Do you believe in Predestination?

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Hard for me to continue much past this: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined" does NOT link foreknowledge to predestination . . . ?!!

Nice straw man!  That is NOT what I posted. 

Of course foreknowledge and predestination are linked; but you have ASSUMED an incorrect meaning for "foreknowledge".

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It's a sequence, foreknew (who would trust via free will), predestined them (to Christlikeness, partial likeness now, full likeness at the Rapture), these are called, justified, glorified (born again, saved).

It is, "... those whom he foreknew...", not "...those whom he foreknew would trust...".  Your ASSUMPTION that it means "who would trust via free will" is a self-serving declaration that bears no relation to what the verse states, nor does it agree with the what the word "foreknew" means, in reference to people.

When "foreknew" is used, with reference to people, it means "chose beforehand", not "knew that they would trust in the future"!  It is about God setting his intimate, favourable knowledge on certain people, before they exist.

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I'm also struggling through Rom 8 "those whom He foreknew" is "all about what God does and not remotely about God's foreknowledge of our actions." . . . ?!

Answered above.

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John 3:16 is interpreted by Calvinists, to fit Calvinism, using added words, "God so loved [a subset of] the people of the world, that He [forced] whoever trusts to not perish [if they continue with perseverance of the saints]." You may not be a Calvinist, but the ultimate logical end of predestination regarding salvation/total sovereignty regarding election is Calvinism.

Quote a "Calvinist", as you call them, who says that John 3:16 means what you have stated above.   You can't, can you?

I am impressed by your mastery of the self-serving, insulting straw men, however.  I normally associate this kind of wicked misrepresentation with a different forum.

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I'm further troubled by your combative spirit. "How many errors is it possible to make, in one post? You must be trying for some kind of record!" Either speak to me as your brother in Christ or argue with someone else, if the goal is to be hurtful, divisive.

Excuse me!?  You are the one making self-serving assumptions and dealing out insulting, straw-man arguments.  What do you expect?

I see no evidence of a humble willingness to submit to what the Bible says, nor to receive correction, when the facts are pointed out to you.  This is not what I expect from a brother in Christ; and, until there is evidence of contrition, what you will get from me is earnestly contending for the faith, once for all delivered to the saints.

[Billiards Ball]

54 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Nice straw man!  That is NOT what I posted. 

Of course foreknowledge and predestination are linked; but you have ASSUMED an incorrect meaning for "foreknowledge".

It is, "... those whom he foreknew...", not "...those whom he foreknew would trust...".  Your ASSUMPTION that it means "who would trust via free will" is a self-serving declaration that bears no relation to what the verse states, nor does it agree with the what the word "foreknew" means, in reference to people.

When "foreknew" is used, with reference to people, it means "chose beforehand", not "knew that they would trust in the future"!  It is about God setting his intimate, favourable knowledge on certain people, before they exist.

Answered above.

Quote a "Calvinist", as you call them, who says that John 3:16 means what you have stated above.   You can't, can you?

I am impressed by your mastery of the self-serving, insulting straw men, however.  I normally associate this kind of wicked misrepresentation with a different forum.

Excuse me!?  You are the one making self-serving assumptions and dealing out insulting, straw-man arguments.  What do you expect?

I see no evidence of a humble willingness to submit to what the Bible says, nor to receive correction, when the facts are pointed out to you.  This is not what I expect from a brother in Christ; and, until there is evidence of contrition, what you will get from me is earnestly contending for the faith, once for all delivered to the saints.

I'm a born again Christian. I love you, dear brother, but let's not argue. Debate? Sure. But not fight.

This has become a fight. And I don't see Predestination as the worst thing, at all.

We both contend for the faith once delivered (Jesus is God, King and Savior, men cannot save themselves). Blessings to you, brother. Please forgive me.

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

I'm a born again Christian. I love you, dear brother, but let's not argue. Debate? Sure. But not fight.

This has become a fight. And I don't see Predestination as the worst thing, at all.

We both contend for the faith once delivered (Jesus is God, King and Savior, men cannot save themselves). Blessings to you, brother. Please forgive me.

I forgive you.

[David1701]

9 hours ago, JohnD said:

So?

Even our faith / our belief is a gift from God.

Which he gives to those he knows will choose his Son.

You're getting in deeper and deeper.

As do most who underestimate God and his abilities.

Ahahahahahaha!

So, apparently, God gives faith to those who will choose his Son.  How do we choose his Son?  That would be by faith ... oops!

[JohnD]

12 hours ago, David1701 said:

So, apparently, God gives faith to those who will choose his Son.  How do we choose his Son?  That would be by faith ... oops!

No. Again, you are inflicting our temporal manner of thinking

upon the omniscient mind of God.

God isn't playing games with humanity.

Whosoever will... John 3:16

Savior of the whole world... 1 Timothy 4:10

Propitiation for the sins of the whole world... 1 John 2:2

Cordial invitation to be locked out at the gate? I like you you and you to be a believer, and the hell with the rest of you?

The preferential treatment is rather that the only difference is we believe.

Our choice to believe to receive the faith seed of the sower.

1 Timothy 2:3–5 (AV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

But not all men believe. 

So they continue on in their predestined path to eternal damnation (John 3:18) for unbelief.

It's all so very simple, and kicks the feet out from under human arrogance and elitism when

you put the truth: God's omniscience at the heart of the matter.

Edited July 16, 2020 by JohnD

[David1701]

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

No. Again, you are inflicting our temporal manner of thinking

upon the omniscient mind of God.

And your evidence for this is?  Oh, that's right, you don't have any.

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God isn't playing games with humanity.

Correct.

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Whosoever will... John 3:16

Amen to the Scripture.  Did you have a point?

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Savior of the whole world... 1 Timothy 4:10

That's right, the Lord saves Jews and Gentiles.  What is your point?

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Propitiation for the sins of the whole world... 1 John 2:2

That is, for Jews and Gentiles.  What is your point?

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Cordial invitation to be locked out at the gate? I like you you and you to be a believer, and the hell with the rest of you?

This is just empty rhetoric.  As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.  All the Father gives Jesus WILL come to him and will not be cast out.

If you don't like it, take it up with the Lord; but Paul has already answered your unbelieving objection.

Rom. 9:18-24 (EMTV)

18 So then He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?"
20 But indeed, O man, who are you to be answering back against God? Shall the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Or does not the potter have the right over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and the other for dishonor?
22 But what if God, wanting to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and so that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not only of the Jews, but also of the Gentiles?

Your objection is in verse 19 and the Holy Spirit-inspired rebuttal is in the following verses.

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The preferential treatment is rather that the only difference is we believe.

That faith being a gift from God, not something generated by light-hating, hostile to God man, who rejects the things of the Spirit of God.

 

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Our choice to believe to receive the faith seed of the sower.

Where does the Bible (remember that?) say that faith is a choice?  (Hint: it doesn't)

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1 Timothy 2:3–5 (AV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

But not all men believe. 

 

You omitted the verses that show the context of this passage.

1 Tim. 2:1-5 (EMTV)

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made on behalf of all people,
2 on behalf of kings and all those who are in authority, that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3 For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior,
4 who desires all people to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Does verse 1 refer to all people without exception, or all people without distinction?  If it were the former, then the prayer meeting would take a very LOOOOOOOOOOONG time!  This means that "all people" here means "all people without distinction" (i.e. all kinds of people).  This is confirmed by verse 2, in which Paul immediately mentions CATEGORIES of people, not individuals.

Now that we have the CONTEXT, we can see that "all people", in verse 4, means "all people without distinction" (all kinds of people), not all people without exception.

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So they continue on in their predestined path to eternal damnation (John 3:18) for unbelief.

It's all so very simple, and kicks the feet out from under human arrogance and elitism when

you put the truth: God's omniscience at the heart of the matter.

 

It IS simple, but you need to understand it.  I hope that what I've posted will help you with this.

The doctrines of grace are the most humbling teachings there are.  We are all hell-deserving sinners, yet God has mercy on some, giving us repentance, faith and salvation in Jesus Christ.  Why does he do this?  Is it because of some hidden good in me, which caused me to believe the gospel, when those around me did not?  No!  THAT would be arrogance of the first order.  It is because of God's GRACE to me, an undeserving sinner, in giving me repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.  Soli Deo Gloria!

[JohnD]

z-z-z-z-z-z-z

you're putting me to sleep.

Old arguments all have been answered.

Don't underestimate an omniscient mind.

[JohnD]

It is incumbent upon us to learn what God meant by the term "predestination"

rather than what we individually believe / interpret what the word means.

Thems that believes are predestined to heaven

thems that don't are predestined to continue on to hell. 

It's all about Jesus. Put him in the center of whatever confuses you

and the answer will become clear...

And it's all about omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God 

bringing all things to pass.

[David1701]

On 7/16/2020 at 10:33 PM, JohnD said:

z-z-z-z-z-z-z

you're putting me to sleep.

Old arguments all have been answered.

Don't underestimate an omniscient mind.

Perhaps, once you've had your afternoon nap, you'll be able to contribute a substantive reply, rather than vacuous rhetoric.

[Guest theElect777]

I believe in it and Paul proved it.

Ephesians 1:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

Verse 4 explains God chosen us BEFORE the foundation of the world .

Verse 5 just flat out uses the word predestine to explain our adoption into Christ.