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Alternative Timeline? Comparing the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's discuss this. It is not Just you, it is all of us. Are you more self deceived than anyone in previous generations? I doubt that VERY much. When the church came out of the dark ages, there was very little knowledge of the word of God anywhere in the world. Probably a ten year old who grew up in church today has more knowledge of the word of God that many common folk in Martin Luther's day. Dedicated, born again people are today are, without a doubt, less self deceived that the true church in any other generation. We have a greater knowledge of the Word of God than in any previous generation.  If you don't believe this, please explain why.

Knowledge of Does not equal relationship with. A person who is living a meager existence as a serf is more likely to have a closer relationship With Jesus on a personal level, as The message of the cross appeals to the poor and the brokenhearted. I think there in lies the problem, Knowledge of is not relationship with. In Fact human knowledge can be quite deceptive, as this makes us feel superior to others, and can quite easily play into this self deception. I Also do not have to remind you about how the end times are a time of Knowledge increasing, whilst Truth and Wisdom are absent. 

Good Question. 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do you truly believe you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked? Do you really believe this is speaking of YOU? I think this is talking about unregenerate people! They are blind and naked before God. This is CERTAINLY not talking about the true body of Christ on earth today.

Until that night I repented zealously, yes I was, and I did not know it. I was deceiving myself. I had all the attributes of a Christian life, Wife, Kids, Good Home, was a good father, etc But on the inside I was a mess, it was all things I did to look good to the World and to other Christians. Now Mind you I sincerely believed in God and his death burial and resurrection, and I was Christian, I do not doubt that, But I was living in Partial Unbelief. God was distant God, not a personal God. You think the letter to the Laodiceans is talking about the Unregenerate, But this is letter is addressed "Church" of Laodicea, and as Jesus said "the gates of hell shall not prevail against my Church". So I do vehemently disagree with your last statement. If you use that Logic you would have to say that none of the churches addressed in revelation are churches, and give proof as to why they are not churches, which is a definitional fallacy.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Partial unbelief  is there more of this in the true church of today that say in the year 1800? During the first "great awakening," revival was so strong, taverns closed because all the drunks got saved and quit coming. Did the true church back then have "partial unbelief?"  I don't see a difference in the true church of yesterday and the true church of today.  However, with that said, all believers have areas where they have some unbelief. If this was not true, there would be FAR MORE miracles of healing in our various local churches. Christians in general would die much older than the unregenerate.  The truth is, many in yesterday's church as well as today's church have unbelief IN CERTAIN AREAS of their Christian walk.  It is written that anything not of faith is of sin. What exactly are you talking about here?

Lukewarmness  Are YOU lukewarm? I don't think so. Lukewarm people would care less about a forum. I believe this is speaking of church people that have never been taught they must be born agian - so are still unregenerate. WHO exactly are you calling "lukewarm?"  Many Baptists are today just as on fire to get the lost saved as Baptists were a hundred years ago. I don't know if Baptists of today read their bible and spend time praying as much as was usual a hundred years ago. Perhaps in this way they are not as hot as they used to be. I remember years ago when I was young, in the Wesleyan church, frequently someone would get blessed, jump up and shout praises. This does not happen in today's Wesleyan churches! Today they have "respect." Perhaps this is what you mean.

is the cause of the denial  Who is denying what? Please expand here.

Partial Unbelief: The Church of Philadelphia did not doubt the inerrancy of God's Word, In fact this is one of their foundational doctrines, The Church of Laodicea, and the Laodicean age Started around 1900 with the Publication of the Alternate version of scripture presented by Hort and Wescott. ( If memory serves this first one was the RSV?) From that point on questions on the inerrancy of God's word became common place as the Authorized version (KJV) Was questioned on its accuracy. This single event Marked the transition, and defined the partial unbelief. Please Note, Partial unbelief is different from a lack of faith. A lack of faith or Little faith is symptomatic of those who are immature in their faith, Partial unbelief is denial of God's promises while possessing a full knowledge of Him, thus calling the Word of God into question. Do You understand this difference? As an example, take the whole evolution creationism Debate that I am involved with here. When people believed in the inerrancy of the Word of God, they did not question the six day creation, For God's word said it, and they believed it. Now there is a deliberate attempt to say this generation is wiser and therefore has the authority to Question God's word.

Luke Warmness. I was Luke warm. When You come out of a liberal college, with a degree in Sociology, you bet you are Luke Warm. My Change started when I was introduced to a couple of films on creation science, Which began to open my eyes back to the Truth of God's word. which had waned in those Liberal years. Like many of those people posting here, against creationism I viewed creation as irrelevant to the Word of God. When He showed me that I was a Laodicean, however, That title he gives in that letter to this church immediately made Logical sense... "The Amen, the faithful and true witness, The Beginning of the creation of God". I saw right away the prescription to heal the Lukewarmness of the Post modern Generation, which Denied the truth, called into question all reliable witnesses in favor of relativism, and called into question the literal creation of God in the Word of God. I Believed in theistic evolution when I came out of college, I believed that truth was a social construct, and That the word of God was not a science book, and therefore the creation account was a metaphor, But I was still a Christian, I was Born again, I believed that Jesus was God, and confessed it openly, But I denied Him like Peter denied him Thrice. I denied His testimony, I denied His Word, and I denied that He Is the Truth.... the funny thing is I had John 14;6 memorized from my youth, But for some reason, I never personified Jesus as THE TRUTH... When I was shown that I was Laodicean, The fact that He Named himself the TRUTH (THE AMEN) leapt off of the page and John 14:6 Took on a whole new meaning.

I think the above should explain the cause of denial... If Not ask this again, and I will get more in depth.

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I would call JW's as in self denial. I would call Mormon's as in sellf denial. They imagine they are following Jesus. The Jesus they follow is a MADE UP Jesus - not the real one! In General, and born again believer is not in self denial. They have a heart to  serve God.

Jw's and Mormon's Are heresies, and cults. I am talking about the ones that are born again like I was, but possessed a post modern mindset like I did. Go over and read some of the stuff discussing evolution as an example of this here on this site. It should be pretty obvious now that I have explained it to you.

These were some very Good questions on your part, and were not demeaning at all, and they allowed me to explain myself... as I said I am not a good communicator. I glimpsed at your long post below this one, and looks like you Got very defensive again in there. If You ask questions like this and interact like this, you have a teacher's spirit, But when you get defensive you take a turn for the worse. I will reply to the Long Post that came after these comments by you when I have time... Might be tonight, but not certain if I have that much time as that is a very long Post.

I Will leave you with one question...

For Now, RE: this set of questions, I would ask that you self reflect , and examine the whole Pentecostal movement and see if there is this Post modern mindset at work therein? Instead of being defensive about my assessment step outside of your allegiances and be critical of them. I am not here to berate Pentecostals in the least, But to point this out about them, which is also an assessment of all of us, whether we come from a fundamentalist, Baptist or Wesleyan background. this sort of Apostacy is happening in all of them. 

God Bless.    

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1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Knowledge of Does not equal relationship with. A person who is living a meager existence as a serf is more likely to have a closer relationship With Jesus on a personal level, as The message of the cross appeals to the poor and the brokenhearted. I think there in lies the problem, Knowledge of is not relationship with. In Fact human knowledge can be quite deceptive, as this makes us feel superior to others, and can quite easily play into this self deception. I Also do not have to remind you about how the end times are a time of Knowledge increasing, whilst Truth and Wisdom are absent. 

Good Question. 

Until that night I repented zealously, yes I was, and I did not know it. I was deceiving myself. I had all the attributes of a Christian life, Wife, Kids, Good Home, was a good father, etc But on the inside I was a mess, it was all things I did to look good to the World and to other Christians. Now Mind you I sincerely believed in God and his death burial and resurrection, and I was Christian, I do not doubt that, But I was living in Partial Unbelief. God was distant God, not a personal God. You think the letter to the Laodiceans is talking about the Unregenerate, But this is letter is addressed "Church" of Laodicea, and as Jesus said "the gates of hell shall not prevail against my Church". So I do vehemently disagree with your last statement. If you use that Logic you would have to say that none of the churches addressed in revelation are churches, and give proof as to why they are not churches, which is a definitional fallacy.

 

Partial Unbelief: The Church of Philadelphia did not doubt the inerrancy of God's Word, In fact this is one of their foundational doctrines, The Church of Laodicea, and the Laodicean age Started around 1900 with the Publication of the Alternate version of scripture presented by Hort and Wescott. ( If memory serves this first one was the RSV?) From that point on questions on the inerrancy of God's word became common place as the Authorized version (KJV) Was questioned on its accuracy. This single event Marked the transition, and defined the partial unbelief. Please Note, Partial unbelief is different from a lack of faith. A lack of faith or Little faith is symptomatic of those who are immature in their faith, Partial unbelief is denial of God's promises while possessing a full knowledge of Him, thus calling the Word of God into question. Do You understand this difference? As an example, take the whole evolution creationism Debate that I am involved with here. When people believed in the inerrancy of the Word of God, they did not question the six day creation, For God's word said it, and they believed it. Now there is a deliberate attempt to say this generation is wiser and therefore has the authority to Question God's word.

Luke Warmness. I was Luke warm. When You come out of a liberal college, with a degree in Sociology, you bet you are Luke Warm. My Change started when I was introduced to a couple of films on creation science, Which began to open my eyes back to the Truth of God's word. which had waned in those Liberal years. Like many of those people posting here, against creationism I viewed creation as irrelevant to the Word of God. When He showed me that I was a Laodicean, however, That title he gives in that letter to this church immediately made Logical sense... "The Amen, the faithful and true witness, The Beginning of the creation of God". I saw right away the prescription to heal the Lukewarmness of the Post modern Generation, which Denied the truth, called into question all reliable witnesses in favor of relativism, and called into question the literal creation of God in the Word of God. I Believed in theistic evolution when I came out of college, I believed that truth was a social construct, and That the word of God was not a science book, and therefore the creation account was a metaphor, But I was still a Christian, I was Born again, I believed that Jesus was God, and confessed it openly, But I denied Him like Peter denied him Thrice. I denied His testimony, I denied His Word, and I denied that He Is the Truth.... the funny thing is I had John 14;6 memorized from my youth, But for some reason, I never personified Jesus as THE TRUTH... When I was shown that I was Laodicean, The fact that He Named himself the TRUTH (THE AMEN) leapt off of the page and John 14:6 Took on a whole new meaning.

I think the above should explain the cause of denial... If Not ask this again, and I will get more in depth.

Jw's and Mormon's Are heresies, and cults. I am talking about the ones that are born again like I was, but possessed a post modern mindset like I did. Go over and read some of the stuff discussing evolution as an example of this here on this site. It should be pretty obvious now that I have explained it to you.

These were some very Good questions on your part, and were not demeaning at all, and they allowed me to explain myself... as I said I am not a good communicator. I glimpsed at your long post below this one, and looks like you Got very defensive again in there. If You ask questions like this and interact like this, you have a teacher's spirit, But when you get defensive you take a turn for the worse. I will reply to the Long Post that came after these comments by you when I have time... Might be tonight, but not certain if I have that much time as that is a very long Post.

I Will leave you with one question...

For Now, RE: this set of questions, I would ask that you self reflect , and examine the whole Pentecostal movement and see if there is this Post modern mindset at work therein? Instead of being defensive about my assessment step outside of your allegiances and be critical of them. I am not here to berate Pentecostals in the least, But to point this out about them, which is also an assessment of all of us, whether we come from a fundamentalist, Baptist or Wesleyan background. this sort of Apostacy is happening in all of them. 

God Bless.    

Recently (within a year or two or three) I visited two Assembly of God churches here in Tulsa. I asked the Pastors how long it had been since they had a message in tongues with interpretation. But of they said it had been YEARS! In other words, it seems these churches are really no longer "Pentecostal."  Yes, I agree, many churches are drying up. They all need a revival very badly!  It is not just one denomination, it seems to be in all denominations. One of the reasons I left the Assembly of God church was I found more truth of the world elsewhere. Just in my lifetime I have seen quite a change in church life. When I was young in the Wesleyan church, people would all pray together loudly! Now, in most churches, that is not considered "polite!" Most people back then came on Sunday night and then on Wednesday evening.  Today few churches have a midweek service! Some don't even have a Sunday night service.

I have not much been involved with any other churches for the past 20 years or so, but I read a lot about what is going on. Many churches have going into the "ultra-grace" message: that His grace was SO sufficient one man said he would be embarrassed to go to God and confess sin. They are now teaching that 1 John 1:9 is for sinners, not for saints.

I will have to agree with you that there is a different mindset in most churches today - different then when I was young. I don't know if I would call it a "post modern" anything. I don't much go out for these kinds of names. All I can say is, the churches (meaning the people in them) have backslidden! They have become lukewarm to some extent.  If I could pin it down more, I would say the individuals in these churches have lost their first love. I would guess most individuals don't ever take time to pray by themselves, or worship God by themselves. I would guess few every study their bible any more.  Are they falling away? Perhaps some. But I think a better phrase would be they are drying up for lack of fellowship with their God.

Over my life, I have been a very self-driven person, in work and in church. When I have noticed my fellowship with God was waning, i fasted lunch and took a prayer walk. Some times I forced myself to spend an hour in the morning early before anything else, and an hour in the evening before sleep with Him.  I will freely admit that after 4 months of that I was FAR closer to Him than I am now. I must have had supernatural help them!    However, for much of my Christian walk I have been close enough to God to hear His voice speaking to me. I FIRMLY believe the verse, "My sheep know my voice."  My weak area is reading my bible. I will admit I am poor at that. I study at times, but just to read and feed has been my weak point. I could no much better.

By the way, I try not to bad mouth ANY other Christian or church. It is not wise. I have cautioned you on this. You could be talking against the very Holy Spirit you claim to love! You may observe something and think: that could not be the Holy Spirit. Well, let God deal with it and you don't talk about it!  It is not wise to take against the Holy Spirit. It grieves Him.

I must add, I also have attended several Burmese Assemblies of God churches here in Tulsa in the last 7 years or so. They are VERY alive in Christ!  They spend much time praying, they fast, and they love God. It is like stepping back 30 years in other A of G churches.  Not all churches are drying up! Thank God. There are a few churches now that are praying for revival. It is coming.

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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Acts 2: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Who did the speaking? THEY did...not  the Holy Spirit for them. He gave the utterance, THEY spoke.

1 Cor. 14:; For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Wow, that was Long... Anyway, I will probably break this down, So please wait to respond. Here is the context of the two verses you pointed out. I have already gone over the one in Acts 2 with you, how all those people heard them speaking in their own language, and it proceeds to list those languages off, and I will go over your supposed "Gift of Hearing" later. 

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2  For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 

Trying to be kind here, But as anyone can see the two verses you quoted to support your first Point are ripped way out of context. Here is the Point you made. So glance down as I answer these points. Unfruitful is unfruitful, meaning that this sort of speaking in tongues does not edify, which is what this passage clearly is speaking about. If Something is unfruitful, Why continue doing this... What else is unfruitful? https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G175&t=KJV Take a peek at where else this word is Used and you will get a picture, and Note also that Both 2 Peter and Jude as per our previous discussion on saints. SO, Yes I understand, Fully, and agree with Paul that speaking in tongues like this is unfruitful.  

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

DH, WHY is his understanding "unfruitful?" Do you know? Do you understand? Please, allow me to explain. in Chapters 12 & 14, when Paul talks of tongues, interpretation of tongues, or prophecy, ALL work the same way. All are supernatural speaking.  They all come from the Human spirit where the Holy Spirit resides. God opens a channel between the human spirit and our physical mouth so the Holy Spirit gives words (sounds) to speak that are passed straight to the mouth, and BYPASS the mind! Someone prophesying has no clue what they are going to say until the words come out and are heard. Someone praying in tongues has no idea what they are saying but for a different reason: they cannot be understood even after they are spoken.

I Largely agree with you on supernatural speaking, Whether that is Prophecy or tongues, or teaching with Wisdom from God, But there are some rules that I feel You have neglected.

1 I Have  posted this verse several times now, and I do not think you have responded to it once, and this is One of the rules of discerning the Spirits...

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All too often, we see charismatics using the Holy Ghost to draw attention to either the People themselves (Preachers, Etc.) or drawing attention to the Spirit in them. But the Holy Ghost will glorify Jesus, not the men, or Himself. I Have made this point numerous times to you, But it does not seem to make sense to you, or you ignore it?? I Have seen Prayers being prayed to the Holy Ghost in these charismatic churches as well, which violates this as well, which also violates this rule. When I see this, I Know that whoever this spirit is, it is not the Holy Ghost. 

2 the Holy Ghost bring unity, through the bond of peace. Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Eph. 4:3)

When I read your comment, what The Holy Ghost drew my attention to was the dividedness of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement. Earlier you said there was always resistance to a new move of the Holy Ghost, here you speak of the divides within the Pentecostal movement. You speak of the "Devil" slipping into the revival to stop it, But a True move of the Holy Ghost pervades and overcomes this attack, because of the Bond of peace. then there is the "new Move" of the Holy Ghost... The Only Move of the real Holy Ghost is to place you on your knees in repentance, Not in setting some new trend for the next denomination of the Movement.

3 the Holy Ghost is The Spirit of Truth. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:16-17)

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:5-6)

This is a Point I would like to expound on further. In My previous comment I spoke to you about Post modernism in the Laodicean Church. The Willful questioning of and Doubting of the Inerrancy of the Word of God, and the Truth thereof. Jesus is the Truth (Personified) as I said to You, The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth, But amongst the Pentecostals there is a willful aversion to the Truth of the Word of God, and many of those denominations are willfully adopting worldly stances on things such as LGTPQ (or whatever letters they are going by now) rights, Gay Marriage, Feminism, The divine feminine, And what not. All of these things clear violations of the Truth of the Word of God. Although this worldliness goes across all denominational sectors, The Churches of the Charismatic Movement in General are leading the charge. Read the following article if you have time, Some of the churches spoken of are highly successful, with large congregations That you boast do much about, But are.... Here this verse comes to mind...

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Matthew 23:15)

http://apprising.org/2012/05/05/homosexuality-megachurches-and-andy-stanley/ 

I Will get back to you on the rest probably over the weekend. What The Holy Ghost has given me eyes to see is the sickness in this Laodicean church age. The Question is are we willing to repent and overcome?  

 

 

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4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Recently (within a year or two or three) I visited two Assembly of God churches here in Tulsa. I asked the Pastors how long it had been since they had a message in tongues with interpretation. But of they said it had been YEARS! In other words, it seems these churches are really no longer "Pentecostal."  Yes, I agree, many churches are drying up. They all need a revival very badly!  It is not just one denomination, it seems to be in all denominations. One of the reasons I left the Assembly of God church was I found more truth of the world elsewhere. Just in my lifetime I have seen quite a change in church life. When I was young in the Wesleyan church, people would all pray together loudly! Now, in most churches, that is not considered "polite!" Most people back then came on Sunday night and then on Wednesday evening.  Today few churches have a midweek service! Some don't even have a Sunday night service.

I have not much been involved with any other churches for the past 20 years or so, but I read a lot about what is going on. Many churches have going into the "ultra-grace" message: that His grace was SO sufficient one man said he would be embarrassed to go to God and confess sin. They are now teaching that 1 John 1:9 is for sinners, not for saints.

I will have to agree with you that there is a different mindset in most churches today - different then when I was young. I don't know if I would call it a "post modern" anything. I don't much go out for these kinds of names. All I can say is, the churches (meaning the people in them) have backslidden! They have become lukewarm to some extent.  If I could pin it down more, I would say the individuals in these churches have lost their first love. I would guess most individuals don't ever take time to pray by themselves, or worship God by themselves. I would guess few every study their bible any more.  Are they falling away? Perhaps some. But I think a better phrase would be they are drying up for lack of fellowship with their God.

Over my life, I have been a very self-driven person, in work and in church. When I have noticed my fellowship with God was waning, i fasted lunch and took a prayer walk. Some times I forced myself to spend an hour in the morning early before anything else, and an hour in the evening before sleep with Him.  I will freely admit that after 4 months of that I was FAR closer to Him than I am now. I must have had supernatural help them!    However, for much of my Christian walk I have been close enough to God to hear His voice speaking to me. I FIRMLY believe the verse, "My sheep know my voice."  My weak area is reading my bible. I will admit I am poor at that. I study at times, but just to read and feed has been my weak point. I could no much better.

By the way, I try not to bad mouth ANY other Christian or church. It is not wise. I have cautioned you on this. You could be talking against the very Holy Spirit you claim to love! You may observe something and think: that could not be the Holy Spirit. Well, let God deal with it and you don't talk about it!  It is not wise to take against the Holy Spirit. It grieves Him.

I must add, I also have attended several Burmese Assemblies of God churches here in Tulsa in the last 7 years or so. They are VERY alive in Christ!  They spend much time praying, they fast, and they love God. It is like stepping back 30 years in other A of G churches.  Not all churches are drying up! Thank God. There are a few churches now that are praying for revival. It is coming.

Just a Quick response to this, I appreciate your honesty on this. I Am critical of Pentecostalism/ Charismatics, because I am dealing with you, I am the same when dealing with a Baptist or a Methodist. Grieving the Holy Ghost is to not question the actions and judge the prophecies, and accept them Instead of testing the Spirits. Notice, all of those denominations are named after men and doctrines, the Church is Unified in Christ Jesus who is the head. 

I Get a lot of grief from Christians when I write about the Unity of the Spirit. They automatically assume I am talking ecumenism and compromised Christianity, Because that is what their denominations teach. Then when I speak of us being Laodiceans, I am accused of being Worldwide church of God or SDA proponent, because apparently they had some sort of similar teachings. I Am accused By liberal Christians as being conservative, and by conservatives of being Liberal. I am accused By Arminians of being a Calvinist, and Calvinists of being an Arminian. I Have quoted both charismatic and fundamentalists articles on this sight.

All denominations have something right, and something wrong, and when you point to the wrong, they get defensive, and when you point to the good they are content, and then someone who opposes them calls you out. No one wants to hear about their errors. But that is what I do, because that is what He taught me to do. I do not do this to create strife, and when this happens I am grieved by it. I have ben doing this now for close to 10 years, And each time I learn something through the interactions, A depth of understanding that I did not have before. I Even get corrected at times, (Rarely :) ) but it is mutual respect that is gained. Most nights I go to sleep in prayer for those I have interacted with, even if it has been a nasty back and forth. I have "spoken" many times in the way you described, where the Holy Ghost moves over me, and I do not even think I was capable of writing like that. Other times I write something, and it takes serious faith to hit the post comment button, But I must, because What I write is not of me, and from me, But from Holy Ghost giving me utterance. There have been times, when Led by the Holy Ghost, I have posted a comment on scripture, and could not defend that position until a later time, But I knew what I was doing was from God, so I had to figure it out myself. This is my "Tongues", If you will. It is a Language that both confronts and edifies. This is the Language of the saints. This is the tongues of the Laodicean overcomer. We speak the truth of the Word of God. Some receive those Words, some Reject them. Sometimes I just plant a seed that someone else will water, Sometimes I water a seed someone else planted. God Grants the growth. I am stubborn to a fault, Persistent because I know the consequences of rejection, Confrontational, because He is a Holy God and demands our best and not compromise with the World.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Here is a Word for Both of us..., Let's not skip chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians, As this is the basket that holds the apples and the oranges.

God Bless. 

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5 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Just a Quick response to this, I appreciate your honesty on this. I Am critical of Pentecostalism/ Charismatics, because I am dealing with you, I am the same when dealing with a Baptist or a Methodist. Grieving the Holy Ghost is to not question the actions and judge the prophecies, and accept them Instead of testing the Spirits. Notice, all of those denominations are named after men and doctrines, the Church is Unified in Christ Jesus who is the head. 

I Get a lot of grief from Christians when I write about the Unity of the Spirit. They automatically assume I am talking ecumenism and compromised Christianity, Because that is what their denominations teach. Then when I speak of us being Laodiceans, I am accused of being Worldwide church of God or SDA proponent, because apparently they had some sort of similar teachings. I Am accused By liberal Christians as being conservative, and by conservatives of being Liberal. I am accused By Arminians of being a Calvinist, and Calvinists of being an Arminian. I Have quoted both charismatic and fundamentalists articles on this sight.

All denominations have something right, and something wrong, and when you point to the wrong, they get defensive, and when you point to the good they are content, and then someone who opposes them calls you out. No one wants to hear about their errors. But that is what I do, because that is what He taught me to do. I do not do this to create strife, and when this happens I am grieved by it. I have ben doing this now for close to 10 years, And each time I learn something through the interactions, A depth of understanding that I did not have before. I Even get corrected at times, (Rarely :) ) but it is mutual respect that is gained. Most nights I go to sleep in prayer for those I have interacted with, even if it has been a nasty back and forth. I have "spoken" many times in the way you described, where the Holy Ghost moves over me, and I do not even think I was capable of writing like that. Other times I write something, and it takes serious faith to hit the post comment button, But I must, because What I write is not of me, and from me, But from Holy Ghost giving me utterance. There have been times, when Led by the Holy Ghost, I have posted a comment on scripture, and could not defend that position until a later time, But I knew what I was doing was from God, so I had to figure it out myself. This is my "Tongues", If you will. It is a Language that both confronts and edifies. This is the Language of the saints. This is the tongues of the Laodicean overcomer. We speak the truth of the Word of God. Some receive those Words, some Reject them. Sometimes I just plant a seed that someone else will water, Sometimes I water a seed someone else planted. God Grants the growth. I am stubborn to a fault, Persistent because I know the consequences of rejection, Confrontational, because He is a Holy God and demands our best and not compromise with the World.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Here is a Word for Both of us..., Let's not skip chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians, As this is the basket that holds the apples and the oranges.

God Bless. 

Faith works by love.  Once God spoke to a favorite preacher of mine (now dead) and told him to go and speak to another preacher: that he must judge himself in three areas - or he was going to die. One, the man was very over weight. Two, the man was just plain mean. I forget the third area. My favorite preacher did not want to do this - but finally he did.  The man said he was not going to change. A month or so later, he died while preaching!

The sad thing is, this man that died had some of the most incredible miracles during the healing revival in the 50's. He had the "word of knowledge" to an extent greater than most others. Many times cancers fell off in his hand. He was a great blessing due to the miracles of healing, but he took himself out because he would not judge himself.

All true Christians should walk in love.

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10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Wow, that was Long... Anyway, I will probably break this down, So please wait to respond. Here is the context of the two verses you pointed out. I have already gone over the one in Acts 2 with you, how all those people heard them speaking in their own language, and it proceeds to list those languages off, and I will go over your supposed "Gift of Hearing" later. 

1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2  For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 

Trying to be kind here, But as anyone can see the two verses you quoted to support your first Point are ripped way out of context. Here is the Point you made. So glance down as I answer these points. Unfruitful is unfruitful, meaning that this sort of speaking in tongues does not edify, which is what this passage clearly is speaking about. If Something is unfruitful, Why continue doing this... What else is unfruitful? https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G175&t=KJV Take a peek at where else this word is Used and you will get a picture, and Note also that Both 2 Peter and Jude as per our previous discussion on saints. SO, Yes I understand, Fully, and agree with Paul that speaking in tongues like this is unfruitful.  

I Largely agree with you on supernatural speaking, Whether that is Prophecy or tongues, or teaching with Wisdom from God, But there are some rules that I feel You have neglected.

1 I Have  posted this verse several times now, and I do not think you have responded to it once, and this is One of the rules of discerning the Spirits...

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All too often, we see charismatics using the Holy Ghost to draw attention to either the People themselves (Preachers, Etc.) or drawing attention to the Spirit in them. But the Holy Ghost will glorify Jesus, not the men, or Himself. I Have made this point numerous times to you, But it does not seem to make sense to you, or you ignore it?? I Have seen Prayers being prayed to the Holy Ghost in these charismatic churches as well, which violates this as well, which also violates this rule. When I see this, I Know that whoever this spirit is, it is not the Holy Ghost. 

2 the Holy Ghost bring unity, through the bond of peace. Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Eph. 4:3)

When I read your comment, what The Holy Ghost drew my attention to was the dividedness of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement. Earlier you said there was always resistance to a new move of the Holy Ghost, here you speak of the divides within the Pentecostal movement. You speak of the "Devil" slipping into the revival to stop it, But a True move of the Holy Ghost pervades and overcomes this attack, because of the Bond of peace. then there is the "new Move" of the Holy Ghost... The Only Move of the real Holy Ghost is to place you on your knees in repentance, Not in setting some new trend for the next denomination of the Movement.

3 the Holy Ghost is The Spirit of Truth. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:16-17)

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:5-6)

This is a Point I would like to expound on further. In My previous comment I spoke to you about Post modernism in the Laodicean Church. The Willful questioning of and Doubting of the Inerrancy of the Word of God, and the Truth thereof. Jesus is the Truth (Personified) as I said to You, The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth, But amongst the Pentecostals there is a willful aversion to the Truth of the Word of God, and many of those denominations are willfully adopting worldly stances on things such as LGTPQ (or whatever letters they are going by now) rights, Gay Marriage, Feminism, The divine feminine, And what not. All of these things clear violations of the Truth of the Word of God. Although this worldliness goes across all denominational sectors, The Churches of the Charismatic Movement in General are leading the charge. Read the following article if you have time, Some of the churches spoken of are highly successful, with large congregations That you boast do much about, But are.... Here this verse comes to mind...

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Matthew 23:15)

http://apprising.org/2012/05/05/homosexuality-megachurches-and-andy-stanley/ 

I Will get back to you on the rest probably over the weekend. What The Holy Ghost has given me eyes to see is the sickness in this Laodicean church age. The Question is are we willing to repent and overcome? 

No, you missed it in Paul's use of "unfruitful."  Neither did I take anything out of context. Let's look together:

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God  Do you believe Paul's first phrase? I doubt it, but it is true anyway. You probably think tongues are meant to talk to people in their own language. Paul disagrees with you and with Tozer.

for no man understandeth him  Paul explains WHY the tongues are talking to God: NO MAN understands.  Can any man understand "gibberish?"  Tongues in general is not in any human language - especially in the language of the speaker! Why would God do that? So He can get us to pray what HE wants prayed! Example, someone beats his wife. He prays in tongues fervently, imagining he is praying for a new Cadillac, but in reality the Holy Ghost is praying that he stops beating his wife. For the most part, when anyone spends any real time praying in tongues, the Holy Spirit will go after what ever is keeping the speaking from getting closer to God. In other words, tongues is for the benefit of the speaker.

howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.  Mysteries to God? Of course not! If not man can understand, it is mysteries to anyone hearing. No one has a clue what is being said.

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. Now we see how Paul purpose is a paradigm: He is comparing words of prophecy (words in the listener's own language) to tongues (words no one understands) He is displaying the benefits and/or problems of each. In Paul's mind, edifying the many is simply better than edifying the one. This then would be the context. Paul goes back and forth speaking of one and then the other. Keep in mind, BOTH tongues and prophecy are supernatural speaking by the Holy Spirit.

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself  Just as speaking in the language of the people edifies the many (They understand what is being said) speaking in tongues edifies the speaker of tongues - it is HELPING him or her, like charging up a battery.

but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.  Again Paul is preferring the many over the one. It is better to edify 1o or 20 people than to edify one.

I would that ye all spake with tongues  Paul knows that speaking in tongues is a GOOD THING, edifying the speaker.

but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. WHY is the one prophesying greater in some circumstances? Very simple, the many getting edified is greater than the one being edified.

The context is about which is better: tongues in a language no man understands, versus prophecy which is in the common language of the speaker (and supposedly of the listeners.)

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

Paul is continuing on: since no man understands tongues, it is of NO PROFIT to others: same thought he made in the first five verses. "By revelation, knowledge, prophesying, doctrine is speaking of leader speaking in the language of the people so the listeners get edified. same thought he made in the first five verses. In a gathering of people, it is better to speak in their own language, for edifying the many is better than edifying the one.

And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?   No new thought here: sounds must be distinct and something the brain has heard before and understands.

For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?   Same thoughtL sounds must be what the listeners can understand.

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.   Same thought: tongues are gibberish (no man can understand) so if a speaking is talking in tongues, NO ONE KNOWS what is spoken.

10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.  Every voice is significant in some way.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.   Same thought as before: if no one can understand the speaking of tongues, it is as if they are barbarians, each with a different language.  Very after verse, Paul is proving that tongues are in gibberish and no man understands. This IS Paul's context.  He is proving verse after verse what he said in verse two: no man understands.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.   He has already said that prophecy - supernatural speaking in the language of the people is better than tongues - supernatural speaking in gibberish.  (I am using "gibberish" here as any tongues the Holy Spirit creates anywhere in the world when someone received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. (In Tibet tongues may sound different than in Chicago.)

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.  The interpreting of tongues is of course understood to be in the language of the local people so they are edified. So if I want to edify others, I should pray that I can interpret my own tongues.  This is not some new idea: it is keeping with his context of edifying the many is better than edifying the one.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.   Notice the "FOR:" he is continuing the same thoughts as before: this is not going to be anything new.  What has he been saying in 13 verses? That when someone speaks in tongues, no man understands. My friend, this IS the context: tongues are not understood because they are "gibberish." Paul has said this same thing 13 different ways now! But here in verse 14 he is going to say it the 14th way: if I am praying in an unknown (no one present knows - no one in the world knows) tongues:

1. It is the human spirit praying. This is a new thought. Up until know, we did not know that tongues was coming from the human spirit.

2. The speaker of the tongues has no idea what he is saying. It is like a foreign language to him also. Why? It is "gibberish."  That is what Paul is saying when he says the mind of the speaker of tongues IS NOT EDIFIED! Why not edified? "gibberish" cannot be understood. What did Paul say in verse 2? "For NO MAN understands." Would this not also include the speaking of tongues? Of course it would I attend a Burmese church every Sunday - because I like the people. But I cannot understand Burmese! Is my understanding then fruitful or unfruitful? It is unfruitful because I cannot understand one word. UNLESS someone interprets! Then I get understanding.

I understand preconceptions are like solid concrete barriers to understanding. All I can say is, take your preconceived glasses OFF.  Read it without any preconceived ideas. It is not easy but it can be done.  My guess is, you are still approaching these verses with the theory that tongues are some human language somewhere else in the world. The truth is, that theory is BOGUS. Paul is clear: no man understands.

If Something is unfruitful, Why continue doing this. You have missed Paul's context entirely! It is the UNDERSTANDING that is unfruitful. Understanding is in our natural realm. Tongues comes from the Holy Spirit to our spirit. Paul says it is BENEFICIAL to the human spirit as it edifies or builds up or charges up. It is only unfruitful  to the MIND. Why is that? It is SO simple: because our mind does not understand gibberish.

Please, my friend, keep in mind, though I cannot understand my gibberish, God the father CERTAINLY understands and answers. Always remember, tongues is PRAYER - talking to God - and prayer is ALWAYS a good thing. But tongues is special, it is God the Holy Spirit praying FOR THE SPEAKER, but in a way the speaker does not understand so he or she cannot interfere! What did Pauls say:  "he that speaks in tongues speaks not unto man but unto God." It is PRAYER!

SO, Yes I understand, Fully, and agree with Paul that speaking in tongues like this is unfruitful.    No, you missed his entire meaning due to preconceptions.

Paul said that the speaker of tongues is EDIFIED. That is the opposite of unfruitful. Why is this so difficult?

What Paul REALLY said, is it is unfruitful to the MIND! To our THINKING. The truth is, tongues were not created by God to enhance and edify our mind! It is to edify our SPIRIT.  All I can say is, read it again and again until you get it!

 

Added later: Paul used that word at the beginning:  "no man understandeth him "

This is speaking of the mental or intellectual realm. Our brains learn to hear words and put understanding to them. But tongues are not meant to be "understood." Why would you even imagine that God would created something worthless? It is because you don't understand!

Edited by iamlamad

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11 hours ago, dhchristian said:

...

I Largely agree with you on supernatural speaking, Whether that is Prophecy or tongues, or teaching with Wisdom from God, But there are some rules that I feel You have neglected.

1 I Have  posted this verse several times now, and I do not think you have responded to it once, and this is One of the rules of discerning the Spirits...

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All too often, we see charismatics using the Holy Ghost to draw attention to either the People themselves (Preachers, Etc.) or drawing attention to the Spirit in them. But the Holy Ghost will glorify Jesus, not the men, or Himself. I Have made this point numerous times to you, But it does not seem to make sense to you, or you ignore it?? I Have seen Prayers being prayed to the Holy Ghost in these charismatic churches as well, which violates this as well, which also violates this rule. When I see this, I Know that whoever this spirit is, it is not the Holy Ghost. 

2 the Holy Ghost bring unity, through the bond of peace. Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Eph. 4:3)

When I read your comment, what The Holy Ghost drew my attention to was the dividedness of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement. Earlier you said there was always resistance to a new move of the Holy Ghost, here you speak of the divides within the Pentecostal movement. You speak of the "Devil" slipping into the revival to stop it, But a True move of the Holy Ghost pervades and overcomes this attack, because of the Bond of peace. then there is the "new Move" of the Holy Ghost... The Only Move of the real Holy Ghost is to place you on your knees in repentance, Not in setting some new trend for the next denomination of the Movement.

3 the Holy Ghost is The Spirit of Truth. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:16-17)

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:5-6)

This is a Point I would like to expound on further. In My previous comment I spoke to you about Post modernism in the Laodicean Church. The Willful questioning of and Doubting of the Inerrancy of the Word of God, and the Truth thereof. Jesus is the Truth (Personified) as I said to You, The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth, But amongst the Pentecostals there is a willful aversion to the Truth of the Word of God, and many of those denominations are willfully adopting worldly stances on things such as LGTPQ (or whatever letters they are going by now) rights, Gay Marriage, Feminism, The divine feminine, And what not. All of these things clear violations of the Truth of the Word of God. Although this worldliness goes across all denominational sectors, The Churches of the Charismatic Movement in General are leading the charge. Read the following article if you have time, Some of the churches spoken of are highly successful, with large congregations That you boast do much about, But are.... Here this verse comes to mind...

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Matthew 23:15)

http://apprising.org/2012/05/05/homosexuality-megachurches-and-andy-stanley/ 

I Will get back to you on the rest probably over the weekend. What The Holy Ghost has given me eyes to see is the sickness in this Laodicean church age. The Question is are we willing to repent and overcome? 

I Largely agree with you on supernatural speaking, Whether that is Prophecy or tongues, or teaching with Wisdom from God  You are mixing apples and oranges again!  Supernatural speaking comes from the Holy Spirit to the human spirit and then straight to the mouth, WITHOUT GOING THROUGH OUR MIND. In other words, in prophecy (Which is the speaker's own language) God the Holy Spirit gives words to the human spirit who passes the words to the mouth. The speaker has no idea what he or she is saying until the words are spoken and then heard. One certainly can teach with God's wisdom but it is not supernatural speech from the spirit to the mouth, bypassing the brain. Comparing prophecy and tongues is comparing apples to apples, just a different variety of apples.

Question: has words every came out of your mouth that did not go through your mind first? The normal pathway would be from one part of our mind to the speech part of our mind, so our mind KNOWS exactly what we say.

when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak..

This is speaking of the INDWELLING Holy Spirit - not the anointing holy Spirit. He, the indwelling Holy Spirit is our guide, He is also our comforter. In chapter 14 John wrote, " or he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." If people are lost, He points them to Jesus. He convicts the lost of sin. It is our own human spirit, once we are born again, that convicts us of sin.  By the way, this is not "discerning of spirits" nor is it even related.

There is a HUGE difference in we has humans praising the Holy Spirit as well as Jesus and the Father. We are certainly allowed to praise any aspect of our God. I frequently thank the Holy Spirit for putting up with me!  it does not seem to make sense to you, or you ignore it??  I don't know how to answer.  Scriptural we are to ask the Father in Jesus name. But is there a scripture somewhere that we cannot talk to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit? If there is such a scripture, please point it out. I talk to Jesus frequently too!  drawing attention to the Spirit in them  This is not the Holy Spirit drawing attention to Himself: it is a HUMAN drawing attention to the Holy Spirit. There is a huge difference. It is giving glory to Him. God loves when people talk good things about Him! the Holy Ghost will glorify Jesus, not the men, or Himself   True. But He only does this when He is causing supernatural speech, such as prophecy. I have never heard a prophecy glorifying the Holy Spirit.  You should know by now in your life, people occasionally say stupid things! It happens in Pentecostal churches and it happens in Baptist churches. Men are men in any church. I think here you are making a mountain out of a mole hill, so to speak.

I Have seen Prayers being prayed to the Holy Ghost  I don't know that I have ever seen this. I don't think there is a verse that prevents this. But then, I don't know why anyone would pray to the Holy Spirit when they could just as well pray to our Father. I don't see praying to Him as violating any "rule." That would be MAN praying to GOD. Maybe out of the norm, but not forbidden. I Know that whoever this spirit is, it is not the Holy Ghost.  It is the mind of a man! The Holy Spirit is NOT involved with our speech until we are prophesying or praying in tongues.

the Holy Ghost bring unity OF COURSE God wants peace. Yet, God KNEW that when Jesus came, He  - Jesus - would cause people to divide: Jews were very stubborn people then: they had Moses. Many thought Jesus was an impostor. Interesting: they did not recognize Him as God. I have blamed you for this: that perhaps you have not recognized the Holy Spirit when it really was HIM! Tozer said that nothing in the Azusa street revival was God. He missed it BIG TIME! I hope you are wiser than he was on this subject.  Remember the words of Jesus in Luke 12: " "Suppose you that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, nay; but rather division "  On the other hand, in a local body of believers, God's plan is that we all be of the same mind!  It was certainly not His plan to have many different denominations.

the dividedness of the Pentecostal/charismatic movement  Sorry my friend, but there is dividedness EVERWHERE in the church. You cannot just pick one and ignore all the rest. Paul WANTED peace, but even in His churches there was division.

there was always resistance to a new move of the Holy Ghost  It is the typical response of humans through the ages: people much prefer to stick to what they know. People resist change. Every believer SHOULD strive to stay on the cutting edge of what the Holy Spirit is doing. There is a new wave of Glory coming, that will bring revival. I plan on being like the surfer: I want to catch the leading edge of this wave!

You speak of the "Devil" slipping into the revival to stop it  Sorry, my friend, but the devil has b een successful in stopping every revival that has ever been. "Division" is one of his best weapons. What better way to stop a move of God than a church split? Have you never studied the revivals of our church history?

a True move of the Holy Ghost pervades and overcomes this attack, because of the Bond of peace  That is wishful thinking. Few true believers are mature in love. People are people, and many times allow "stuff" to override love. I have seen the choice of carpet color divide!

then there is the "new Move" of the Holy Ghost  Have you been blind to "moves of the Holy Spirit?" It does not matter what we call them, but history PROVES such moves.  A revival comes by an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. No church or local body can create "revival." It MUST come from God. At the same time there was revival at Azusa street, God was moving in Wales with a great revival. In the US we had two great revivals in the past. Man could not created them, ONLY GOD could, but they came when people began to pray. But to be more specific, you are putting God in a box, thinking God could not move to cause people to laugh. Or that God could not move to cause people to put more emphasis on the written word of God. Or perhaps that God could not move for a revival of physical healings.

The Only Move of the real Holy Ghost is to place you on your knees in repentance  This is your theory; God is bigger than your theory. Question: if you just got up from repenting, would you need to get right back down and repent again? The truth is, repentant people don't need to repent every second. If God wants to move on people that are caught up on repentance, it is NOT going to be a revival of repentance! I started laughing in the Spirit before laughter came to the US. I think I was laughing at the devil. I had been praying for a young girl born blind. After a few minutes of praying, I would start laughing. Laughing in the Holy Spirit is very real and there is certainly no verse against it. Do you remember the term "holy rollers?" How did that term come to be? It was because the Holy Spirit put people on the floor! How did the Quakers get that title? It was because the Holy Spirit caused people to quake or shake. We cannot put God in a box and say these things are not of God. If we do, we are doing what the pharisees did. Where do we "draw the line?" Perhaps with barking! Or Clucking!  The truth is, the moment the devil slips in something like barking, it is like a bucket of cold water is splashed over everyone: they all knew instantly a different spirit arrived. I have felt that numerous times. An alert pastor should always recognize a false spirit. Do they always? No.

The Willful questioning of and Doubting of the Inerrancy of the Word of God, and the Truth thereof.  You know as well as I: this stuff comes from ungodly people - people far away from God.

But amongst the Pentecostals there is a willful aversion to the Truth of the Word of God  Shame on you! You cannot lump all Pentecostals together. Pentecostals love the truth just as much or more than Baptists. Why would you say such a thing? I find it very hard to believe a born again person with any sense at all would say such a thing. The truth is, backslidden churches of ANY type are slipping into LGBTQ.  The truth is, every church should be preaching against such behavior. In my church, I have heard demons of such silly behavior cry out during the sermon: "what about love?" Ha ha! The preachers answered: "your kind of love came straight from hell!" Then continued his message. Always remember, ANY denomination or type of church can slip into a backslidden state and begin the sillyness of politically correctness.  It is wrong of you to pick on one type of church. I think this comes from your lack of understanding of tongues.

The Churches of the Charismatic Movement in General are leading the charge.  Show me, don't tell me. I refuse to believe it. Sadly my computer  won't allow that website to open.

Check this out:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_affirming_LGBT

I think you are mistaken.

From another website:  "Pentecostal congregations have historically condemned homosexuality, and most Pentecostal denominations have doctrinal statements condemning homosexuality, such as the International Pentecostal Holiness Church’s statement, “We have maintained a strong position against premarital, extramarital, and deviant sex, including homosexual and lesbian relationships, refusing to accept the loose moral standards of our society. We commit ourselves to maintaining this disciplined lifestyle with regard to our bodies."

Edited by iamlamad

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On 8/23/2019 at 10:20 AM, iamlamad said:

The Churches of the Charismatic Movement in General are leading the charge.  Show me, don't tell me. I refuse to believe it. Sadly my computer  won't allow that website to open.

Check this out:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_affirming_LGBT

I think you are mistaken.

Try again. 

I can copy and paste it here but it is a bit lengthy. 

Been studying up on contemplative Spirituality/mysticism, as this article dealt with that. Here is a brief synopsis from Got questions... This is the forefront of the charismatic movement and the wave which you are looking to ride, which will lead to destruction...

Question: "What is contemplative spirituality?"

Answer:
Contemplative spirituality is an extremely dangerous practice for any person who desires to live a biblical, God-centered life. It is most commonly associated with the emerging church movement, which is riddled with false teachings. It is also used by many different groups that have little, if any, connection with Christianity.

In practice, contemplative spirituality is primarily centered on meditation, although not meditation with a biblical perspective. Passages such as Joshua 1:8 actually exhort us to meditate: “Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.” Notice what the focus of meditation should be—the Word of God. Contemplative spirituality-driven meditation focuses on nothing, literally. A practitioner is exhorted to completely empty his/her mind, to just “be.” Supposedly, this helps one to open up to a greater spiritual experience. However, we are exhorted in Scripture to transform our minds to that of Christ's, to have His mind. Emptying our minds is contrary to such active, conscious transformation.

Contemplative spirituality also encourages the pursuit of a mystical experience with God. Mysticism is the belief that knowledge of God, spiritual truth, and ultimate reality can be gained through subjective experience. This emphasis on experiential knowledge erodes the authority of Scripture. We know God according to His Word. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). God's Word is complete. There is no reason to believe that God adds additional teachings or truths to His Word through mystical experiences. Instead, our faith and what we know about God is based on fact.

The website for the Center for Contemplative Spirituality sums it up well: “We come from a variety of secular and religious backgrounds and we each seek to enrich our journey through spiritual practice and study of the world's great spiritual traditions. We desire to draw closer to the loving Spirit which pervades all creation and which inspires our compassion for all beings.” There is absolutely nothing biblical about such goals. Studying the world’s “spiritual traditions” is an exercise in futility because any spiritual tradition other than that which exalts Christ is falsehood. The only way to draw closer to God is through the path He has ordained—Jesus Christ and the Word.

https://www.gotquestions.org/contemplative-spirituality.html

On 8/23/2019 at 10:20 AM, iamlamad said:

But amongst the Pentecostals there is a willful aversion to the Truth of the Word of God  Shame on you! You cannot lump all Pentecostals together. Pentecostals love the truth just as much or more than Baptists. Why would you say such a thing? I find it very hard to believe a born again person with any sense at all would say such a thing. The truth is, backslidden churches of ANY type are slipping into LGBTQ.  The truth is, every church should be preaching against such behavior. In my church, I have heard demons of such silly behavior cry out during the sermon: "what about love?" Ha ha! The preachers answered: "your kind of love came straight from hell!" Then continued his message. Always remember, ANY denomination or type of church can slip into a backslidden state and begin the sillyness of politically correctness.  It is wrong of you to pick on one type of church. I think this comes from your lack of understanding of tongues.

My response was not exclusive to Pentecostals, and I qualified it as a problem in all denominations, But You overlooked that. My Point was that What are offshoots of Pentecostalism are leading the charge in this regard. ALL denominations today are  Laodicea, and living in self deception, very few are the overcomers. Because you see my words as an attack, you cannot read them rightly, but read them defensively. Take a step back and look and see that I am using Pentecostalism as an example, because that is what you are familiar with, But I could equally use the Southern Baptists, or the Wesleyans as the example, But this would not have the same impact on you. I am trying to point out to you, where the churches you hold dear have strayed from the Word of God that you may become one of the overcomers of this age. 

I am going to Hold off on this conversation for now, because I want this to settle in, I have planted the seed, and The Holy Ghost will now do His work in you to show you these things, That something is amiss in the system you hold dear. Until you are able to step outside of the teachings of men, you will be unable to digest the meat of this (1 Cor. 3:1-3). If I pursue this further you will just entrench yourself where you are at and the Word of God will be of none effect to you. 

God bless.

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7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Try again. 

I can copy and paste it here but it is a bit lengthy. 

Been studying up on contemplative Spirituality/mysticism, as this article dealt with that. Here is a brief synopsis from Got questions... This is the forefront of the charismatic movement and the wave which you are looking to ride, which will lead to destruction...

Question: "What is contemplative spirituality?"

Answer:
Contemplative spirituality is an extremely dangerous practice for any person who desires to live a biblical, God-centered life. It is most commonly associated with the emerging church movement, which is riddled with false teachings. It is also used by many different groups that have little, if any, connection with Christianity.

In practice, contemplative spirituality is primarily centered on meditation, although not meditation with a biblical perspective. Passages such as Joshua 1:8 actually exhort us to meditate: “Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.” Notice what the focus of meditation should be—the Word of God. Contemplative spirituality-driven meditation focuses on nothing, literally. A practitioner is exhorted to completely empty his/her mind, to just “be.” Supposedly, this helps one to open up to a greater spiritual experience. However, we are exhorted in Scripture to transform our minds to that of Christ's, to have His mind. Emptying our minds is contrary to such active, conscious transformation.

Contemplative spirituality also encourages the pursuit of a mystical experience with God. Mysticism is the belief that knowledge of God, spiritual truth, and ultimate reality can be gained through subjective experience. This emphasis on experiential knowledge erodes the authority of Scripture. We know God according to His Word. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). God's Word is complete. There is no reason to believe that God adds additional teachings or truths to His Word through mystical experiences. Instead, our faith and what we know about God is based on fact.

The website for the Center for Contemplative Spirituality sums it up well: “We come from a variety of secular and religious backgrounds and we each seek to enrich our journey through spiritual practice and study of the world's great spiritual traditions. We desire to draw closer to the loving Spirit which pervades all creation and which inspires our compassion for all beings.” There is absolutely nothing biblical about such goals. Studying the world’s “spiritual traditions” is an exercise in futility because any spiritual tradition other than that which exalts Christ is falsehood. The only way to draw closer to God is through the path He has ordained—Jesus Christ and the Word.

https://www.gotquestions.org/contemplative-spirituality.html

My response was not exclusive to Pentecostals, and I qualified it as a problem in all denominations, But You overlooked that. My Point was that What are offshoots of Pentecostalism are leading the charge in this regard. ALL denominations today are  Laodicea, and living in self deception, very few are the overcomers. Because you see my words as an attack, you cannot read them rightly, but read them defensively. Take a step back and look and see that I am using Pentecostalism as an example, because that is what you are familiar with, But I could equally use the Southern Baptists, or the Wesleyans as the example, But this would not have the same impact on you. I am trying to point out to you, where the churches you hold dear have strayed from the Word of God that you may become one of the overcomers of this age. 

I am going to Hold off on this conversation for now, because I want this to settle in, I have planted the seed, and The Holy Ghost will now do His work in you to show you these things, That something is amiss in the system you hold dear. Until you are able to step outside of the teachings of men, you will be unable to digest the meat of this (1 Cor. 3:1-3). If I pursue this further you will just entrench yourself where you are at and the Word of God will be of none effect to you. 

God bless.

" But amongst the Pentecostals there is a willful aversion to the Truth of the Word of God  "  You could have said "the church world is slipping into a place of willful aversion to the Truth of God's word.

There was no need to single out ANY group as "leading the charge."

Something for you to contemplate: Pentecostal people got born again exactly like any other person: through faith in the word of God concerning salvation.  However, Pentecostal people have gone a step further, NOT bypassing Acts 1 and 2, but received exactly what the early church received. (Tongues included) HOW did they receive this blessing? Through faith in God's word as written in Acts 1 and 2 and other places - the same way anyone receives anything from God.

Something you should know: the devil will do ANYTHING to keep people away from Pentecost (yes, the Bible Pentecost with speaking in tongues as the initial evidence just like happened in Acts). This is why I made such comments: ask a good Baptist WHY they don't speak in tongues (I have - many times). Like I said before, what you hear as an answer to this question is an absolute masterpiece of deception. Baptists don't look of Pentecost because they believe they got everything God had to give at salvation - which of course includes the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

I think it was John Wesley that came up with the term, "the second work of the Holy Spirit," but either he or another called this "entire Sanctification." Why I can't imagine, but that is part of Satan's deception. Luke called it the baptism with the Holy Spirit.  However, the KJV translated that Greek word 1,902 times as "IN" and only 140 times as "with." When one is submerged as in baptism, one goes IN to the water.

I recently taught all the Acts scriptures on this subject at a baptist bible study. I very carefully pointed out that in every case in Acts, Luke wrote that it was the Holy Spirit "on" or "upon," and never "within," then showed scriptures about the Holy Spirit within that comes with salvation. 

I carefully pointed out how careful Luke was to show that in most cases this experience came clearly after salvation, as a "second work" of the Holy Spirit and usually came with the laying on of hands. The Baptist pastor said "You may be right: there may be a second work of grace." I think he then promptly forgot it.  A famous TV baptist preacher once got backed so far into a corner on these verses in Acts, he finally said that we cannot use the book of Acts for Doctrine!  (Imagine that!) OF COURSE we can use Acts for Doctrine: it is scripture!

The reason then that most born again people do not speak in tongues is simple: they are deceived at some level about the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit, in this area. I think you have proven that this fits you too. I hope you will allow The Holy Ghost to confirm these things to you.  In most cases, this deception raises to a masterpiece level. That is why I mentioned Picasso or Remington, or Michal Angelo: they painted masterpieces.

One thing is certain: if people don't know they are lost, chances are good they have no desire to be "found," as in "saved." If people don't know there is a second work of the Holy Spirit Luke called the baptism in the Holy Spirit - chances are good they won't look for it.  If people don't know that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is HIS WILL FOR THEM, they would look for it.. This is the very reason I started this subject. I KNOW it is His will for all believers.

Why is it Satan hates so for people to receive this baptism in the Holy Spirit? It is simple: he is afraid of the anointing!

By the way, DON'T EVEN THINK Pentecostals are leading the way into Christian mysticism! You would be very wrong. 

I wonder, have you ever watched videos of Kathryn Kuhlman ?

Edited by iamlamad

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The reason then that most born again people do not speak in tongues is simple: they are deceived at some level about the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit, in this area. I think you have proven that this fits you too. I hope you will allow The Holy Ghost to confirm these things to you.  In most cases, this deception raises to a masterpiece level. That is why I mentioned Picasso or Remington, or Michal Angelo: they painted masterpieces.

This is the kind of stuff you need to avoid, as this is unfruitful, and shows your arrogance regarding the "Second work of the Holy Ghost". I Believe in the second Work of the Holy Ghost, But it did not manifest in tongues as it did for you, why is that? Because this occurred as a child for me, and I told you about this. But What I did not tell you is that the Baptist Pastor's wife, who was a sunday school teacher Told me not to say anything about it. I Know what I saw then, I remember the day, I remember the missionary that was speaking I remember seeing many in the church including the Pastor of my church not having this visible Aura around them. I also noticed who did in the church service. 

This Gift is no longer a visual thing for me But one that spiritually sees who are the saints and who are not. I Know this gift is biblical because of the depictions of this aura in the earliest works of the church... So it is not a new age thing.  When I saw this, it was not the big wigs in the church, but the lowliest of them, The old widow, The Plumber, who sat there quietly listening, The man who sang special music, but was a lousy singer…. Basically not who you would expect were the saints, were the saints and had this Aura about them.

Was this a deception of the devil? Was this Satan coming on me and showing me these things? Or was this the anointing of God? Why was I told to shut up about this? remember I was only a child. speaking up to someone I trusted and admired as a teacher. Why did she nor her husband have this? Why did this missionary from Africa have this so brilliantly, Why Did the usual leaders in the church not have this, but the ones that were unassuming and unassertive have this? You cannot explain, because your negation will not allow for another kind of anointing other than tongues. Tongues is the Only sign of anointing you accept.

I Am going to write another post on this topic soon, and open this up to others to describe the infilling of the Holy Ghost in their lives, and how this manifested in their life. Hopefully you will then see that Your claims of exclusivity are mistaken.

Actually, I will posit this question here as well for any who wish to answer. How did the infilling of the Holy Ghost manifest in You? The baptism of the Holy Ghost? I Am not trying to lead with this question, so if tongues was involved, feel free to say so....   

 

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