Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's not forbidden either. No explicit statement either way. No conclusion can be drawn from lack of evidence. But it fits your personal story so you run with it.

Maybe. You make the assumption it's in heaven.

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”"

Nothing here speaks to a location other than the idea of where Jesus is, there we will be also. That could literally be anywhere since no location is given. There is a great deal of spiritual truth as well as spiritual perspective and existence in this statement by the Lord. It's not conclusive He was speaking of a particular location. This could be speaking to the moment of Jesus return to the clouds on the air, that's a receiving us to Him that where He is (clouds in the air) we will be with Him. 

That's not quite true is it? Paul's timing is just before wrath, Matt 24 timing is after GT, which is also just before wrath. Therefore the timing of both agree. Hence wrath only comes after GT and the gathering only occurs just before wrath; which means the gathering is only after the A of D and GT, and not before.

Huh... so Jesus will not descend from heaven to the clouds in the air? Clearly He does.

Gotta find relevant meaningful challenges, dude. 

NO assumptions. We form doctrine (Or SHOULD) from ALL end times scripture, not isolated verses. Case in point: both pretrib and posttrib doctrine agrees that Jesus remains in heaven for the ENTIRE period of the 70th week. So..."where AM Jesus?" Where was He when John wrote? Where will he be during the entire 70th week? You see, it is IMPORTANT to answer the question WHEN for Paul's rapture. If it is pretrib, then the church MUST go to heaven for the 70th week for that is where HE will be.  Posttribbers try to find that timing in the wrong places! Matthew 24 does not cover the rapture of the church. The church will not be invited to the 70th week for that time is for the JEWS. 

Let's just follow Paul and ask HIM WHEN. Shall we? Did you not notice that Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord, just three verses after his classic rapture verse of 4:17? Why would Paul do that unless the two are related? Did you overlook Paul and John in that BOTH Jesus and "the Day" come as a thief in the night? The reason Paul wrote of "the Day" right after the rapture is because the rapture will be the trigger for the start of "the Day." In other words, WRATH follows hard after rapture. In one split second of time, those that are ready are caught up, but those that are not ready are left behind to experience God's wrath in sudden destruction. This is Paul's message. He gives away the timing of the rapture: JUST BEFORE WRATH BEGINS.

Of course this tears a HUGE hole in posttrib doctrine. They want the rapture after wrath. 

No conclusion can be drawn from lack of evidence. We don't form doctrine from ONE VERSE or passage. There is evidence elsewhere in scripture.

But it fits your personal story   My theory comes from what is written.  Sorry, wrong again.

You make the assumption it's in heaven.  We both agree that Jesus is in heaven during the 70th week: did you forget: "so shall we ever be with the Lord," and "we get to live together with Him."  Look: wherever Jesus IS (am) during the 70th week, that is where the church will be. So wrong again: no assumptions made.

Nothing here speaks to a location other than the idea of where Jesus is, there we will be also. That could literally be anywhere since no location is given.   Answered above.

after GT, which is also just before wrath.   Sorry, but here you went far from the text. You really don't believe John so come up with your own timing of wrath. WHOSE wrath? Jesus' or the Father's? John begins the wrath of the Father with the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal and we can see that it continues on through the vials of His wrath. We can also see that Jesus has wrath when He comes to Armageddon. 

Since the Day of His wrath begins before the week and continues on through the week, i conclude you are far far from the truth of scripture here. You really don't believe John in the timing of GT either. WHERE are the days of GT in Revelation? Some theories are so wild and far off they insist the days of GT are in the seals!  Their understanding is so far off from truth they don't understand that the first 5 seals are church age, WAY WAY before (in timing) the 70th week begins. Learn John's timing and chronology:

Seal 5  - chapter 6 - CHURCH AGE

Seal 6 - chapter 6 - start of the end and beginning of the Father's wrath.

Seal 7 - chapter 8 - the book is finally opened revealing the start of the 70th week

First 6 trumpet judgments  - first half of the 70th week: all come with God's wrath

7th trumpet: marks the midpoint of the week, and the end of Adam's 6000 year lease.  Jesus gets His planet back! Satan is cast down - chapter 11

The man of sin enters the temple and declares HE is the God of the Jews. The 7th trumpet marks this moment in heaven. 

The man of sin is now "revealed." those in Judea flee to the mountains - probable southeasterly direction. 

The false prophet shows up - chapter 13.  The Father is still angry! GT has not begun - yet.

The image and mark are created.   - the days of GT have not begun  - yet.

The image and mark are starting to be enforced: people begin to be beheaded  -chapter 15. The days of GT have begun. 

God shortens those days by pouring out the vials of His wrath.

Finally the 70th week ends with the 7th vial.

This is John's chronology. Any theory that must change this order is BOGUS.

That's not quite true is it?  It IS true, but many posttribbers will not know it is true until the rapture takes place pretrib.

Hence wrath only comes after GT   Sorry, but you have left distant left field, you have left the ball park and have gone far from truth here.  Case in point: you really don't know where wrath begins nor do you know where the days of GT begin. How then can you write this? Oh! It is because you THINK you know. Sorry, but I am going to follow John's timing on both. God begins the Day of His wrath (He begins to get angry) at the 6th seal. The 70th week is still future and the days of GT (in the last half of the week) are even farther in the future. Perhaps this will help: ANY theory that must rearrange Rev. to fit will be proven wrong. Period and end of story. 

which means the gathering is only after the A of D and GT, and not before.  One error leads to another and another and soon one is far far from the truth of scripture. I suggest you learn the truth of WHERE in Revelation wrath begins, and WHERE in Revelation the days of GT begin. 

WHERE did you miss it?  Paul's timing is just before wrath, Matt 24 timing is after GT, which is also just before wrath.

You are correct until your last phrase, "after GT WHICH IS ALSO JUST BEFORE WRATH. Suppose you try and support that with scripture?

so Jesus will not descend from heaven to the clouds in the air?    Of course He does! It is written in 1 Thes. 4.

You and I will not be in any kind of agreement until you find out WHERE wrath begins, WHERE GT is, and WHERE the entire 70th week is - in Revelation.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You said that wrong. Why do you or anyone else need one scripture that speaks of returns - plural - when we have many scriptures speaking of a return, and they show us two different returns; one where Jesus comes to the air and remains in a cloud, and another scripture that shows us He will return to the homes He has built for us. Then there are other scriptures that show us He is coming to fight at Armageddon. 

Agreed: Acts 1 shows us how He will come for that particular coming; but 1 Thes. 4 shows us how He will come at a different coming; remaining in the air and not touching down.  Maybe you have not realized this, but forcing two comings into one causes far more problems than it solves.

I'll stick with the plain reading of the text.  Thank you.

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

You might need multiple returns of Jesus to make your eschatology work.  I don't.  And I'm not going to waste time arguing about it when it's spelled out in the above passage.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I'll stick with the plain reading of the text.  Thank you.

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

You might need multiple returns of Jesus to make your eschatology work.  I don't.  And I'm not going to waste time arguing about it when it's spelled out in the above passage.

I will copy someone else on these threads and ask questions; Where do you see that in Rev. 19? It is not there. Where do you see that in 1 Thes. 4 or 1 Cor. 15? It is not there. However, we see it in Zec. 14:On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

Here is certainly a touch down. Verse 2 tells us it will be when He gathers the nations against Jerusalem - so that fits Rev. 19 and the Battle of Armageddon. However, it cannot possibly fit His coming in 1 thes. which is before wrath begins.  Yes, correct: the scriptures prove multiple returns (2 exactly) left in our future. 

Again, Last Daze, it is a mistake to form doctrine from an isolated verse. You will end up in error, because your theory will not fit other verses. Any theory  - to be correct - must fit EVERY end time verse.

Edited March 27, 2020 by iamlamad

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Again, Last Daze, it is a mistake to form doctrine from an isolated verse. You will end up in error, because your theory will not fit other verses. Any theory  - to be correct - must fit EVERY end time verse.

It's not based on one verse alone.  I just don't care to go into it.

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 Case in point: both pretrib and posttrib doctrine agrees that Jesus remains in heaven for the ENTIRE period of the 70th week.  

It is a case in point of doctrine over scripture. This, "pretrib and posttrib doctrine agrees that Jesus remains in heaven for the ENTIRE period of the 70th week." is nothing more than a false premise. It lends man's doctrine internal logical consistency and that's it. 

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Matthew 24 does not cover the rapture of the church. 

It does. You just don't like it.

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 The church will not be invited to the 70th week for that time is for the JEWS. 

You'll see. We all will.

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Let's just follow Paul and ask HIM WHEN. Shall we? Did you not notice that Paul mentioned the Day of the Lord, just three verses after his classic rapture verse of 4:17? Why would Paul do that unless the two are related? Did you overlook Paul and John in that BOTH Jesus and "the Day" come as a thief in the night? The reason Paul wrote of "the Day" right after the rapture is because the rapture will be the trigger for the start of "the Day." In other words, WRATH follows hard after rapture. In one split second of time, those that are ready are caught up, but those that are not ready are left behind to experience God's wrath in sudden destruction. This is Paul's message. He gives away the timing of the rapture: JUST BEFORE WRATH BEGINS.

Of course this tears a HUGE hole in posttrib doctrine. They want the rapture after wrath. 

This is only true when one equates the entire 70th week with the wrath of God. I know your take on the seals. What will you say when trumps sound?

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Since the Day of His wrath begins before the week and continues on through the week, i conclude you are far far from the truth of scripture here. You really don't believe John in the timing of GT either. WHERE are the days of GT in Revelation? Some theories are so wild and far off they insist the days of GT are in the seals!  Their understanding is so far off from truth they don't understand that the first 5 seals are church age, WAY WAY before (in timing) the 70th week begins. Learn John's timing and chronology:

Since there is no such thing as 'church age'...

You conclude whatever you like. I'm not your judge. 

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Seal 5  - chapter 6 - CHURCH AGE

Seal 6 - chapter 6 - start of the end and beginning of the Father's wrath.

Seal 7 - chapter 8 - the book is finally opened revealing the start of the 70th week

First 6 trumpet judgments  - first half of the 70th week: all come with God's wrath

7th trumpet: marks the midpoint of the week, and the end of Adam's 6000 year lease.  Jesus gets His planet back! Satan is cast down - chapter 11

The man of sin enters the temple and declares HE is the God of the Jews. The 7th trumpet marks this moment in heaven. 

The man of sin is now "revealed." those in Judea flee to the mountains - probable southeasterly direction. 

The false prophet shows up - chapter 13.  The Father is still angry! GT has not begun - yet.

The image and mark are created.   - the days of GT have not begun  - yet.

The image and mark are starting to be enforced: people begin to be beheaded  -chapter 15. The days of GT have begun. 

God shortens those days by pouring out the vials of His wrath.

Finally the 70th week ends with the 7th vial.

This is John's chronology. Any theory that must change this order is BOGUS.

John's chronology? Maybe that's why you don't see it?

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."

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   Sorry, but you have left distant left field, you have left the ball park and have gone far from truth here.  Case in point: you really don't know where wrath begins nor do you know where the days of GT begin. How then can you write this? Oh! It is because you THINK you know. Sorry, but I am going to follow John's timing on both. God begins the Day of His wrath (He begins to get angry) at the 6th seal. The 70th week is still future and the days of GT (in the last half of the week) are even farther in the future. Perhaps this will help: ANY theory that must rearrange Rev. to fit will be proven wrong. Period and end of story. 

Wrath begins at the 7th trump. The 6th seal is the sign of His coming and the fear of the nations wrath is about to begin.

"And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place."

After this MANKIND states in terror wrath is coming. But when the 7th trump sounds it is the elders in heaven that declare wrath is about to begin.

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,

and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power 

and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants,

the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

 

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You are correct until your last phrase, "after GT WHICH IS ALSO JUST BEFORE WRATH. Suppose you try and support that with scripture?

No amount of evidence convinces you. You'll see it with your own eyes, if any of us are still alive when it begins.

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so Jesus will not descend from heaven to the clouds in the air?    Of course He does! It is written in 1 Thes. 4.

Right. But you said, "Agreed, In Revelation 19 coming He WILL descend just as He once ascended. But it is not going to be at His 1 Thes. 4 coming."

So is he going to descend or not? First you say He won't, then you say He will. Which is it? I don't know why you cannot see that one decent of Jesus from heaven, as He was seen to ascend, clears up all doctrinal inconsistencies.

Why is it such a problem to see that His coming once for a 2nd time fits all the scriptures? And why is it impossible for Jesus to command the angels to gather the resurrected dead, then translate the living to meet Him in the clouds of the air, then finish His descent to the mount of Olives and save the remnant of the nation of Israel, then defeat the armies of the world arrayed against Him?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by Diaste

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This proves that it is impossible that any trumpet judgment aligns in time with any seal. Seals must come first so that the book can be opened

No it does not. And this, "Seals must come first so that the book can be opened" is not how it is presented.

Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say in a thunderous voice, “Come!”

So I looked and saw a white horse, and its rider had a bow. And he was given a crown, and he rode out to overcome and conquer.

And when the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!”

Then another horse went forth. It was bright red, and its rider was granted permission to take away peace from the earth and to make men slay one another. And he was given a great sword.

And when the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!”

Then I looked and saw a black horse, and its rider held in his hand a pair of scales. And I heard what sounded like a voice from among the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not waste the oil and wine.”

And when the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!”

Then I looked and saw a pale horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”

This last one is telling in my mind. At the opening of this seal the martyrs, "...had been slain..." past tense. Already done and is a result of the events which the previous seals unleashed. As each seal is opened a condition arises. As a philosophical point I don't know if all the seals are opened and these conditions arise over time or if the seals are opened at set times. But I do know that as each seal is opened a condition is described and unleashed to run it's course. Like turning the pages of a book. 

You are thinking the seven seals are all on the outside of the scroll and all must be broken in order to open the scroll when in reality the ancient custom was to write something on papyrus roll it past the writing then press a seal. Write some more, roll it past the writing again then press another seal, and so on.

This is borne out in Rev 6 when at the breaking of each seal it can be read what is in the scroll. Jesus opens the first seal and a condition manifests. Only after this is the second seal opened and so on. 

So no, the seal are NOT all opened before the scroll can be read. 

On 3/27/2020 at 7:24 AM, iamlamad said:

Don't forget my axiom on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong. 

YOUR axiom. The mind of man and it only applies to you personally. It's a weak position that only proves you have a personal interpretation of prophecy.

 

On 3/27/2020 at 7:24 AM, iamlamad said:

This proves that it is impossible that any trumpet judgment aligns in time with any seal. 

Joel 1 tells us the A of D has occurred and the effects of the 1st and 3rd trump exist, before the day of the Lord. That places at least three trumps before the 6th seal. And the 6th seal being the sign of Jesus coming and the 7th trump as the beginning of wrath, the 7th trump as the last trump at which we are gathered, means all 6 trumps have sounded before the 6th seal. 

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

No it does not. And this, "Seals must come first so that the book can be opened" is not how it is presented.

Then I watched as the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say in a thunderous voice, “Come!”

So I looked and saw a white horse, and its rider had a bow. And he was given a crown, and he rode out to overcome and conquer.

And when the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!”

Then another horse went forth. It was bright red, and its rider was granted permission to take away peace from the earth and to make men slay one another. And he was given a great sword.

And when the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!”

Then I looked and saw a black horse, and its rider held in his hand a pair of scales. And I heard what sounded like a voice from among the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not waste the oil and wine.”

And when the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!”

Then I looked and saw a pale horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”

This last one is telling in my mind. At the opening of this seal the martyrs, "...had been slain..." past tense. Already done and is a result of the events which the previous seals unleashed. As each seal is opened a condition arises. As a philosophical point I don't know if all the seals are opened and these conditions arise over time or if the seals are opened at set times. But I do know that as each seal is opened a condition is described and unleashed to run it's course. Like turning the pages of a book. 

You are thinking the seven seals are all on the outside of the scroll and all must be broken in order to open the scroll when in reality the ancient custom was to write something on papyrus roll it past the writing then press a seal. Write some more, roll it past the writing again then press another seal, and so on.

This is borne out in Rev 6 when at the breaking of each seal it can be read what is in the scroll. Jesus opens the first seal and a condition manifests. Only after this is the second seal opened and so on. 

So no, the seal are NOT all opened before the scroll can be read. 

YOUR axiom. The mind of man and it only applies to you personally. It's a weak position that only proves you have a personal interpretation of prophecy.

Joel 1 tells us the A of D has occurred and the effects of the 1st and 3rd trump exist, before the day of the Lord. That places at least three trumps before the 6th seal. And the 6th seal being the sign of Jesus coming and the 7th trump as the beginning of wrath, the 7th trump as the last trump at which we are gathered, means all 6 trumps have sounded before the 6th seal. 

All you are telling us is that you don't understand the very purpose of a "seal."  Neither do you understand that each seal has things written about THAT SEAL ALONE that can be read and carried out when that seal alone is opened. What happens in a seal is certainly NOT what is inside the book. John does not get to what is inside the book until chapter 8.

What you are missing: seals seal a book so that it cannot be opened unless one qualified to open the seals is present.  This is proven in chapter 5 when a search was made for one worthy to open the seals. 

Next, you are ignoring the BOOK: always know, what is BEING sealed is more important then the seals sealing it.

Next, this is a document from the throne room (court room) of heaven. Note that it is first seen in the hand of Father God. 

Next, since this is a legal document prepared in heaven, it would be ILLEGAL for anything written in the book to be read (and those things read take place) or in any seal: what is written would be illegal to take place unless or until that seal is opened - all except the 5th seal. It's purpose (other than sealing the book) is to reveal why judgment would not come immediately. The 6th seal is to legally begin the Day of the Lord. So it seems you will form a doctrine from the 5th seal alone? It is unique among the seals for it reveals what has already taken place.  That would make it the exception, not the rule. 

Next, God's goal is to get to the 7th trumpet so that Satan can be dethroned. However, to get there, all the seals MUST be opened first.  Therefore, God cannot send out the church to take the gospel to the world UNTIL or UNLESS that first seal can be legally opened. Satan cannot bring war unless that 2nd seal is opened. Got it? Each seal makes legal what is written in it, when it is opened. Case in point: what did God show John first: seals or trumpets? Of course SEALS for the book revealing the trumpets cannot be  opened until the seals are opened first. 

And this, "Seals must come first so that the book can be opened" is not how it is presented.  OF COURSE that is how it is presented. I don't know how anyone could come to any other conclusion. God's goal is to get the book opened so that the 70th week can take place.  That is the ONLY WAY Satan can be dethroned. 

is a result of the events which the previous seals unleashed.   I cannot agree here: none of the earlier seals reveal death by martyrship.  They do reveal death: wars kill. Famines kill. Death by pestilence kills. It is the result of the first seal, the church sent out with the gospel. Satan hates the church and hates the gospel. So He murders saints. If any previous seal fits this, it would be seal 4 titled death.

Like turning the pages of a book.   I can agree here totally: I made such a book, with seven seals. Each seal opened a a strip of the scroll so that that strip alone could be unrolled and read. I only wrote "Seal # 1 is opened" etc for each seal and strip. But I could not unroll the scroll until all 7 seals were opened first. When I finally got the 7th seal opened it read : "now the book can be opened."   Then I opened (unrolled) the scroll and it read: "the 70th week can now begin with the first trumpet."

You are thinking the seven seals are all on the outside of the scroll and all must be broken in order to open the scroll when in reality the ancient custom was to write something on papyrus roll it past the writing then press a seal. Write some more, roll it past the writing again then press another seal, and so on.

Perhaps some were done this way.  

Jer. 23:11  So I took the evidence of the purchase, both that which was sealed according to the law and custom, and that which was open:

Here words could be read without breaking a seal. But other words were sealed. 

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

5:3. But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

What is this verse telling us? I would take "backside" to be on the outside of the scroll: words that could be read without opening any seal. In this case it seems those words would tell WHO would be worthy to take the book and open the seals. Note also that John SAW seven seals. Like many pictures from artists, all seven seals are visible.  Each seal opens only a strip of parchment or whatever, so that only those words pertaining to that seal could be read. 

When I read everything there is to read about this book, I think Satan, as god of this world, demanded of God that this book (that would, when opened, cause Him to be cast down and lose his position as god of this world) be sealed, and that no one could ever be worthy to open the seals unless that person (It had to be a man) could rise from the dead under his own power and escape out of hell. I get this because Jesus Himself was not found worthy until after He rose from the dead. 

My point: if your theory of a book sealed with seals is correct, John could not have seen 7 seals. It does not say he "heard; it says he SAW.

This is borne out in Rev 6 when at the breaking of each seal it can be read what is in the scroll. Jesus opens the first seal and a condition manifests. Only after this is the second seal opened and so on.   I disagree. It is each SEAL that is read, not the book itself. If the book itself could be read, no purpose for it to be sealed.  The very purpose of a seal is to prevent the book from being opened.  I created such a scroll so that when a seal was opened, ONLY a strip of paper sealed by that one seal could be unrolled and read.  But I could not unroll the entire scroll until all seven seals were opened. 

According to John,  nothing was read for each seal, just events took place. Even if your theory was correct, once the 7th seal was opened, the scroll could then be unrolled with no hindrance and if the trumpets or the entire 70th week were written inside, then it could be read and take place. 

So no, the seal are NOT all opened before the scroll can be read.   You are thinking seals = book. I disagree. When all seven seals are opened, there is still THE BOOK to consider. In Jeremiah, the evidence of the sale of property was written INSIDE the scroll.  However, if your theory of the book is right, then the trumpet judgments are written under the 7th seal. In any case, the trumpet judgments cannot begin until all 7 seals are opened. 

My whole argument is that all seals must be opened before one trumpet judgment can begin.  Are you disagreeing; thinking a trumpet could sound any any seal?

Benson Commentary seems to agree with you:  In short, we should consider this book as being such a one as the ancients used, whose books were not like ours, but volumes, or long pieces of parchment, rolled upon a stick, as we frequently roll silks. Such was this volume or roll, consisting of seven volumes all sealed. Not as if the apostle saw all the seals at once, there being seven volumes wrapped up one within another, each of which was sealed: so that upon opening and unrolling the first, the contents only of one volume were laid open, and the second appeared to be sealed up till that was opened, and so on to the seventh.

J.F.B. Commentary:

The roll, or book, appears from the context to be "the title-deed of man's inheritance" [De Burgh] redeemed by Christ, and contains the successive steps by which He shall recover it from its usurper and obtain actual possession of the kingdom already "purchased" for Himself and His elect saints.

I have to go. Barnes' Notes also seems to agree with you.

Edited March 28, 2020 by iamlamad

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

All you are telling us is that you don't understand the very purpose of a "seal."  Neither do you understand that each seal has things written about THAT SEAL ALONE that can be read and carried out when that seal alone is opened. What happens in a seal is certainly NOT what is inside the book. John does not get to what is inside the book until chapter 8.

I have always found this interesting:

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm."

"...and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake."

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake...And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous."

This is the 7th seal, the 7th trump and the 7th vial. I find this strikingly similar. Especially so the hail at the 7th trump and the 7th vial.

And there is this:

" and every mountain and island was moved from its place."

"Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found."

This is the 6th seal and the 7th vial.

So very similar, don't you think? I find it implausible that all the islands and mountains were moved from their place, only to be put back, then 7 years later the islands flee and the mountains disappear. 

 

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 It is unique among the seals for it reveals what has already taken place.  That would make it the exception, not the rule. 

The point was the happening had occurred. Therefore the condition or event has already occurred before the last two seals.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Next, God's goal is to get to the 7th trumpet so that Satan can be dethroned. However, to get there, all the seals MUST be opened first.  Therefore, God cannot send out the church to take the gospel to the world UNTIL or UNLESS that first seal can be legally opened. Satan cannot bring war unless that 2nd seal is opened. Got it? Each seal makes legal what is written in it, when it is opened. Case in point: what did God show John first: seals or trumpets? Of course SEALS for the book revealing the trumpets cannot be  opened until the seals are opened first. 

And this, "Seals must come first so that the book can be opened" is not how it is presented.  OF COURSE that is how it is presented. I don't know how anyone could come to any other conclusion. God's goal is to get the book opened so that the 70th week can take place.  That is the ONLY WAY Satan can be dethroned. 

is a result of the events which the previous seals unleashed.   I cannot agree here: none of the earlier seals reveal death by martyrship.  They do reveal death: wars kill. Famines kill. Death by pestilence kills. It is the result of the first seal, the church sent out with the gospel. Satan hates the church and hates the gospel. So He murders saints. If any previous seal fits this, it would be seal 4 titled death.

Like turning the pages of a book.   I can agree here totally: I made such a book, with seven seals. Each seal opened a a strip of the scroll so that that strip alone could be unrolled and read. I only wrote "Seal # 1 is opened" etc for each seal and strip. But I could not unroll the scroll until all 7 seals were opened first. When I finally got the 7th seal opened it read : "now the book can be opened."   Then I opened (unrolled) the scroll and it read: "the 70th week can now begin with the first trumpet."

Yet as each seal is opened there is an associated condition. One seal opened, one condition is released. Not, "And the Lamb broke all 7 seals at once to open the scroll." but, "And when the Lamb opened..." each seal in order something came out of it. I don't know where you're getting 'book', as though there is some other text in some hidden document only revealed after the 7th seal is opened. The term used is the one for a papyrus roll, biblion.  The scroll has 7 seals and all are opened and there is nothing about more text past the 7th seal.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

5:3. But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

What is this verse telling us? I would take "backside" to be on the outside of the scroll: words that could be read without opening any seal. In this case it seems those words would tell WHO would be worthy to take the book and open the seals. Note also that John SAW seven seals. Like many pictures from artists, all seven seals are visible.  Each seal opens only a strip of parchment or whatever, so that only those words pertaining to that seal could be read. 

Sure. He may have. This may be pedantic but unless the text says John actually saw 7 seals on the outside of the scroll I cannot go there. Since John could not see the text written on the inside of the scroll, yet John says there is text on the inside, he had an insight to that, not an eyewitness since the book was closed or the scroll rolled up. If anything was on the inside he could not see it, yet he tells us this is the case. The same with the seals. John was given insight to that which he could not see with physical eyes. All he actually saw was the 'book' in the hand of the one on the throne and writing on the outside.

But it is possible he did see 7 seals all on the outside. I don't think so because of how the scroll is opened, One seal, one event not all 7 seals, then all 7 events.

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have always found this interesting:

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and an earthquake, and a great hailstorm."

"...and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake."

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake...And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous."

This is the 7th seal, the 7th trump and the 7th vial. I find this strikingly similar. Especially so the hail at the 7th trump and the 7th vial.

And there is this:

" and every mountain and island was moved from its place."

"Then every island fled, and no mountain could be found."

This is the 6th seal and the 7th vial.

So very similar, don't you think? I find it implausible that all the islands and mountains were moved from their place, only to be put back, then 7 years later the islands flee and the mountains disappear. 

 

The point was the happening had occurred. Therefore the condition or event has already occurred before the last two seals.

Yet as each seal is opened there is an associated condition. One seal opened, one condition is released. Not, "And the Lamb broke all 7 seals at once to open the scroll." but, "And when the Lamb opened..." each seal in order something came out of it. I don't know where you're getting 'book', as though there is some other text in some hidden document only revealed after the 7th seal is opened. The term used is the one for a papyrus roll, biblion.  The scroll has 7 seals and all are opened and there is nothing about more text past the 7th seal.

Sure. He may have. This may be pedantic but unless the text says John actually saw 7 seals on the outside of the scroll I cannot go there. Since John could not see the text written on the inside of the scroll, yet John says there is text on the inside, he had an insight to that, not an eyewitness since the book was closed or the scroll rolled up. If anything was on the inside he could not see it, yet he tells us this is the case. The same with the seals. John was given insight to that which he could not see with physical eyes. All he actually saw was the 'book' in the hand of the one on the throne and writing on the outside.

But it is possible he did see 7 seals all on the outside. I don't think so because of how the scroll is opened, One seal, one event not all 7 seals, then all 7 events.

 

Rev. 11:

¹⁶ And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

¹⁷ Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

¹⁹ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Notice first in verse 17,  is a saying; it is the 24 elders praising. Verse 18 is interesting, to say the least. What is the timing of the nations being angry?  It is in the Greek a " Aorist Passive Indicative" verb. Notice what a Greek Dictionary said:  "The aorist tense (and its grammatical variation, the second aorist tense) has no clear equivalent in English. It is characterized by its emphasis on precise accordance with details, without consideration for past, present or future time! 

In other words, we cannot determine timing from this sentence. All we can know is that the nations were, are or will be angry.  However, considering this is the first time John mentions the nations and anger, I think we can say that at this point in time, they are angry. 

For God's in the next phrase, the Greek is "Second Aorist Active Indicative."   We have the same problem wondering "when." The Greek word does not give away timing. However, Here we have a previous verse that tells us His wrath and the Day of His wrath began earlier, at the 6th seal. 

Notice how this translation put it:

English Standard Version
The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

As for the time of the judging of the dead, we can read ahead and see that this phrase is prophetic: it will happen some time in the future. We see that in chapter 20.  Same with the rewards; we see that happening in chapter 20 when the saints become judges.  When does God "destroy them" who are destroying the earth? Right here? NO! Again we read ahead and see that God started the destruction in the trumpets, and will continue with the vials. It seems then that this may well be part of the prophecy said by the elders, but here John put it in the 3rd person and just summarize what they said. 

In verse 19, there is a question: it seems that John saw the lightnings, voices, thunderings, an earthquake and great hail while looking into the throne room!  If this is John's meaning, then these things to were part of His vision as prophecy of something coming in the future. 

As you know, I am a stickler for TIMING in Revelation. Chapter 11 begins just days before the midpoint, then covers the midpoint, then covers moments after the midpoint.  Knowing this, common sense tells me that these events don't happen at the midpoint, but are prophetic, pointing to the future. Since I can find these same events later on in the book, I am convinced. 

In chapter 8, the earthquake does not seem to be a cataclysmic earthquake such as at the 7th vial. There is a HUGE difference in mountains being moved and mountains disappearing, never to be seen again, so we can know that the 7th vial earthquake is not the same as the 6th seal earthquake. 

What can it mean that every mountain was moved from its place? I have read that the earthquake in Japan that caused the great tsumami actually changed the earth's axis by over 6 inches. This would have moved every mountain also. It also moved Japan's main island by 8 feet! So Mount Fuji was moved 8 feet. 

From my prospective, there is enough differences in these things that I think John's chronology outweighs the similarities.  I find it very telling that for the most part John used Aorist tense verbs throughout his book, but when writing of the two witnesses, use future tense verbs:

1:3 And 2532 I will give 1325 5692 [power] unto my 3450 two 1417 witnesses 3144, and 2532 they shall prophesy 4395 5692 a thousand 5507 two hundred 1250 [and] threescore 1835 days 2250, clothed in 4016 5772 sackcloth 4526.  I think God did this because so many people try to push their arrival back at the beginning of the week and God wants us to know, they arrive right here just before the midpoint of the week.

My point was and still is, seals are there to seal something OTHER than just the seals. It was a book. The book is sealed with seals. It is just logical that once the seals are opened, then the book is opened. In other words, it is not a book of seven seals, but a book SEALED with 7 seals. We will probably disagree on this. You do have a point: he could not see inside the scroll at that moment in time. However, he was not writing as he was seeing. He wrote later, after the visions had ended.

Edited March 29, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 3/28/2020 at 7:44 AM, Diaste said:

It is a case in point of doctrine over scripture. This, "pretrib and posttrib doctrine agrees that Jesus remains in heaven for the ENTIRE period of the 70th week." is nothing more than a false premise. It lends man's doctrine internal logical consistency and that's it. 

It does. You just don't like it.

You'll see. We all will.

This is only true when one equates the entire 70th week with the wrath of God. I know your take on the seals. What will you say when trumps sound?

Since there is no such thing as 'church age'...

You conclude whatever you like. I'm not your judge. 

John's chronology? Maybe that's why you don't see it?

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Wrath begins at the 7th trump. The 6th seal is the sign of His coming and the fear of the nations wrath is about to begin.

"And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place."

After this MANKIND states in terror wrath is coming. But when the 7th trump sounds it is the elders in heaven that declare wrath is about to begin.

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,

and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power 

and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants,

the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

 

No amount of evidence convinces you. You'll see it with your own eyes, if any of us are still alive when it begins.

Right. But you said, "Agreed, In Revelation 19 coming He WILL descend just as He once ascended. But it is not going to be at His 1 Thes. 4 coming."

So is he going to descend or not? First you say He won't, then you say He will. Which is it? I don't know why you cannot see that one decent of Jesus from heaven, as He was seen to ascend, clears up all doctrinal inconsistencies.

Why is it such a problem to see that His coming once for a 2nd time fits all the scriptures? And why is it impossible for Jesus to command the angels to gather the resurrected dead, then translate the living to meet Him in the clouds of the air, then finish His descent to the mount of Olives and save the remnant of the nation of Israel, then defeat the armies of the world arrayed against Him? 

"pretrib and posttrib doctrine agrees that Jesus remains in heaven for the ENTIRE period of the 70th week." is nothing more than a false premise.

If I am mistaken, please, straighten out my thinking here. I was quite sure I knew that much about postrib doctrine. After all, their main claim to fame is that the rapture and His coming is postrib. Does that not mean that He remains in heaven during the "trib?"

It does. You just don't like it.  I don't think it does. I think the gathering there is God gathering all the Jews back to Israel. I know it cannot be Paul's rapture because of where it gathers and the timing issue. It has nothing to do with "like." 

You'll see. We all will.  I don't have to "will see;" I can already read in Daniel that the entire 70 weeks is for HIS people. If the first 69 was for the Jews, the chance that the final week will be for the Jews is about 100%. 

This is only true when one equates the entire 70th week with the wrath of God. I know your take on the seals. What will you say when trumps sound?  It is a moot point: I know the entire 70th week is wrath. The first thing God taught me when He began teaching me Revelation was to find the entire 70th week "clearly marked." I know where the 70th week is in Revelation, and I know where wrath begins - BEFORE the week. Then I see evidence of His wrath DURING the week as proof. People get into doctrinal problems when they try to seperate wrath from the 70th week.  I am not going to be here for the trumpets. If you wish to be, that will be between you and God. It is part of DANIEL's people's time. The church is not invited!  

Since there is no such thing as 'church age'...  Sure there is: we are living in it! How can you deny the very time you are living? Has the rapture removed the church yet? Of course not. So the church is still active on earth as the body of Christ and God is still waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in. 

John's chronology? Maybe that's why you don't see it?  Do you disagree with the order in which John wrote these events? Whether or not you acknowledge it, John has a chronology. 

to show His servants what must soon come to pass. DID John write of events that would soon come to pass? I think John did exactly what this says. Take note that it does NOT say ONLY those events what must soon come to pass. 

Wrath begins at the 7th trump.  So you either ignore the 6th seal start of the DAY of His wrath, or you rearrange the 6th seal to match the 7th trumpet.  Which is it? Sorry, but I think Jesus came to the AIR at or a moment before the 6th seal (the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night) and returns right back to heaven for the duration of the week.  For sure wrath EXISTS (is present) at the 7th trumpet. 

The 6th seal is the sign of His coming Sorry, but the 6th seal IS His coming according to 1 Thes. 4 & 5. But He comes only to the air. Perhaps He is SEEN, which could be  why those who flee to the mountains are scared of his face.  Did Paul call the rapture "a coming?" Certainly he did! 

What you are missing here: Old Testament scriptures on the Day of the Lord TELL US He (God) is going to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. Is destroying all the grass and 1/3 of the trees a part of God destroying the earth? Of course it is! 

Is turning 1/3 of the sea into blood a "destruction?" Could that fit into God destroying the earth? Certainly it could! 

Would God turning 1/3 of the fresh water into blood be considered as destruction? Of course it could. 

Would God kill 1/3 of earth's population and it NOT be God destroying the sinners in the earth? OF COURSE it would be considered as God destroying the sinners.  My point, in case you missed it, is that the trumpets are judgments of God BEGINNING to destroy the eaarth and the sinners on the earth exactly as the Old Testament prophesied  - IN THE DAY OF THE LORD - which is also called the day of His wrath. These things PROVE that those people were correct, the Day of His wrath had come. 

Therefore, the Day of the Lord, OR the Day of His wrath begins right there at the 6th seal. However, if someone insists it begins with the first trumpet, I would not argue.  So you are 6 trumpets off: wrath begins with the FIRST trumpet, not the 7th. But, God's wrath certainly exists at the 7th.

when the 7th trump sounds it is the elders in heaven that declare wrath is about to begin.   WRONG! It is a Greek Aorist tense verb not inflected to show any timing. If you insist it shows timing, then it shows that wrath started before that point in time, and continues on. You really think God would kill 1/3 of earth's population and it NOT be in wrath?  Please, study the tense of the verb "is come." Blue Letter bible works very well to study the Greek. 

No amount of evidence convinces you.  What is evidence to you may not be evidence to another. It all depends on how each reads scripture. Case in point, "Is come" does not mean what it seems to mean in English. To me it only means wrath "is" "was" or "will be" at that moment. Since I know wrath already started, then it means wrath still IS at the point of the 7th trumpet.

You'll see it with your own eyes, if any of us are still alive when it begins.  God is not setting any appointments for us with His wrath, and I am certainly not going to set one myself. I am not going to be here when the day of His wrath begins. Paul wrote (if you can believe it) that the departing (of the church) must come first, and THEN the man of sin will be revealed. 

So is he going to descend or not? First you say He won't, then you say He will. Which is it? I don't know why you cannot see that one decent of Jesus from heaven, as He was seen to ascend, clears up all doctrinal inconsistencies.  OF COURSE He is going to descend: it is scripture! The disagreement is WHEN. It will be in His Rev. 19 coming, for then He comes to stay. In his 1 thes. 4 coming, He only comes to the clouds. You see, confusion comes only when one tries to force two comings into one.   It is very simple: He comes next FOR His church, but only to the air. He comes the 3rd time WITH His church, and that time He touches down on earth and remains.

Why is it such a problem to see that His coming once for a 2nd time fits all the scriptures?  It doesn't: trying to force two comings into one causes more problems that it solves. That is why millions of people today are pretrib.  It is quite clear in 1 thes. 4 & 5 that He comes only to the air. It is also very clear that in His Rev. 19 coming He comes to remain on earth.

why is it impossible for Jesus to command the angels to gather the resurrected dead, then translate the living to meet Him in the clouds of the air, then finish His descent to the mount of Olives and save the remnant of the nation of Israel, then defeat the armies of the world arrayed against Him?   This is simple also: this secenario simple does not fit all the end times scriptures. It causes more problems that it fixes - if indeed if fixes any.

Case in point: it does not fit Paul's timing in 1 Thes. 5

It does not fit John's timing for the rapture as showing the great crowd too large to number in heaven before the week has begun.

It does not fit the marriage and supper in heaven before Jesus descends. 

It really does not fit the gathering in Matthew 24 for timing issue and where the gathering takes place. 

Sorry, but we are going to continue to disagree.