24 is a description of that new heaven/earth, then we may STILL have functioning Torah-sanctioned Levitical activity in that new heaven/earth.

After all, the FIRE of Is. 66:15-16 may be the fire of 2 Pe. 3:10....in which case Peter's description is severe....but does NOT entail cessation of the planet's existence, given ongoing corresponding detail in Is. 66.

 

Interesting food for thought!

blessings...

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by BibleGuy
typo

[BibleGuy]

3 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

The New Jerusalem is 345 miles on each side (depending on translation), so the New Jerusalem, when it descends will cover the entire land area promised to "the Seed of Abraham". 

If "THE Seed" - one Seed, is Yeshua Messiah, that fits.  He was the ONLY "seed" of Abraham to fulfill all the terms of the Sinai Covenant, therefore He will inherit "the land". 

We then inherit - "in Him".  He extends His inheritance to us.  We get to live in His New Jerusalem and His Kingdom, in His land. 

Galatians 3:29 "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (NIV)

The promise Covenant to Abraham was a prophecy of Yeshua the Christ. 

Big IF there. 

If the "Olive Tree" of Romans Eleven represents "Israel", then some are "broken off" (cut off) for unbelief, and some Gentiles are grafted into that tree because of their belief in Jesus as Messiah.  And yes the newly grafted Gentiles should not get proud because they can be "broken off" too. 

When Paul said, "all Israel will be saved", that "Israel" will consist of those who "belong to Christ" by faith.  He could just as easily have said, "only Israel will be saved".  One either belongs to Christ, or doesn't.   The "Root" of the Olive Tree "is holy".  We draw life from that Root.  That Root is Yeshua Messiah. 

Looks like: "The calculated flying distance from Baghdad to Tel Aviv is equal to 566 miles".....

So, looks like your calculated New Jerusalem would NOT cover the entire promised land.

If this is correct, then it leaves open the possibility of a functioning Temple with sacrifices, outside the New Jerusalem....

"If "THE Seed" - one Seed, is Yeshua Messiah, that fits.  He was the ONLY "seed" of Abraham to fulfill all the terms of the Sinai Covenant, therefore He will inherit "the land"."

Paul gives MANY applications to "the seed" in Galatians.  We are ALSO the seed (Gal.3:29) and "heirs according to the promise"....what promise?  The promised LAND! (Ge. 12:1-3).

We WILL, therefore, inherit the land....so your eschatology must make room for this.

Somebody even wrote a book, once, talking about the "four seeds" in that passage.

"The promise Covenant to Abraham was a prophecy of Yeshua the Christ"

Well...ok....but it includes the LAND PROMISE...as JESUS likewise agreed (Mt.5:5)….and as Paul agrees too (Gal.3:29;Eph.2:12;3:6).

"If the "Olive Tree" of Romans Eleven represents "Israel", then some are "broken off" (cut off) for unbelief, and some Gentiles are grafted into that tree because of their belief in Jesus as Messiah.  And yes the newly grafted Gentiles should not get proud because they can be "broken off" too. 

When Paul said, "all Israel will be saved", that "Israel" will consist of those who "belong to Christ" by faith.  He could just as easily have said, "only Israel will be saved".  One either belongs to Christ, or doesn't.   The "Root" of the Olive Tree "is holy".  We draw life from that Root.  That Root is Yeshua Messiah."

 

That sounds good!

blessings...

 

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

On 11/22/2019 at 5:20 PM, BibleGuy said:

Rather, Is. 61 may be viewed as simply describing various characteristics of the Restored Israelite peoples.....NOT characteristics merely of the priests alone....in which case your deduction falls apart.

I don't think the verses I quoted can be dismissed as "simply describing . . the Restored Israelite Peoples".  The people described are called "priests".  This prophecy promises them "a double portion". 

Isaiah 61:6-7  "but you will be called 'priests of Yahweh' and be addressed as 'ministers of our God'. You will feed on the wealth of nations, you will supplant them in their glory. To make up for your shame, you will receive double; instead of disgrace, shouts of joy will be their lot; yes, they will have a double portion in their country and everlasting joy will be theirs." (NJB) 

[Resurrection Priest]

1 hour ago, BibleGuy said:

So sure, Jesus fulfills feasts....but FULFILL does not mean ABOLISH....as I think you already know.

Nobody said "abolish".  If "all flesh" will go up to worship the LORD from one Sabbath to another in the New Earth, then the Feasts are still there - in the New Earth (Isa. 66:23).   

I just don't believe we will be killing animals (or that Levite priests will be killing animals).  "Death" will be abolished.  It will be "the last enemy" destroyed.  Or do you believe only humans will not die in Messiah's coming kingdom? 

[Resurrection Priest]

How would a few Levite priests be able to serve the entire population of the saved in the Kingdom? 

Israel was a small nation.  The tribe of Levi was 1/12th of the nation.  The family of Aaron was 1/3rd of that, and male descendants would be half (approximately) of that.  That number would be decreased significantly because only those faithful in heart will be saved for the Kingdom of Messiah.  Not many to serve the entire population of the saved from 6000 years. 

On the other hand, if "the priesthood" were "the firstborn" Melchizedek priesthood, there would be a large population of priests.  They could even rotate, serving only couple weeks a year. 

[Resurrection Priest]

re:  the word "changed"

The priesthood is the ONLY THING that is specifically described as “changed” under the New Covenant.  

Hebrews 7:12 “Any change in the priesthood must mean a change in the Law as well.” (NJB)

3346 metati,qhmi metatithemi {met-at-ith'-ay-mee}
Meaning:  1) to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other) 1a) to transfer  (move from one place to another)

Was "the Law" moved to a "new location" ?  No.

Many have argued that the word translated as “changed” in the English, can mean only a change of location, but the word (3346) is translated as “turned into” in Jude 1:4.

"who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jud 1:4 NKJ)  One thing is turned into another, or substituted for another. 
 

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

The point is made by the writer of Hebrews that the Levite priests served only the copy, the prophecy, the type. 

Hebrews 9:24 "It is not as though Christ had entered a man-made sanctuary which was merely a model of the real one; he entered heaven itself, so that he now appears in the presence of God on our behalf." (NJB)

The Tabernacle/Temple was definitely a prophecy/type of the True Tabernacle - Heaven itself.

Hebrews 9:13 "For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh [ritual pruity] (NKJ).

But in the Kingdom, we will not BE FLESH.  So why would we still need ceremonies to cleanse the flesh? 

1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." (NAS)

[Resurrection Priest]

BibleGuy noted that  Mal.3:4 is yet future.  I agree. 

Malachi 3:2 “But who can endure the day when he comes? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire, like the soapmaker's lye. 3 He will sit, testing and purifying the silver; he will purify the sons of Levi, refining them like gold and silver, so that they can bring offerings to ADONAI uprightly. 4 Then the offering of Y'hudah and Yerushalayim will be pleasing to ADONAI, as it was in the days of old, as in years gone by.” (CJB)

Rachel comments:

Once the LORD has purified these “sons of Levi” they will bring offerings that will please ADONAI.  Was the LORD ever “pleased” with the blood of sheep and goats?  No.  He wanted obedience with humility.  “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise” (Psa 51:17 NAS).

Micah 6:7 “Will the Lord accept thousands of rams, or ten thousands of fat goats? . . . 8 Has it not been told thee, O man, what is good? or what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justice, and love mercy, and be ready to walk with the Lord thy God?” (LXA)

Hebrews 10:4-5 “Bulls' blood and goats' blood are incapable of taking away sins, and that is why he said, on coming into the world: You wanted no sacrifice or cereal offering, but you gave me a body.” (NJB)

The Apostolic Writings give several examples of "spiritual sacrifices" which we can offer during this age.  These sacrifices are "pleasing" to God.

    1. praise and thanks to God (Heb. 13:15)    2. our lives dedicated to God (2 Tim. 4:6)  
    3. the service of faith (Phil. 2:17)                4. the bodies of martyrs (Rom. 12:1)  
    5. gifts to the poor (Phil. 4:18)    
    6. visiting the sick or those in prison (Matt. 25:34-40)      
    7. offerings in support of the ministry (1Cor. 9:13)

 

[Resurrection Priest]

BibleGuy,

You sited Deuteronomy 30:1-8 as "yet future" and a "proof" of the continuance of the Levite priesthood into the Kingdom of Messiah.

How so?  I can agree the promise was future, and is yet future, for "Israel" the Olive Tree of Romans Eleven (which was not about DNA, but rather about faith).  I don't see the Levites specifically mentioned in this passage. 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

BibleGuy,

Just curious.  How would the High Priest be chosen for the future literal physical Temple, with literal physical Levite priests? 

If Yeshua cannot be High Priest of the literal Temple because He is not Levite, then who would be High Priest?  Go back to Aaron?  Because he was first?  Phinehas?  Or to Zadok, because he was faithful?  Or possibly to the last descendant of the line?

It looks like only Zadok priests are allowed to "'come near Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer to Me the fat and the blood,' says the Lord GOD.  'They shall enter My sanctuary, and they shall come near  My table to minister to Me, and they shall keep My charge.'"   Ezekiel 44:15-16. 

Or is the whole prophecy symbolic - pointing forward to the work of the Melchizedek priests in the future Kingdom of Messiah.  In which case, Yeshua Messiah will be BOTH priest and prince  (and sin offering too). 

It is most interesting that "The alter was of wood".  "This is the table that is before the LORD"  Ezek 41:22.  This is the only article of furniture described in the "inner Temple".  [The cross was wood.]