World Should Be Glad We Treat Him This Good

[Qun Mang]

Understanding the Old Testament is a part of understanding who God is. That is the reason it is still included in the Bible. Did you read Butero's post above? Here, I will quote it now:

I am a follower of Christ and although I've read the OT I tend to focus on the NT. We are in the new covenant now; I think Jesus Christ showed us the way we are to behave.

Instead of looking for excuses to justify bad behavior in the OT we should be looking to Jesus Christ; He is the way, the truth and the light. When I compare some of the atrocities God *supposedly* commanded in the OT and compare that to God the Father that Jesus describes I simply don't believe the OT is accurate in some places. If those orders to kill thousands of women and children is true then God would indeed be violating his own commandment.

I answered the same question in another post concerning specific scriptures proving God ordered the children of Israel to battle. The scripture I gave was 1 Samuel 15:2 & 3" Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way when he came up from Egypt. now go, and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, oxe and sheep, camel and ass."

God also instituted the death penalty in Numbers 35:30-31 "Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death, by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die. Moreover, ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death, but he shall be surely put to death." You brought up the fact that not all the prisoners may have actually committed murder. I also will point out the death penalty was allowed for other crimes than murder in the Old Testament. The examples I gave were practicing witchcraft, Ex 22:18 and homosexuality, lev 20:13. There were many more including incest and beastiality. In one instance, God told Moses to have a man stoned to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath day. These are not contradictions, but intent. God did not intend the commandment "thou shalt not kill" to prohibit governments from having capitol crimes or to oppose the use of military force. If we rightly divide the Word of truth these things are apparent.

You want to focus on the New Testament so I will add these facts to the list. Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today, and forever." Jesus and the Father are one so if Jesus is the same always, his standard didn't suddenly change.

In Acts Chapter 5, we find the story of Ananias and Sapphira. Both were killed by God for lying to the Holy Ghost. He enforced his own death penalty upon them.

In Acts Chapter 12 we find the story of Herod. He was making a speech, and at the conclusion the people began to shout that his words were that of a god and not a man. Herod let stand what they said without giving glory to the true and living God so the angel of the Lord immediately smote him and he was eaten of worms and gave up the ghost. That is Acts 12:23.

In Revelation we read of a battle to come called Armageddon where God and his saints will do battle against the anti-Christ and his followers and defeat them militarily. Later on at the end of the millenial reign, Satan will lead one last rebellion and both he and his followers will have fire rained down upon them and they will be destroyed.

Yes, God is a God of mercy and love, but he is also a God of judgement and wrath. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." To truly know Jesus is to know the entire Word of God from Genesis to Revelation, not just the passages that appear in red letters in the 4 gospels and the first chapter in Acts.

The examples I gave you are just the tip of the iceburg. If they do not satisfy you, I can give you many more.

Please don't take this the wrong way, because all Christians after all start this way, but you sound very much like you're a baby Christian, Charlie. Indeed the Gospels are spiritual milk, but at some time in our lives just a a baby grows to eat solid food, a Christian needs to take in more solid spiritual food. Some of that food is also in the NT, things Paul wrote about in his letters, but other food is to be found by reading and understanding the Old Testament. Read it in meditation and prayer- ask God with an open heart to help you understand it as you read through the troublesome spots again. And remember, in the words of God through Paul in the NT (emphasis mine):

2 Tim 3:16-17 "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

[ted]

It must be pretty hard to figure out just which parts of the Bible are true and pertinent and which ones should be discarded as meaningless or inaccurate.

Where would one start?

Go ahead and call me a Bible Thumper, I believe every word!

t.

[Guest charlie]

It must be pretty hard to figure out just which parts of the Bible are true and pertinent and which ones should be discarded as meaningless or inaccurate.

Where would one start? noidea.gif

I told you how I do it; I compare it to the Gospels and if it doesn't line up with what Jesus Christ said, I don't accept it as the "gospel truth".

Understanding the Old Testament is a part of understanding who God is. That is the reason it is still included in the Bible. Did you read Butero's post above? Here, I will quote it now:

Read it in meditation and prayer- ask God with an open heart to help you understand it as you read through the troublesome spots again.

I've been a Christian all my life Qun Mang. I'm not one of those who can can say "on Jan 16, 1980 I got saved". I've always believed, always accepted Jesus' death on the cross for me. I was raised in the Church of Christ and their focus is on the NT even though we had the OT. I disagreed with this in young adulthood but now I think they're absolutely right about that. I've had my moments of being back-slidden and my periods of doubt but those periods of doubt came after reading the OT. I think it makes God out to be some sort of psycho who can't be trusted. I did pray and meditate on it and I feel God answered me. I simply don't believe God orders people to commit murder and rape and I refuse to twist myself into a pretzel to try and believe He did. - Then I noticed that Jesus didn't always follow the OT "rules". - Plus the warning at the end of the book of Revelation clued me into the fact that the Bible could be tampered with.

I don't think I'm the only Christian that doesn't believe everything in the OT; I do think I'm one of the rare ones that will admit it though.

If you guys believe every word of the OT and understand it without being troubled then by all means more power to you. For me, after much prayer on the matter it's better that I stick with a Children's Bible where the OT is concerned. The adult version causes me to doubt either God's existence or His true nature so it's best for me to avoid it.

You guys didn't really address this even though Butero touched on it:

Do you think we're in the new covenant or not? Do you think we should give more weight to the remarks of Jesus Christ or to the many, many commandments of the OT; most of which you guys wouldn't dream of obeying today.?

As Christians why focus on the OT? Shouldn't we be paying more attention to say.....the sermon on the mount?..... Or the golden rule?

------

Which is more relevent in your life the OT or the NT?

Do you think people are obeying the voice of God today when they say He's telling them to kill? If He is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow and you think He did that in the OT then isn't it possible that He does tell individuals to do such things today? You know where I stand on that; where do you stand?

Edited June 28, 2005 by charlie

[Qun Mang]

Do you believe that God judges people while they are still alive, before they face the Judgment Seat upon death? The fact is He has and He does. He judged the entire world back in Noah's time. He judged Sodom and Gomorrah. He issued judgment on the Israelites more than once, allowing the nation to become conquered and slaves. As Butero mentioned He judged Herod, Annanias and Sapphira in the New Testament. Just a few months ago I was told by a small group member of an incident where he witnessed to a coworker using a tract. This tract had a little cartoon where an unbeliever ripped up a Bible (if I remember correctly) and ended with a verse about unbelief and getting one's head cut off (I'm sorry, I don't remember precisely what it was and can't find it right now- if someone knows, please post it, thanks). Well, the one being witnessed to thought it would be cute to rip up the tract just like the character in the cartoon. Later that night he was involved in a car accident where his car wound up going under a truck, and guess what happened to his head? Judgment? You tell me. Anyway, what happened with Canaan was not murder, it was Judgment. God just issued it through His people, just as He issued judgment on Israel through people of other nations.

That said, yes some things were different during OT times than they are now, though God is still the same. For example, people were under an external Law back then, involving external penalties and animal sacrifices. Today, the Law is "written upon our hearts" as the Bible teaches us. Back then there was one temple (or tabernacle), with one room that was home of the Ark of the Covenant, where God's Spirit dwelt. Today God's Holy Spirit dwells in the hearts of His children.

As Butero mentioned there are the different types of laws which I won't go into again. He also mentioned which we are to follow, and those laws in essence are the Ten Commandments, all reiterated by the way in the New Testament, most in verses where Jesus talks of hating your brother being the same as murder or thinking adulterous thoughts being the same as commiting the act itself, and He pretty much summed it up when he said in Matthew 22:37-40:

37 And He said to him, ""YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.

39 "The second is like it, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

NASU

As for your original questions, I don't think that Butero merely touched on them, he outright answered them. By living under the New Covenant we are following Jesus as you say, but that includes not only the sermon on the mount and the golden rule, but also what He said in the verses I mentioned above.

For your questions to me, the entire Bible is relevant in my life. The entire Word is all about God, not just the NT. Sure I started out with the Gospels as anyone new to following Christ does. Next I learned about what the Apostles had to say, especially Paul who essentially wrote most of the NT outside the Gospels through his letters. Finally there is the Old Testament which teaches us more about God's character, especially His holiness. It also teaches us prophecy that leads up to Christ's birth, ministry, death and resurrection. And most Bible-reading Christians wouldn't even think of God in the NT without thinking of God in the Psalms. His love and wrath are both present there. Ever notice that many NT Bibles also include Psalms and Proverbs? The OT most certainly has relevance.

Your last question is about God speaking to us personally. In fact, we just had a sermon a few weeks ago on this issue at my Church. Most of the time God speaks to us through His Word and His Holy Spirit, both a part of a practicing Christian's life. Very rarely does He speak outright to anyone, so I believe most who say He has spoken to them are not being completely honest with others or themselves. As such, a specific directive from God to actually go out and kill someone is not very likely. Especially if it would be considered murder under the law, as we are supposed to obey the law except where it conflicts with God's Word, and God would definitely not tell someone to sin. Anytime we think God tells us something, we must measure the words to God's Word. If there is a conflict, we know which one is right.

However, governments have the right to kill where individuals do not, such as with capital punishment or war. And who was the head of Israel's government at the time they wiped out Canaan? It wasn't a king, as Israel didn't get a king until Saul. It was God.

Well, I have spent well over an hour typing up this response. If there are errors I will catch them later- I'm tired of typing. But I hope this helps, Charlie.

[ted]

t.

[Guest charlie]

That was a really nice post Qun Mang. I appreciate the hour you put into it too. It makes a lot of sense to me. - Remember I didn't say I didn't believe all of the OT but a few parts; primarily those that some people tend to "cherry pick" in order to jusify horrific actions and behavior today.

If I were going to sit down and do an OT Bible study with someone I'd much prefer to do it with someone who has a kind attitude like you do; that's a good witness imo.

I'm not a pacifist at all but I do think as Christians and Americans there needs to be some rules as to how we treat prisoners; it should never be "anything goes". I also think God judges even as we live; some things are just too odd to be coincidence. BUT as you and I have both said, we are in a new covenant and I don't think it's appropriate to use the OT judgements as the example we should follow today.

When I think of God I immediately think of Jesus Christ, His birth, His life, His lessons, His death, His ressurection and ascention. I rarely think of the OT specifically even though it's there in the back of my mind just like the rest of the NT. But overall it's the gospels that I think of most of the time.

Once again thank you for that very thoughtful post.

[Qun Mang]

You're very welcome. I think it is very important to have a solid understanding of God's word, all of it. Remember, Jesus Himself is the Word, as is said in the beginning of John.

You are right when you say that it never should be "anything goes." The majority of people out there, including our soldiers, are unsaved, and "anything goes" often means things we know to be sin. With the Nazi's it was "anything goes" with their prisoners as they were all condemned to death in their eyes anyway. That said, I don't believe for a minute that "anything goes" is what's going on in Guatanamo Bay and other prisons. I do believe that much of what's going on is hyped up heavily by people in this country who would seem to rather live somewhere else (to put things nicely). Even if they did throw the Quran in the toilet (which was never proven AFAIK) that's a far cry from the brutality they would commit in the name of their religion if they had a chance. Our soldiers are very reasonable in their treatment, knowing they too can be prosecuted if they go too far (remember the fiasco in Iraq several months ago).

As for the sentiment that they should be lined up and shot, if it is determined that they have commited acts of terrorism against our people then they should be punished, even executed. If their crimes were against Iraq then it should be up to the Iraquis to punish them how they see fit. Again, governments are allowed to dispense justice, including execution.

The big debate though seems to be about what rights they have in their treatment and in how justice should be served, and I just don't know how to answer that. There is much to be said for humane treatment as prisoners in America get, but after all, they are not Americans and are very bent on killing any who are not Muslim, even (and especially) to their own deaths.

[Guest charlie]

Qun Mang, if you get a chance check out Eadora's post on this other thread:

http://www.worthyboards.com/forums/index.p...pic=23815&st=30

It's #35 I think. It's a very good post and from what I can tell she/he and I pretty much agree on the Iraq war and the prisioners at Guantanamo. That post, and several that precede it, are relevent to this thread.