Sin, Salvation, Grace

[Kansasdad]

Sin, Salvation, Grace.

Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

These verses speak directly to the issue of sin and the believer. Clearly God will judge us if we continue to live in sin after we have the knowledge of truth, our punishment will be severe. It also clearly establishes that man can draw away from God and the consequences of that are not good. Furthermore it clearly establishes that by our works

[EricH]

Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

No mention of salvation here. I only see a mention of the definition of true faith. Moses faith motivated him not to stay with Pharaoh. Doesn't really support what you want it to

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

This is not talking about salvation, it is talking about a person who was healed of a sickness that had lasted 38 years and was brought on by sin. No indication that the person was saved. Only that they were healed. Jesus warned them not to sin again, or the condition could return.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Please provide a citation so I can get a context

Hebrews 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

We should really look at the context, audience and the complete quote. Not these isolated verses. Hebrews was written to a Jewish church that was wrestling with reverting back to Judaism. In Hebrews 10 there is a strong encouragement to fellowship together (rather than revert to synagogue)

The writer appeals in 10:23 for them to hold fast to what they confessed and to keep fellowshiping with those of a similar confession.

In verse 26 the challenge is for those who continue in sin after receiving a knowledge of the truth. The real issues are:

1. What is the sin the writer had in mind

2. Did this knowledge of the truth lead to salvation?

It seems from the context that the sin the writer had in mind was not just any sin, but the sin of unbelief or reverting back from Christ. In verse 29 notice they trample underfoot the Son of God and insult the Spirit of grace. In chapter 6 the term "fallen away from the knowledge of the truth is used". The comparison is to those who set aside the law of Moses. Here they are setting aside the gospel.

Was the person saved?

The stumbling point for many is the use of the word sanctification in verse 29:

How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

They will point to the fact that since the verse says the person was sanctified they must have been saved. Santification is simply a gradual freeing from the effects of sin. It should be pointed out, however, that this verb can also point to an external event which has no bearing on salvation. An external sanctification based on an association with God's people but not leading to salvation.

For example 1 Cor 7:13

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

An unbelieveing husband is said to be sanctified by the presence of a believing spouse. No one would hold that if an unbeliever married a believer the unbeliever is saved by assiciation. They are sanctified in the sense that the believers presense exerts a sanctifying influence.

The writer of Hebrews used the verb in this way in Hebrews 9:13

For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,

Here the sanctification is not to salvation, but to the cleansing of the flesh.

What I see being described here is a Jewish person who has been exposed to the fellowship of believers and maybe even made a confession of faith, but it was external only. If they deny the gospel, there is no other sacrifice they can go to for sins (reverting to judaism will not help). If they decide the gospel is not for them, even after experiencing the realities of fellowship (limited sanctification), they will be punished. The sanctification they experienced was external only, by association. They are the seed that was sown in shallow soil. It never took root.

This does not prove that a believer can lose salvation due to sin.

[EricH]

Here are some passages for you to wrestle with if you care to:

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:38-40

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 10:27-29

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:1

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 1:13-15

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

1 Peter 1:3-5

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8-10

[tsth]

1. What is the sin the writer had in mind

2. Did this knowledge of the truth lead to salvation?

It seems from the context that the sin the writer had in mind was not just any sin, but the sin of unbelief or reverting back from Christ. In verse 29 notice they trample underfoot the Son of God and insult the Spirit of grace. In chapter 6 the term "fallen away from the knowledge of the truth is used". The comparison is to those who set aside the law of Moses. Here they are setting aside the gospel

This is in response to another on the repentance thread:

I believe that you misunderstand the power of Grace and what It/He accomplishes in us, in regard to sin.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

You don't have to look very hard, in the NT passages to see what the "Power of God's Grace" is able to work in us.  But it is not forced upon us.  We must be in agreement with Him, to do His Will, lest we frustrate and insult the Spirit of grace.

Hebrews 10: 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

In His Truth,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here are some passages for you to wrestle with if you care to:

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:38-40

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;  and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

So how do you explain Judas' rebellion?  Was he or wasn't he one of the chosen disciples?

John 10:27-29

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:1

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 1:13-15

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,  who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time

And again, I say, that power is God's effectual working grace, which is able to accomplish victory over sin.

1 Peter 1:3-5

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:8-10

And again, I say, that power is God's effectual working grace, which is able to accomplish victory over sin.

You might take a look at the words "power" and "grace". We have totally misunderstood the mystery of Christ in us, and the effectual working power of His Grace that has been made available to us if we believe in Him to do what He says. Col. 1:27-28!!!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

1 Peter 1:10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,

13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Kansasdad]

Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

No mention of salvation here. I only see a mention of the definition of true faith. Moses faith motivated him not to stay with Pharaoh. Doesn't really support what you want it to

Just showing scripture about mans ability to choose. We can choose to follow God or we can choose not to.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

This is not talking about salvation, it is talking about a person who was healed of a sickness that had lasted 38 years and was brought on by sin. No indication that the person was saved. Only that they were healed. Jesus warned them not to sin again, or the condition could return

No what he says is sin no more because there are afflictions much worse than afflictions of the flesh. He does not say his condition will return, he says it will be much worse. Again God is telling us that our sins have consequences much worse than what we know of the flesh.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Please provide a citation so I can get a context

John 3:15

Hebrews 10:26

[EricH]

Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

No mention of salvation here. I only see a mention of the definition of true faith. Moses faith motivated him not to stay with Pharaoh. Doesn't really support what you want it to

Just showing scripture about mans ability to choose. We can choose to follow God or we can choose not to.

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

This is not talking about salvation, it is talking about a person who was healed of a sickness that had lasted 38 years and was brought on by sin. No indication that the person was saved. Only that they were healed. Jesus warned them not to sin again, or the condition could return

No what he says is sin no more because there are afflictions much worse than afflictions of the flesh. He does not say his condition will return, he says it will be much worse. Again God is telling us that our sins have consequences much worse than what we know of the flesh.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Please provide a citation so I can get a context

John 3:15

Hebrews 10:26

[EricH]

1. What is the sin the writer had in mind

2. Did this knowledge of the truth lead to salvation?

It seems from the context that the sin the writer had in mind was not just any sin, but the sin of unbelief or reverting back from Christ. In verse 29 notice they trample underfoot the Son of God and insult the Spirit of grace. In chapter 6 the term "fallen away from the knowledge of the truth is used". The comparison is to those who set aside the law of Moses. Here they are setting aside the gospel

This is in response to another on the repentance thread:

I believe that you misunderstand the power of Grace and what It/He accomplishes in us, in regard to sin.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

You don't have to look very hard, in the NT passages to see what the "Power of God's Grace" is able to work in us.

[tsth]

I know, and I am sorry...........I wish you weren't.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[EricH]

I know, and I am sorry...........I wish you weren't.

In His Love,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So might one try to explain one's self?