ilovejcsog Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 66 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/21/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 11 hours ago, LonerAndy said: I believe.... that... I was predetermined to not believe in predestination. I'll let you figure out how that works :O) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.56 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, ilovejcsog said: So then there are many who are not chosen and live a hopeless life never to be able to be a child of God no matter how hard they try? Salvation is by God's undeserved favour, not by man's efforts. You don't become a child of God by trying (the flesh profits nothing) but by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ and that not of yourself. It is a gift from God, not of man's works, so that no-one may boast. Rom. 9:15,16 (VW) 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovejcsog Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 66 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/21/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 On 10/7/2019 at 7:34 AM, OneLight said: Let's look at scripture to determine what is meant. Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. In verse 29 we read that God "foreknew" - which shows me that He knew before we were born who would accept His salvation, not by reassignment, but by choice - which is Love in the finest Verse 29 also states that those whom He knew would accept His salvation, "He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son". In verse 30 we read the steps He works out in our life: whom He predestined He also called whom He called, these He also justified whom He justified, these He also glorified All this point to the reasoning behind the promise found in verse 29 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. Too many people have a false belief that we have absolutely no choice in the matter. I suggest we do, otherwise, why would God send His Son to pay the price for our sin and then add in conditions found in John 3:16-17? For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. I like what you have said here. Makes sense to me. So those not predestined God knew that they would reject him. So it is not that they will grieve not being chosen as God knows that they don't want it. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Its my opinion, that there are aspects of the nexus of free will choice, foreknowledge and predestination that we can’t fully understand. However, I think the key word used in scripture regarding this is foreknew and yet you can’t have the rest of it without being left with a sense of awe, in out Maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 13, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 13, 2020 Before this thread gets closed as so many on this topic have been... Predestination; meaning what? Predestination that we are all hell bound at birth! John 3:18 b ...he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Free will changes this: John 3:18 a 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned Thems that believes is saved thems that don't ain't. Predestination PLUS Freewill rather than versus free will. Frame the argument right and it makes sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted July 14, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) Partial verse: 2 Tm 12 "...nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." Job 13:15 “Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.” Proverbs 3:5 “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.” Putting God in a box (or human doctrine) often only suffices to back ourselves into a corner. Mere mortals often cannot understand why and how the Lord High God does things. Edited July 14, 2020 by Justin Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 14, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.56 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2020 15 hours ago, Alive said: Its my opinion, that there are aspects of the nexus of free will choice, foreknowledge and predestination that we can’t fully understand. However, I think the key word used in scripture regarding this is foreknew and yet you can’t have the rest of it without being left with a sense of awe, in out Maker. Foreknew, when used to refer to people, means "chose beforehand" - see BDAG. The confusion surrounding this word would be cleared up, if only more translations would have the courage to translate it that way, rather than the vague, but also correct, "foreknew". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 14, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.56 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2020 14 hours ago, JohnD said: Before this thread gets closed as so many on this topic have been... Predestination; meaning what? Predestination that we are all hell bound at birth! John 3:18 b ...he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Free will changes this: John 3:18 a 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned Thems that believes is saved thems that don't ain't. Predestination PLUS Freewill rather than versus free will. Frame the argument right and it makes sense. Umm .... no. 1) Predestination, in the Bible, is ALWAYS positive (check a concordance - Rom. 8 and Eph. 1). 2) Since it means that God has decided the destiny of those predestined, it cannot be changed. 3) Unregenerate fallen man's will is in slavery to sin, so it does not have the freedom to do that which is contrary to its nature. This is why we MUST be born again, in order to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted July 14, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.55 Reputation: 9,015 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted July 14, 2020 14 minutes ago, David1701 said: Foreknew, when used to refer to people, means "chose beforehand" - see BDAG. The confusion surrounding this word would be cleared up, if only more translations would have the courage to translate it that way, rather than the vague, but also correct, "foreknew". I am not arguing with you, but do you find it interesting that two words are used in this verse. Rom. 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 14, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.56 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 14, 2020 6 minutes ago, Alive said: I am not arguing with you, but do you find it interesting that two words are used in this verse. Rom. 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Yes, it is interesting. Those whom God chose in advance, he decided the destiny of in advance - that destiny being, to be conformed to the image of his Son. God chose a people, out from the mass of hell-deserving humanity, to be recipients of his saving grace, instead of his damning justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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