The Hebrews Roots Movement

[BibleGuy]

8 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I don't think the verses I quoted can be dismissed as "simply describing . . the Restored Israelite Peoples".  The people described are called "priests".  This prophecy promises them "a double portion". 

Isaiah 61:6-7  "but you will be called 'priests of Yahweh' and be addressed as 'ministers of our God'. You will feed on the wealth of nations, you will supplant them in their glory. To make up for your shame, you will receive double; instead of disgrace, shouts of joy will be their lot; yes, they will have a double portion in their country and everlasting joy will be theirs." (NJB) 

Hey there!

I think you missed my point.  Let me try a better.

There are INDIVIDUAL descriptions...and there are CORPORATE descriptions.....

These two forms of description are DISTINCT!

INDIVIDUAL descriptions describe characteristics which apply to each individual.

CORPORATE descriptions describe characteristics which apply to the corporate whole, but NOT necessarily to each individual in the group.

 

So, unless you can show that Is. 61:6-7 is NOT a corporate description, then you've presupposed (without justification) that Is.61:6-7 is not a corporate description.

And besides, Is. 66:21 confirms that SOME (not ALL!) of the Israelites will be functioning Levitical priests...

Thus, Is. 66:21 confirms the CORPORATE description of Is.61:6-7.

 

"The people described are called 'priests' ".

Rather, we are told that SOME of the people will be priests.....thus, the corporate peoples are properly referenced as "priests", because SOME will be priests.

Surely you won't claim that every single Israelite in restored Israel will be a Levitical priest...right?

After all, Is. 61 does NOT refer EXCLUSIVELY to priests....it refers to restored Israel in general...including reference to OFFSPRING (Is.61:9)...and offspring includes FEMALES....and females are not priests!

So again, we've confirmed that Is.61 is a CORPORATE description, not an individual description of characteristics which apply to every last individual in the group.

 

And again, assuming priests do not have inheritance in the land, we can take Is. 61:7 as evidence that the described double-portion-land-inheritance does NOT refer to the priests individually, but to the Israelite peoples corporately, because SOME of the Israelites (i.e., the non-Levites) will enjoy a double-portion-land-inheritance.

 

Same thing in Rev. 20:6....a CORPORATE description merely requires that SOME (not ALL) of those in the first resurrection are priests...

Is. 66:21 may be taken as confirmation that SOME of the peoples in Rev.20:6 are priests, not all.

 

Again, the future temple (Eze.40-47), if this is the temple functioning after the 1st resurrection, is further proof that SOME (not all!) of the Israelites are priests.

Remember? Only the specific subset of Levites who are "sons of Zadok" may serve as functioning priests at that future time (Eze.40:46;43:19;44:15;48:11).

Again, this may help confirm the CORPORATE description in Is. 61 and Rev. 20.

 

CONCLUSION:  The corporate description option makes better sense of the data on the table here.

 

Have any other considerations to throw into the mix?

 

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

8 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Nobody said "abolish".  If "all flesh" will go up to worship the LORD from one Sabbath to another in the New Earth, then the Feasts are still there - in the New Earth (Isa. 66:23).   

I just don't believe we will be killing animals (or that Levite priests will be killing animals).  "Death" will be abolished.  It will be "the last enemy" destroyed.  Or do you believe only humans will not die in Messiah's coming kingdom? 

Howdy....

 

When Isaiah refers to SABBATH (Is.66:23), the safest contextual assumption is that the Torah-obedient Torah-minded Torah-upholding Torah-sanctioned prophet Isaiah is referring to SABBATH TORAH, which requires SACRIFICES (Nu.28:9-10).

 

When Isaiah refers to LEVITES (Is.66:21), the safest contextual assumption is that the Torah-obedient Torah-minded Torah-upholding Torah-sanctioned prophet Isaiah is referring to LEVITICAL TORAH, which requires SACRIFICES (just read Leviticus for proof that LEVITES are known for sacrificing animals!)

 

"I just don't believe we will be killing animals"

Of course not.  The sanctioned PRIESTS would be doing the killing....not you.

Hey look:  You just used a CORPORATE description there!  

You said "we"....but you weren't really referring to EVERYONE of us....but just to the animal-sacrificing priests who would be among us, right?

See how that works?

 

" "Death" will be abolished.  It will be "the last enemy" destroyed. "

Yes, but that could be abolition of death INSIDE the New Jerusalem....not abolition of all death everywhere.

After all, we see there are still murderers OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem (Rev.22:15)….and murder implies death.

 

Yes, SOME animals will not be killing each other any more....(Is.65:25)….but maybe because the animals INSIDE the New Jerusalem domain are transformed into something different....

After all, their diets are changed (Is.65:25)….so evidently their behavior patterns are changed too.

Maybe they'll even speak, like Balaam's donkey!

 

"Or do you believe only humans will not die in Messiah's coming kingdom? "

Well, redeemed humans will not die...we will be in our resurrection bodies, evidently with flight-capacity to boot! (Is.60:8)

Perhaps we need flight-capacity to access the VERY HIGH ALTITUDE interior regions of the New Jerusalem.

After all, accessing a city that is several hundred miles HIGH...well....that's going to require new powers!

And arguably new physics will be needed too....or perhaps just new technology not presently known....because conventional structural engineering could not sustain the weight of a building that tall.

 

But, there will still be nations of people in regular bodies....even Israelites who die (Is.65:20) in the new heavens/earth era (Is.65:17),

and there will still be a curse (Is.65:20).

 

Anyway, it's not easy to put the pieces of this gigantic puzzle together!

It's tough to be too sure about lots of these things....but fun to look into them...just as angels also seek to ever-better-understand (1Pe.1:12).

 

blessings...

 

[Resurrection Priest]

8 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

Surely you won't claim that every single Israelite in restored Israel will be a Levitical priest...right?

I believe that every single Israelite in restored/redeemed/saved "Israel" WILL BE a Melchizedek priest.  Some of them will be individuals who were Levite priests in their former lives (before the Glorious Return). 

While they will be "priests", they will not function as Levite priests offering the blood of bulls and goats.  That system of "atonement by animal blood sacrament" is gone.  That system was a prophecy which meet it's fulfillment in Yeshua Messiah. 

[Still Alive]

A worthwhile read: https://drmsh.com/hebrew-roots-movement/

 

And his podcast transcript on it: https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/NB-173-Transcript.pdf

[Resurrection Priest]

Daniel 12:2-3 describes two groups of people was are resurrected at the Glorious Return.  Multitudes are raised, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt.  Those raised to eternal life, will receive immortal spiritual bodies.  Those raised to everlasting contempt, will face Yeshua for judgment, and then die as the earth is consumed by the last plagues. 

There is a third group of people.   "The rest of the dead" (Revelation 20:5).  This group of people are not resurrected at the Glorious Return.  They will sleep on in death for 1000 years.  They are resurrected at the 8th millennium.  I believe this group will consist of individuals who for whatever reason (immaturity/disability/circumstances)  lived and died in ignorance of GOD, and certainly in ignorance of His Son Yeshua.  God will not just leave them behind.  He will give them the opportunity to hear of HIM, and to choose whether to serve HIM.

When this third group of people are resurrected at the 8th millennium, they will need to learn the ways of the LORD.  They will need to learn of GOD's love as expressed through Messiah.  These will be "the nations" who "go up to the House of the LORD" to learn His ways.  They will need teachers.  They will need to be governed. 

I believe that "Israel" delivered and made immortal at the Glorious Return, will govern and teach these "nations" as priests under Yeshua Messiah.  Ezekiel's Temple is specifically for this period - for "the rest".  They will need a place of interface with GOD. 

This scenario fits the words of the prophecies. 

Because "the rest" are raised mortal, they can still die.  They can still commit murder.  These individuals can choose to serve Christ or to rebel against Him.  I believe that many will choose GOD.  I believe that multitudes will rebel.  They will gather under Gog, into the great Army of Gog/Magog.  This great army will come up to attack Jerusalem (Rev 20:7-10).  Fire will come down from Heaven, and consume them. 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

9 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

CONCLUSION:  The corporate description option makes better sense of the data on the table here.

Hi BibleGuy,

I didn't want to take up space quoting your entire post.   The whole CORPORATE vs INDIVIDUAL thing didn't make sense - to me at least. 

I realize you believe there can be no "change" to the way things were done during the "First Covenant".   Which means you read every passage with THAT belief.  I disagree with that view.  I believe "the priesthood" (of Levites) was "changed" back to the "firstborn" (Melchizedek) order of priesthood (the original order).  I read the passages with THAT understanding. 

Our individual understandings of all prophetic passages will differ, because our basic premise differs. 

I've heard HR teachers argue that God "never changes", and His "Law" never changes. 

But He did "change" from "the firstborn" to "the Levites" after the golden calf rebellion.

PRIOR TO THE GOLDEN CALF REBELLION

Exodus 13:2 "Consecrate to me every firstborn male. The first offspring of every womb among the Israelites belongs to me, whether human or animal."

Exodus 22:29  "The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me."

AFTER THE GOLDEN CALF REBELLION

Numbers 3:12 "Look, I myself have taken the Levites from among the Israelites instead of every firstborn who opens the womb among the Israelites. So the Levites belong to me"

Numbers 3:12 "Now, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the sons of Israel instead of every first-born"

Numbers 3:41 And thou shalt take the Levites for me--I am the Lord--instead of all the first-born of the sons of Israel

THIS IS A CHANGE.

If the LORD changed the priesthood once, He could change it again - especially to change it back to what it was originally, once the death of His Son wiped away the old sins of Israel. 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/23/2019 at 1:37 PM, Resurrection Priest said:

I was thinking about the numbers.  Israel was a small nation.  The tribe of Levi would be 1/12th of that number - roughly speaking.  The family of Aaron 1/3rd of that, and male descendants only half of that.  That number would be significantly less, when you realize that only those faithful "in heart" (circumcised in heart) will be saved into the Kingdom of Messiah.  Not very many to serve the large population of the "saved" from the entire history of earth.  (I personally do not believe there will be marriage or reproduction after the Glorious Return, so the numbers would not change.) 

But if "the priesthood" were indeed changed back to "the firstborn" - the order of Melchizedek, then you would have a much larger number of priests to serve at Ezekiel's Temple. 

The sacrifice of animals is a separate issue. 

"Not very many to serve the large population of the "saved" from the entire history of earth.  (I personally do not believe there will be marriage or reproduction after the Glorious Return, so the numbers would not change.) "

In fact, the numbers of LEVITES will be as the sand on the seashore (Jer.33:22).

 

Also, remember, tribal identity is NOT rigidly genetically determined (e.g., Eze. 47:23;Dt.29;Dt.31;Is.56), and we are evidently free to join, as COMPANIONS, which ever part of Israel we prefer (given Eze.37:15-20).

Again, we are FELLOW HEIRS (Eph.3:6) of the land inheritance (Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29), which means we will have tribal identity in the future, even though most us believers, presently, probably have no clue which tribe we might prefer.

"Not very many to serve the large population of the "saved" from the entire history of earth.  "

Well, perhaps the Levitical service is primarily (or exclusively) for those who do NOT have resurrection bodies....after all, we who have Resurrection bodies will no longer sin, so we won't need sin sacrifices....

But the regular human Israelites at that time will still have sacrifices (Zec.14;Is.66;Jer.33;Eze.40-47;Dt.30:1-8;Mal.3:4;Is.61), and they will still die (due to sin) during that new-heaven/new earth era (Is.65:17-20).

 

" (I personally do not believe there will be marriage or reproduction after the Glorious Return, so the numbers would not change.) "

The numbers will change profoundly, given Jer.33:22.

Regarding cessation of marriage, it appears there is no longer marriage for us who are in Resurrection Bodies (Mk.12:25)....but those regular humans still on the planet WILL continue to reproduce (Is.61:9....OFFSPRING....DESCENDANTS....)

Again, regular humans will have children...these children will be the "youth" who routinely live PAST 100 years old (Is.65:20).

 

"But if "the priesthood" were indeed changed back to "the firstborn" - the order of Melchizedek, then you would have a much larger number of priests to serve at Ezekiel's Temple. "

Ezekiel's temple is served by LEVITICAL priests, descended from Zadok (Eze.40:46;43:19;44:15;48:11), not Melchizedek priests.

And BOTH Levitical and Melchizedek priesthoods can function simultaneously....no need to "change" from one to the other.

They BOTH function in their respective spheres of operation.

And the "firstborn means Melchizedek" argument is still unclear in my mind....I need you to you flesh that out again for me.  I'm not sure the link is as strong as you think...

 

"The sacrifice of animals is a separate issue. "

The sacrifice of animals is WIDESPREAD in Ezekiel's temple (Eze.45)....and that's a FUTURE time....thus animal sacrifices are NOT abolished or terminated at all.

We simply can't partake in animal sacrificial Torah portions right now because we are still in diaspora.....but we WILL return....the SECOND EXODUS WILL OCCUR AS PROPHESIED!

And when we return, 100% of all Torah will again be obeyed (Dt.30:1-8).

 

blessings...

[BibleGuy]

18 hours ago, Resurrection Priest said:

How would a few Levite priests be able to serve the entire population of the saved in the Kingdom? 

Israel was a small nation.  The tribe of Levi was 1/12th of the nation.  The family of Aaron was 1/3rd of that, and male descendants would be half (approximately) of that.  That number would be decreased significantly because only those faithful in heart will be saved for the Kingdom of Messiah.  Not many to serve the entire population of the saved from 6000 years. 

On the other hand, if "the priesthood" were "the firstborn" Melchizedek priesthood, there would be a large population of priests.  They could even rotate, serving only couple weeks a year. 

"How would a few Levite priests be able to serve the entire population of the saved in the Kingdom? "

I think I mentioned this just now in another post, but just to mention it again, I'd like to point out that Jer.33:22 confirms that there will be MULTITUDES of LEVITES....so don't worry!  There will be enough to serve!

 

"On the other hand, if "the priesthood" were "the firstborn" Melchizedek priesthood, there would be a large population of priests.  They could even rotate, serving only couple weeks a year. "

Only LEVITES from ZADOK can function as animal-sacrificing priests in the forthcoming temple of Ezekiel (Eze.40:46;43:19;44:15;48:11).

Generic Israelites are not qualified.

And I don't believe that generic Israelites will all be Melchizedek priests anyway....as I've explained already.

blessings...

 

[Resurrection Priest]

Exodus 29:9  "so the ministry of priesthood will belong to them by a perpetual ordinance. Thus you are to consecrate Aaron and his sons."

Exodus 40:15 "and you shall anoint them even as you have anointed their father, that they may minister as priests to Me; and their anointing shall qualify them for a perpetual priesthood throughout their generations." (NAS)

Numbers 25:13 [To Phinehas the son of Eleazar] "and it shall be for him and his descendants after him, a covenant of a perpetual priesthood, because he was jealous for his God, and made atonement for the sons of Israel.'"

Here is the one most often sited to "prove" the continuation of the Levite/Aaronic priesthood. 

Jeremiah 33:20 "This is what the LORD says: 'If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant-- and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me-- can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne."

Matthew 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

First:  "Heaven and earth WILL PASS AWAY"  (Matthew 24:35).  Mark 13:31 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." Luke 21:33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

Hebrews 1:10 He also says, "In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

Question is:  When? 

WHEN will "heaven and earth" pass away, necessitating the creation of the "new heavens" and the "new earth" ? 

I believe this earth will be consumed in "fire" at the Glorious Return of Messiah.    "The sky was split apart like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place." (Rev 6:14 NET)  The forces it would take to flatten every mountain and island - WOW!  An earthquake on the Richter scale of 14.  The sun is heated seven times hotter.  It may go super nova.  Nothing living will survive such forces. 

Second: 

1 Samuel 2:27 "Then a man of God came to Eli and said to him, "Thus says the LORD:`Did I not clearly reveal Myself to the house of your father when they were in Egypt in Pharaoh's house? 28 `Did I not choose him out of all the tribes of Israel to be My priest, to offer upon My altar, to burn incense, and to wear an ephod before Me? [This has to be Levi/Aaron.]  And did I not give to the house of your father all the offerings of the children of Israel made by fire? 29 `Why do you kick at My sacrifice and My offering which I have commanded in My dwelling place, and honor your sons more than Me, to make yourselves fat with the best of all the offerings of Israel My people?' 30 "Therefore the LORD God of Israel says:`I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.' But now the LORD says:`Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed. 31 `Behold, the days are coming that I will cut off your arm and the arm of your father's house, so that there will not be an old man in your house. 32 `And you will see an enemy in My dwelling place, despite all the good which God does for Israel. And there shall not be an old man in your house forever. 33 `But any of your men whom I do not cut off from My altar shall consume your eyes and grieve your heart. And all the descendants of your house shall die in the flower of their age. 34 `Now this shall be a sign to you that will come upon your two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas: in one day they shall die, both of them. 35 `Then I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who shall do according to what is in My heart and in My mind. I will build him a sure house, and he shall walk before My anointed forever. 36 `And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left in your house will come and bow down to him for a piece of silver and a morsel of bread, and say, "Please, put me in one of the priestly positions, that I may eat a piece of bread."'"

Here is the NIV.  "I will firmly establish his priestly house, and they will minister before my anointed one always." (1Sa 2:27 NIV)

The "faithful priest" would be Yeshua Messiah.  Those who will minister before Him - the LORD's anointed Son, will be the Melchizedek priests. 

The "enemy in My dwelling place" will be Antichrist, who "will sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2Thess 2:4). 

This passage shows that the covenant of the priesthood was not unconditional.  The vows taken, and the blood anointing of priests at their consecration made that a "blood covenant". 

 

 

 

 

[Resurrection Priest]

10 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

The numbers will change profoundly, given Jer.33:22.

The numbers will grow - not from reproduction, but from numbers added to the eternal kingdom, from "the rest of the dead" who are not resurrected until the 8th millennium.