Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"pretrib and posttrib doctrine agrees that Jesus remains in heaven for the ENTIRE period of the 70th week." is nothing more than a false premise.

If I am mistaken, please, straighten out my thinking here. I was quite sure I knew that much about postrib doctrine. After all, their main claim to fame is that the rapture and His coming is postrib. Does that not mean that He remains in heaven during the "trib?"

The big problem is the fast and loose definitions. It's not said the last week is 'tribulation', the 'trib', or any other such thing. Matt 24 is specific. The only moment of any 'tribulation' is that of great tribulation and it comes after the A of D and before the sign of the coming of the Son of man. Those in the pretrib camp define the whole of the week as 'tribulation' because it suits their doctrine.

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

It does. You just don't like it.  I don't think it does. I think the gathering there is God gathering all the Jews back to Israel. I know it cannot be Paul's rapture because of where it gathers and the timing issue. It has nothing to do with "like." 

You'll see. We all will.  I don't have to "will see;" I can already read in Daniel that the entire 70 weeks is for HIS people. If the first 69 was for the Jews, the chance that the final week will be for the Jews is about 100%. 

This is only true when one equates the entire 70th week with the wrath of God. I know your take on the seals. What will you say when trumps sound?  It is a moot point: I know the entire 70th week is wrath. The first thing God taught me when He began teaching me Revelation was to find the entire 70th week "clearly marked." I know where the 70th week is in Revelation, and I know where wrath begins - BEFORE the week. Then I see evidence of His wrath DURING the week as proof. People get into doctrinal problems when they try to seperate wrath from the 70th week.  I am not going to be here for the trumpets. If you wish to be, that will be between you and God. It is part of DANIEL's people's time. The church is not invited!  

Since there is no such thing as 'church age'...  Sure there is: we are living in it! How can you deny the very time you are living? Has the rapture removed the church yet? Of course not. So the church is still active on earth as the body of Christ and God is still waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in. 

John's chronology? Maybe that's why you don't see it?  Do you disagree with the order in which John wrote these events? Whether or not you acknowledge it, John has a chronology. 

to show His servants what must soon come to pass. DID John write of events that would soon come to pass? I think John did exactly what this says. Take note that it does NOT say ONLY those events what must soon come to pass. 

Wrath begins at the 7th trump.  So you either ignore the 6th seal start of the DAY of His wrath, or you rearrange the 6th seal to match the 7th trumpet.  Which is it? Sorry, but I think Jesus came to the AIR at or a moment before the 6th seal (the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night) and returns right back to heaven for the duration of the week.  For sure wrath EXISTS (is present) at the 7th trumpet. 

The 6th seal is the sign of His coming Sorry, but the 6th seal IS His coming according to 1 Thes. 4 & 5. But He comes only to the air. Perhaps He is SEEN, which could be  why those who flee to the mountains are scared of his face.  Did Paul call the rapture "a coming?" Certainly he did! 

What you are missing here: Old Testament scriptures on the Day of the Lord TELL US He (God) is going to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. Is destroying all the grass and 1/3 of the trees a part of God destroying the earth? Of course it is! 

Is turning 1/3 of the sea into blood a "destruction?" Could that fit into God destroying the earth? Certainly it could! 

Would God turning 1/3 of the fresh water into blood be considered as destruction? Of course it could. 

Would God kill 1/3 of earth's population and it NOT be God destroying the sinners in the earth? OF COURSE it would be considered as God destroying the sinners.  My point, in case you missed it, is that the trumpets are judgments of God BEGINNING to destroy the eaarth and the sinners on the earth exactly as the Old Testament prophesied  - IN THE DAY OF THE LORD - which is also called the day of His wrath. These things PROVE that those people were correct, the Day of His wrath had come. 

Therefore, the Day of the Lord, OR the Day of His wrath begins right there at the 6th seal. However, if someone insists it begins with the first trumpet, I would not argue.  So you are 6 trumpets off: wrath begins with the FIRST trumpet, not the 7th. But, God's wrath certainly exists at the 7th.

Everything you say works if one insists seals 1-5 have opened. I guess we'll see. 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You really think God would kill 1/3 of earth's population and it NOT be in wrath? 

As a nod to history similar death tolls have occurred in the past. Are you going to equate the Spanish flu with God's wrath? What about the death tolls of the Muslim conquests? estimates as high as 270 million were killed over 700 years. 60 million dead at the hands of Lenin. As many by Mao. One could say God's wrath has never ceased. The day of the Lord only begins after the A of D and the revolt per 2 Thess 2.

So yes. The problem is you cannot have the wrath of God in effect if any believers in Jesus are on the earth. Pretrib says so remember? "Not appointed to wrath"? So Pretrib escapes what it defines as wrath but in arrogance and narcissism casts a huge number of believers in Jesus into the very wrath Pretrib says no believer is appointed. 

And the doctrinaires don't even care. They relish the fact they will escape wrath and have no thought for their brothers and sisters which the doctrine says must endure that same wrath they escaped.

 

 

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

Case in point: it does not fit Paul's timing in 1 Thes. 5

It does not fit John's timing for the rapture as showing the great crowd too large to number in heaven before the week has begun.

It does not fit the marriage and supper in heaven before Jesus descends. 

It really does not fit the gathering in Matthew 24 for timing issue and where the gathering takes place. 

Sorry, but we are going to continue to disagree. 

There is no timing in 1 Thess 5 in relation to any other event. "Thief in the night" is not timing, it's an M.O. This is why pretrib is false. So much made up stuff.

The only timing in relation to other events is in 2 Thess 2 and Matt 24 and it's only after the A of D.

I'd get ready. You will see the beast and hear the trumps. 

It's been fun but I'm out.

Blessings to you in Jesus name.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Rev. 11:

¹⁶ And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

¹⁷ Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

¹⁹ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Notice first in verse 17,  is a saying; it is the 24 elders praising. Verse 18 is interesting, to say the least. What is the timing of the nations being angry?  It is in the Greek a " Aorist Passive Indicative" verb. Notice what a Greek Dictionary said:  "The aorist tense (and its grammatical variation, the second aorist tense) has no clear equivalent in English. It is characterized by its emphasis on precise accordance with details, without consideration for past, present or future time! 

In other words, we cannot determine timing from this sentence. All we can know is that the nations were, are or will be angry.  However, considering this is the first time John mentions the nations and anger, I think we can say that at this point in time, they are angry. 

For God's in the next phrase, the Greek is "Second Aorist Active Indicative."   We have the same problem wondering "when." The Greek word does not give away timing. However, Here we have a previous verse that tells us His wrath and the Day of His wrath began earlier, at the 6th seal. 

Notice how this translation put it:

English Standard Version
The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

Yes, when unable to prove the point though normal reading and context lets got to aorists and make up what ever tense we desire. If the aorist is not indicative of tense then why do you place the past tense on the verb? In the real world we would call that existence; it 'is'. SMH

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

As for the time of the judging of the dead, we can read ahead and see that this phrase is prophetic: it will happen some time in the future. We see that in chapter 20.  Same with the rewards; we see that happening in chapter 20 when the saints become judges.  When does God "destroy them" who are destroying the earth? Right here? NO! Again we read ahead and see that God started the destruction in the trumpets, and will continue with the vials. It seems then that this may well be part of the prophecy said by the elders, but here John put it in the 3rd person and just summarize what they said. 

In verse 19, there is a question: it seems that John saw the lightnings, voices, thunderings, an earthquake and great hail while looking into the throne room!  If this is John's meaning, then these things to were part of His vision as prophecy of something coming in the future. 

As you know, I am a stickler for TIMING in Revelation. Chapter 11 begins just days before the midpoint, then covers the midpoint, then covers moments after the midpoint.  Knowing this, common sense tells me that these events don't happen at the midpoint, but are prophetic, pointing to the future. Since I can find these same events later on in the book, I am convinced. 

In chapter 8, the earthquake does not seem to be a cataclysmic earthquake such as at the 7th vial. There is a HUGE difference in mountains being moved and mountains disappearing, never to be seen again, so we can know that the 7th vial earthquake is not the same as the 6th seal earthquake. 

What can it mean that every mountain was moved from its place? I have read that the earthquake in Japan that caused the great tsumami actually changed the earth's axis by over 6 inches. This would have moved every mountain also. It also moved Japan's main island by 8 feet! So Mount Fuji was moved 8 feet. 

Uh huh...EVERY mountain and EVERY island. All over the world. Gigantic earthquake affecting the whole earth. Twice. Again, SMH.

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

From my prospective, there is enough differences in these things that I think John's chronology outweighs the similarities.  I find it very telling that for the most part John used Aorist tense verbs throughout his book, but when writing of the two witnesses, use future tense verbs:

1:3 And 2532 I will give 1325 5692 [power] unto my 3450 two 1417 witnesses 3144, and 2532 they shall prophesy 4395 5692 a thousand 5507 two hundred 1250 [and] threescore 1835 days 2250, clothed in 4016 5772 sackcloth 4526.  I think God did this because so many people try to push their arrival back at the beginning of the week and God wants us to know, they arrive right here just before the midpoint of the week.

 

So pretrib uses the 'not appointed to wrath' clause to escape but is more than willing to throw every other believer into God's wrath willy nilly. The doctrine has no shame.

I'm out.

Be well.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, when unable to prove the point though normal reading and context lets got to aorists and make up what ever tense we desire. If the aorist is not indicative of tense then why do you place the past tense on the verb? In the real world we would call that existence; it 'is'. SMH

Uh huh...EVERY mountain and EVERY island. All over the world. Gigantic earthquake affecting the whole earth. Twice. Again, SMH.

So pretrib uses the 'not appointed to wrath' clause to escape but is more than willing to throw every other believer into God's wrath willy nilly. The doctrine has no shame.

I'm out.

Be well.

Just who would "every other believer" be?  Jews believe in God but not in Jesus, so they are not qualified to escape. But then, as I have said all along, the 70th week is for them: the Jews and descendants of Jacob.

Is God not able to have TWO giant earthquakes?  Did you ever stop to think that there will be TWO times (twice) when God will raise up people long dead? First will come the dead in Christ, around the world. The Gospel has gone around the world. So the dead in Christ are around the world. Those dead bodies from a thousand to nearly two thousand years will have turned back into dust. When God raises the dead in Christ, it is going to cause a worldwide earthquake! And according to 1 Thes. 5, this "sudden destruction" earthquake will come at the same time those who are alive are caught up. It is going to shake or quake around the world; just like the earthquake at the 6th seal. 

But when God raises the Old Testament saints, and those from before the flood - wow! That raising is going to cause a drastic earthquake. Before the flood there were no mountains. The flood caused the mountains. And the particles that used to make up the bodies of those before the flood could well be spread over hundreds or thousands of miles - or be a hundred miles or more deep - but in one fraction of a second, God will bring those particles together to form those bodies. Some have estimated that the population before the flood was close to our population today.  The raising of the Old Testament saints - at the 7th vial or "on the last day" is going to be a cataclysmic earthquake.  Think about it. Think about when Christ died and rose again, when God raised up the elders of the Old Testament. Adam was surely one of them, and others from before the flood. That raising caused an earthquake. It shows us a precedent. When God raises people long dead, it will cause and earthquake.

By the way, God does not way ANYONE left behind. His will is that all believers escape. However, it seems there are some that are determined to set their OWN appointments with His wrath. I cannot imagine why.

I did not create the Greek language. It is what it is. I did not write the Greek / English dictionaries either. I only read them and try to understand. I recommend you study the Aorist tense. Did you ever think: there IS no verb in English that does not include timing information! Therefore to translate a Greek Aorist tense verb accurately is simply impossible! But the translator has to choose either past, present or future. They usually used the past tense. 

When I see two places in Revelation that says that wrath has come, at two different times, it does not make sense - unless one understands that they are Aorist verbs that are not inflected to show timing. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by iamlamad

[Diaste]

20 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Just who would "every other believer" be?  Jews believe in God but not in Jesus, so they are not qualified to escape. But then, as I have said all along, the 70th week is for them: the Jews and descendants of Jacob.

Is God not able to have TWO giant earthquakes?  Did you ever stop to think that there will be TWO times (twice) when God will raise up people long dead? First will come the dead in Christ, around the world. The Gospel has gone around the world. So the dead in Christ are around the world. Those dead bodies from a thousand to nearly two thousand years will have turned back into dust. When God raises the dead in Christ, it is going to cause a worldwide earthquake! And according to 1 Thes. 5, this "sudden destruction" earthquake will come at the same time those who are alive are caught up. It is going to shake or quake around the world; just like the earthquake at the 6th seal. 

But when God raises the Old Testament saints, and those from before the flood - wow! That raising is going to cause a drastic earthquake. Before the flood there were no mountains. The flood caused the mountains. And the particles that used to make up the bodies of those before the flood could well be spread over hundreds or thousands of miles - or be a hundred miles or more deep - but in one fraction of a second, God will bring those particles together to form those bodies. Some have estimated that the population before the flood was close to our population today.  The raising of the Old Testament saints - at the 7th vial or "on the last day" is going to be a cataclysmic earthquake.  Think about it. Think about when Christ died and rose again, when God raised up the elders of the Old Testament. Adam was surely one of them, and others from before the flood. That raising caused an earthquake. It shows us a precedent. When God raises people long dead, it will cause and earthquake.

By the way, God does not way ANYONE left behind. His will is that all believers escape. However, it seems there are some that are determined to set their OWN appointments with His wrath. I cannot imagine why.

I did not create the Greek language. It is what it is. I did not write the Greek / English dictionaries either. I only read them and try to understand. I recommend you study the Aorist tense. Did you ever think: there IS no verb in English that does not include timing information! Therefore to translate a Greek Aorist tense verb accurately is simply impossible! But the translator has to choose either past, present or future. They usually used the past tense. 

When I see two places in Revelation that says that wrath has come, at two different times, it does not make sense - unless one understands that they are Aorist verbs that are not inflected to show timing. 

As I said, its been fun but I'm out.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

The big problem is the fast and loose definitions. It's not said the last week is 'tribulation', the 'trib', or any other such thing. Matt 24 is specific. The only moment of any 'tribulation' is that of great tribulation and it comes after the A of D and before the sign of the coming of the Son of man. Those in the pretrib camp define the whole of the week as 'tribulation' because it suits their doctrine.

Everything you say works if one insists seals 1-5 have opened. I guess we'll see. 

As a nod to history similar death tolls have occurred in the past. Are you going to equate the Spanish flu with God's wrath? What about the death tolls of the Muslim conquests? estimates as high as 270 million were killed over 700 years. 60 million dead at the hands of Lenin. As many by Mao. One could say God's wrath has never ceased. The day of the Lord only begins after the A of D and the revolt per 2 Thess 2.

So yes. The problem is you cannot have the wrath of God in effect if any believers in Jesus are on the earth. Pretrib says so remember? "Not appointed to wrath"? So Pretrib escapes what it defines as wrath but in arrogance and narcissism casts a huge number of believers in Jesus into the very wrath Pretrib says no believer is appointed. 

And the doctrinaires don't even care. They relish the fact they will escape wrath and have no thought for their brothers and sisters which the doctrine says must endure that same wrath they escaped.

 

There is no timing in 1 Thess 5 in relation to any other event. "Thief in the night" is not timing, it's an M.O. This is why pretrib is false. So much made up stuff.

The only timing in relation to other events is in 2 Thess 2 and Matt 24 and it's only after the A of D.

I'd get ready. You will see the beast and hear the trumps. 

It's been fun but I'm out.

Blessings to you in Jesus name.

It's not said the last week is 'tribulation', the 'trib', or any other such thing. Matt 24 is specific. The only moment of any 'tribulation' is that of great tribulation and it comes after the A of D

That is why I use the term "the 70th week." Or "DAniel's 70th week. That is scriptural. However, "the trib" is understood today for the 70th week.  It is not a "fast and loose" definition: it is what it is.  When people say "the trib" they are thinking of a 7 year period of time. When they say "great tribulation," that too is scriptural, but most are referring to the last half of the 7 years. I like to use "days of great tribulation" because Jesus used the word "days" in Matthew 24. 

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"Those days" of what?  Of course, it is understood: "those days of great tribulation."

For the real students of Revelation - those that are determined to understand the intent of the Author - where is the "week" or the 7 years in Revelation? Did God reveal that to us?  I did not know the answer until Jesus spoke to me, telling me I could find the exact midpoint "clearly marked." He even told me how to find it. But almost as an afterthought, He said, "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'" I heard His voice and His words. I can remember them today just is if it was today He said it.  When He said that, somehow I knew without words HOW I could find the entire 70th week "clearly marked:" God would use the same marker He used for the midpoint. 

Diaste, the truth is, God used the 7's as markers: I found the marker for the midpoint first, for that is what He sent me to find. It is the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint. In other words, when the man of sin declares that he is the God of the Jews, the 7th trumpet will be sounded in heaven to mark that time.  ONLY GOD could cause that time to be the end of 6000 years since Adam. 

As soon as I discovered that the "marker" was a "7," I flipped my bible quickly to the 7th vial and read "...It is done."  At that moment I knew I had found what Jesus sent me to find. I quickly flipped to the 7th seal and read about the 30 minutes of silence. I thought: what a perfect way to start the 70th week of Daniel!  Now I know that the trumpet judgments come in the first half of the week. They are judgment and they will be severe: the 6th trumpet killing 1/3 of earth's population.  I think "tribulation" or pressure fits the first half just fine. It will be bad, just not the great pressure when the Beast is hunting down people to behead them. 

Everything you say works if one insists seals 1-5 have opened. I guess we'll see.   God taught me that too. I have written how before.  The context of the first seal is chapters 4 & 5, but most people just pull the first seal OUT Of that context and make it something in our future. That is a mistake.  I challenge you to camp out on chapters 4 & 5 for a while. Try to answer the 3 questions Jesus asked me. 

Are you going to equate the Spanish flu with God's wrath?  "Pestilence" seems to fit the 4th seal or "Death." If it was the black plague that hit europe twice, killing almost 1/3 each time, I would say that was "death" from the 4th seal. Remember, they (seals 2, 3, and 4) were limited by God in their theater of operations to only 1/4 of the earth. If we imagined slicing off 1/4 of the earth like an apple, that 1/4th centered on Jerusalem will include Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. Where did two world wars begin? Europe. And they ended up including the Middle East and Africa.  Where has famines been most frequent? In Africa. The Spanish flu was in Europe - part of that 1/4th. It fits seal 4. I don't classify pestilence as a part of God's wrath. It is what the devil does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He comes only to kill, steal or destroy.  Jesus mentioned pestilence" as a church age happening.  How many did the two world wars kill? Probably millions! And most of those deaths were in that 1/4th of the world. Wars are the devil's doing, not God's wrath. Satan is the god of this world now. 

I agree, God's kids are not appointed to wrath. But God is not angry now. His wrath will begin at the 6th seal event STILL FUTURE. God is now standing with arms open, saying COME!

but in arrogance and narcissism casts a huge number of believers in Jesus into the very wrath Pretrib says no believer is appointed.  Sorry, but this is simply not true. Luke is clear that God has made a way of escape and Paul tells us how: via the rapture. Just remember, "sudden destruction" comes at the same time that those who are alive are snatched up. WE - those in Christ who are alive at the time - get snatched up and get to "live together with Him; but those left behind get sudden destruction. If Paul does not come right out and say it, he hints very strongly that this sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath. Again I ask: WHO is left behind that are "believers?" Millions who CALL themselves "christian" but are not born again. And Jews who believe very strongly in "God" but deny the Son. These are who will be left behind. God is doing all He can do today to get as many born again as possible. It is certainly not His will that any believer is left behind. 

And the doctrinaires don't even care. They relish the fact they will escape wrath and have no thought for their brothers and sisters which the doctrine says must endure that same wrath they escaped.  Why do you think I am here working SO DILIGENTLY to teach that God is PRETRIB?  I don't want anyone left behind. Many times I feel like giving up, but I always come back. EARLY in my Christian walk, God gave me this verse as my life assigment:

2 Timothy 4:2

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

 

I do my best to fulfill His calling.

 

There is no timing in 1 Thess 5 in relation to any other event.   YES THERE IS! The rapture comes JUST (a moment) before wrath! WE get caught up, but THEY get sudden destruction wrath.

 

The only timing in relation to other events is in 2 Thess 2   You don't understand the Author's intent in 2 Thes. 2. That passage is pretrib.

 

Be blessed. But be ready for a trumpet call!

[WilliamL]

On 3/26/2020 at 5:11 PM, Last Daze said:

On 3/26/2020 at 2:21 PM, WilliamL said:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 describes the Rapture of the faithful, with them being taken up in clouds. It says nothing about Jesus returning to earth at that time.

However, the testimony of the two angels does.  There's no need to complicate something so simply stated.  The return of Jesus, when we are gathered to Him, takes place on the last day when the last trumpet sounds.  To expand a little on the previous quote:

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

When Jesus returns, He will appear in the clouds and then descend to earth, just like the angels said.  His ascension took place in one day, and so will His return.  The one who endures to the end will be saved.

"and then descend to earth" is your presumption: "the testimony of the two angels does" not say that. Always beware of presuming something that is not so stated, or directly implied.

Yes, Jesus will return to earth, unto the Mount of Olives, to deliver Israel and Jerusalem. Zech. 14

Yes, Jesus will return to deliver/take up the faithful of His Church. 1 Thes. 4 and 5, etc.

No, these two deliverances are not the same event. The latter takes place well before the former.

 

[WilliamL]

On 3/27/2020 at 4:24 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Only after the remainder of the Seals, then Trumpets, and then Bowls have been manifested does Jesus RETURN to earth to fight against the assembly of the Beast, False Prophet, and the rebellious nations of the earth. This same order to events occurred in the Exodus, and again in David's and Solomon's day, is shown in my blogs:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1980-the-end-times-and-the-exodus-part-1/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

But to repeat: the Parousia/presence of the Lord in world affairs begins at His coming in the clouds, and continues from that time forth. Just as it did during the Exodus, when the LORD's presence was continuous throughout the whole period from His descent upon Mount Sinai all the way up through the 40 years in the wilderness and then the subsequent conquest of Canaan.

It must be that you think the 6th seal begins the week, or whatever you see as the time period following the 6th seal. ANSWER: TRUE.

But it doesn't work. The 7th trumpet signals the beginning of wrath. ANSWER: YOU PROVIDE NO EVIDENCE OF SCRIPTURE AT ALL FOR THIS. BECAUSE THERE IS NONE.

The 6th seal is the sign of the coming of the Lord and wrath begins after this and after the gathering. ANSWER: TRUE.

So it's right after the signs of the 6th seal and just before wrath begins the 7th trumpet is blown and we are gathered. ANSWER: AGAIN, YOU PROVIDE NO EVIDENCE OF SCRIPTURE AT ALL FOR THIS.

Revelation is not a strict chronology. Independently the seals, trumps, and vials are consecutive but the seals and trumps occur mostly concurrently as a group. It's not a one for one, they occur in the same time frame up to the moment of Jesus return at the herald of the 6th seal. After that the 7th trump sounds, Jesus descends from heaven, we are gathered, and wrath begins.  ANSWER: YOU PROVIDE NO EVIDENCE OF SCRIPTURE AT ALL FOR THIS. THE SEVENTH TRUMPET IS BLOWN BY AN ANGEL, WHEREAS JESUS BLOWS THE TRUMPET AT THE ADVENT OF THE RESURRECTCION AND RAPTURE. 1 THES. 4:16

There is a period of time before the coming of the Lord in Matt 24 directly related to the end of the age and which time span and events are seen by all mankind alive at the time of the coming of the Lord. ANSWER: TRUE.

This is the time of the seals and trumps and is not the time of wrath, which only comes after Jesus descends. ANSWER: THIS IS THE TIME OF THE SEALS ONLY, BEFORE AND UP TO THE WRATH. NOTHING IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE MENTIONS ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH THE TIME OF THE TRUMPETS, WHICH OCCUR DURING THE WRATH. AS THE ARTICLES I LISTED ABOVE SHOW QUITE CLEARLY.

 

My latest blog, "The Parousia of the Son of Man," once again shows the sequence of events up to and including the Rapture. When the unbelievers say, in Rev. 6:16 that "the great Day of His Wrath is come/came" [aorist verb], they are testifying of what they see and know; they are not prophesying or speculating. 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2211-the-parousia-of-the-son-of-man/

 

[Diaste]

 

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

But it doesn't work. The 7th trumpet signals the beginning of wrath. ANSWER: YOU PROVIDE NO EVIDENCE OF SCRIPTURE AT ALL FOR THIS. BECAUSE THERE IS NONE.

When the people of earth exclaim 'their wrath has come' it's based solely on the signs that just preceded this observation. Of course it's based on what they know. The saw the signs of Jesus coming and they all know wrath is imminent, not that have been in the time of wrath. It's not possible they were in the time of wrath as they only said this following the sign of Jesus coming and not before. Not a day before. Not a week before. Not years before.

At the 6th seal it is said by the people, 'wrath is come'. In Rev 11 the 7th trumpet sounds and it is also said wrath is come. I wonder which is correct, the people or the elders, or both? In my mind it's both.  And it's not that the aorist does not have tenses. There is no time element as to duration as in 'how long before', 'how long after' or,  total duration.  In both cases, Rev 6 and Rev 11, 'erchomai' is an imperative and it's 'arrival' or several other synonyms that mean something on the order of 'was not here and now is or soon will be'.

 

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So it's right after the signs of the 6th seal and just before wrath begins the 7th trumpet is blown and we are gathered. ANSWER: AGAIN, YOU PROVIDE NO EVIDENCE OF SCRIPTURE AT ALL FOR THIS.

You know all the same passages as I do and there is no sense in posting all that. But we can deduce. We are gathered at the last trump at the end of the age; 'at the last trump, for the trump shall sound'.

As related to the end of the age there is only one set of trumps that has a clear last and final trump and that is the set of 7 trumps from Revelation. Hence, the 7th trump is the last trump as spoken of by Paul at which the gathering occurs. This gathering happens right after the signs of Matt 24 and the same signs of Rev 6. This means the gathering occurs after the signs of the 6th seal, but also at the last trump, which is the 7th. Ergo, the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur near in time to each other.

Joel 1 confirms at least 1 trump has sounded by the time of the A of D:

9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD'S ministers, mourn. (The A of D)

10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth. (1st Trump)

11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished. (1st Trump)

12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, [even] all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men. (1st Trump)

13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God. (The A of D)

14 Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders [and] all the inhabitants of the land [into] the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,

15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. (The day of the Lord has not yet commenced.)

16 Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, [yea], joy and gladness from the house of our God? (The A of D)

17 The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered.

18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field. (1st Trump)

20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness. (Animals have no water. Possible 3rd trump.)

Even the army of Joel 2 sounds very much alike the 6th trump army. It's certain the first trump has sounded by the time of the A of D. It would certainly be a great crisis by which to help institute rationing, or the mark of the beast.

 

 

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Revelation is not a strict chronology. Independently the seals, trumps, and vials are consecutive but the seals and trumps occur mostly concurrently as a group. It's not a one for one, they occur in the same time frame up to the moment of Jesus return at the herald of the 6th seal. After that the 7th trump sounds, Jesus descends from heaven, we are gathered, and wrath begins.  ANSWER: YOU PROVIDE NO EVIDENCE OF SCRIPTURE AT ALL FOR THIS. THE SEVENTH TRUMPET IS BLOWN BY AN ANGEL, WHEREAS JESUS BLOWS THE TRUMPET AT THE ADVENT OF THE RESURRECTCION AND RAPTURE. 1 THES. 4:16

How do you know Jesus blows the trump? "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God".

So you think the Lord shouts, is also the voice of the archangel and He blows the trump? The Lord comes with the trump of God. This scripture does not say the Lord blows the trump, that's an assumption. This scripture says Jesus comes along with the trump, as an accompaniment, not actively sounding the trump.

The angel does blow the trump. Where did that trump come from? The angel made it? Bought it at the trumpet store? Scripture says the angels were given trumps. Those trumps came from God. The whole of Revelation is of God. All seven trumps are the trumps of God. So then the trump of God and the last trump are the same trump.

 

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

This is the time of the seals and trumps and is not the time of wrath, which only comes after Jesus descends. ANSWER: THIS IS THE TIME OF THE SEALS ONLY, BEFORE AND UP TO THE WRATH. NOTHING IN THE OLIVET DISCOURSE MENTIONS ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH THE TIME OF THE TRUMPETS, WHICH OCCUR DURING THE WRATH. AS THE ARTICLES I LISTED ABOVE SHOW QUITE CLEARLY.

I don't read your articles so I can't speak to them. I'll bet I can show relationships between the trumps and birth pangs and GT, but you can believe what you like. I've had my say.

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 3/30/2020 at 7:20 PM, Diaste said:

As related to the end of the age there is only one set of trumps that has a clear last and final trump and that is the set of 7 trumps from Revelation. Hence, the 7th trump is the last trump as spoken of by Paul

On 3/30/2020 at 7:20 PM, Diaste said:

On 3/30/2020 at 3:51 PM, WilliamL said:

But it doesn't work. The 7th trumpet signals the beginning of wrath. ANSWER: YOU PROVIDE NO EVIDENCE OF SCRIPTURE AT ALL FOR THIS. BECAUSE THERE IS NONE.

When the people of earth exclaim 'their wrath has come' it's based solely on the signs that just preceded this observation. Of course it's based on what they know. The saw the signs of Jesus coming and they all know wrath is imminent, not that have been in the time of wrath. It's not possible they were in the time of wrath as they only said this following the sign of Jesus coming and not before. Not a day before. Not a week before. Not years before.  ANSWER: All true.

At the 6th seal it is said by the people, 'wrath is come'. In Rev 11 the 7th trumpet sounds and it is also said wrath is come. I wonder which is correct, the people or the elders, or both? In my mind it's both.  And it's not that the aorist does not have tenses. There is no time element as to duration as in 'how long before', 'how long after' or,  total duration.  In both cases, Rev 6 and Rev 11, 'erchomai' is an imperative and it's 'arrival' or several other synonyms that mean something on the order of 'was not here and now is or soon will be'.     ANSWER: The verbe final bowl judgments. is not an imperative, but an aorist indicative. In Rev. 6, the nations flee in fear; in Rev. 11:18, they are "enraged."  In Rev. 6, the wrath has begun (is come/came); in Rev. 11, the wrath came and is continuing, to be "completed" (15:1) during the bowl judgments.

 

On 3/30/2020 at 7:20 PM, Diaste said:

As related to the end of the age there is only one set of trumps that has a clear last and final trump and that is the set of 7 trumps from Revelation. Hence, the 7th trump is the last trump as spoken of by Paul...

ANSWER: All you state are presumptions, which are belied by the simple fact that angels blow the 7 Trumpets of Revelation, whereas Jesus blows the Last Trump mentioned by Paul, as so stated in 1 Thes. 4:16. Paul knew nothing about the 7 Trumpets, which new revelation came to John after Paul's death. Paul was referring to Hebraic tradition, which says the First Trump was blown on Sinai, and the Latter will be blown on Rosh Hashanah to announce the Great Judgment of God.

On 3/30/2020 at 7:20 PM, Diaste said:

How do you know Jesus blows the trump? "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God".

So you think the Lord shouts, is also the voice of the archangel and He blows the trump?

The Greek says "with a voice of command [as of an officer giving orders]", with a [not the] voice of an archangel, with a [not the] trumpet of God. The latter two fall in line with the idea of Jesus being the one taking charge, not an angel.

On 3/30/2020 at 7:20 PM, Diaste said:

I don't read your articles so I can't speak to them.

Which shows that your mind is made up, and no amount of new information will be admitted to it that might cause you to change it. So be it.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

ANSWER: All you state are presumptions, which are belied by the simple fact that angels blow the 7 Trumpets of Revelation, whereas Jesus blows the Last Trump mentioned by Paul, as so stated in 1 Thes. 4:16. 

1 Thess 4:16

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

This is all it says in 1 Thess 4:16 about the trump of God. It says Jesus descent from heaven is WITH the trump of God. The 'en' here is defined as: en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within).

This verse could just as properly be written: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and during the time of the sounding of the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

How does this tell us Jesus personally is blowing the trumpet at His descent? I'm open to the possibility that He could be but the idea doesn't get any traction here. 

 

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Paul knew nothing about the 7 Trumpets, which new revelation came to John after Paul's death. 

Now how would one go about proving that? You are saying that you know without a doubt that Paul could not have known about the 7 trumps? One, that is trying to prove a thing does not exist, a negative truth. Lots of people try this and all fail. In order for this idea to be true there would have to some statement to that effect. I would accept an indirect statement at this point. 

So if Paul did not or could not know about the 7 trumps then we have to throw out 1 Thess 4 statements about the dead rising first and meeting the Lord in the clouds of the air as that scenario does not appear in the Gospels. Likewise we cannot believe Paul in 1 Cor 15 either. How would he know the details of the gathering at the end of the age? 

How would Paul know 2 Thess 2:4? As far as I can tell that event in any Jewish Temple has not occurred in history. And I mean the specific event of a man in the Temple proclaiming himself to be a god above all that is called god and claiming that he is God. 

I'll tell you how Paul could know all about the end of the age and the trumps. He met Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul was taught by the disciples. We know from this, "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." - John 21

Jesus did a whole lot of things that were not written down. John's hyperbole aside surely Jesus said a whole lot that wasn't recorded. Without being adamant about it because we just don't know, I bet the disciples heard a lot more about the end of the age than we know.

Now before Jesus walked the earth, back in the mists of antiquity, we find Joel and Ezekiel and Zechariah. These people knew quite a bit about the end of the age, the coming of the Lord and the accompanying  glory and destruction so associated. Maybe not about 7 trumps specifically, but the revelation of the end of the age was not biding time till John's exile on Patmos.

 

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Paul was referring to Hebraic tradition, which says the First Trump was blown on Sinai, and the Latter will be blown on Rosh Hashanah to announce the Great Judgment of God.

Paul was referring to Jewish tradition? So you are of the mind Paul used man's tradition to reveal spiritual truth? 

"Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do." He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition." - Mark 7

"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." - Colossians 2

"...your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers" -1 Peter 1

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." - Romans 8

"...making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.' - Mark 7

Pretty sure the traditions of men is not a thing on which Paul relied when speaking to prophecy. Like, at all.

 

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The Greek says "with a voice of command [as of an officer giving orders]", with a [not the] voice of an archangel, with a [not the] trumpet of God. The latter two fall in line with the idea of Jesus being the one taking charge, not an angel.

No doubt. Does not prove the trump of God in 1 Thess 4 the loud trumpet in Matt 24 are blown by Jesus personally, neither that they are not the 7th trump of Revelation. Maybe you are correct but this isn't hard evidence.

Getting technical it's not 'a trump' nor 'the trump'. It's 'kai en salpigx', or 'even with war trumpet'.

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.”

And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: “We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come. The time has come to judge the dead, and to reward Your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear Your name, both small and great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Clearly this is war so that part aligns.

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Which shows that your mind is made up, and no amount of new information will be admitted to it that might cause you to change it. So be it.

That is a cop out. I'm always open to evidence. New information is kinda sketchy as origins are important. I'm not interested in belief systems or world views or perspectives unless it comes from holy writ. That's why I tend to stay away from written works on religion and faith by the hand of man. Seen too many atrocities committed by religious leaders in both  word and deed to have any trust in what mankind says, unless it's supported by the Word. 

Your three conclusions are an example:

Paul could not have known about the trumps.

Paul was speaking to Jewish tradition. 

Jesus is the one blowing the trump.

And you say I make assumptions.