Sin, Salvation, Grace..cont'd

[tsth]

So are you contending that it is acceptable for one to remain in acknowledged, willful sin? That is what you promote by your argument, so I see your argument as destructive and and contentious to the encouragement of purifying His bride.

I do not understand this line of thinking? What good does it accomplish, except to keep the poor in bondage and captivity. Where is the Power of the Lord in this? The captives need to be set FREE!!!!

In His Truth,

Suzanne

[Kansasdad]

Kansasdad,

So I assume you hold that if you loose your salvation, you cannot get it back, as that is what the Hebrews passage says (if it is adressing salvation)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Eric I just re-read through the verses and I don't see where is says you can't get it back. So no that is not what I am saying. Please give me the verses you are refering to.

Kansas Dad

[Kansasdad]

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

It seems obvious to me that this verse is comparing the punishment for the rejection of Jesus with the punishment for rejecting the law from the previous verse.

To sum it up I believe that this portion of scripture is describing an apostate. Therefore its not talking about a Christian who is struggling with sin nor is it talking about a prodigal son who may have strayed from the fathers house. It is talking about someone who willfully rejects Jesus.

apos

[Kansasdad]

This is the same argument Eric made and it doesn

[Fisher of Men]

Backsliders, lets say thieves or adulterers, who at one time received the Spirit and were genuinely new creatures, are condemned as long as they are partaking of those lifestyles.

So they have in a sense lost their salvation because as long as they are involved in those things they are condemned. 1 Cor 6:9

Does this mean that they cannot repent? In most cases no, it does not mean that they cannot repent and get back right with God again.

What do I mean by "in most cases"?

Hebrews 6 describes someone who has gone too far to whom God will not grant repentance. They have brought forth thorns as fruit to the extent and without the excuse of not having been enlightened and empowered so that God says, that's it, no more chances.

So some have lost it, but who have opportunity to regain it, while others have lost it and there is no hope of restoration.

Wilful, continued treading under foot the Son of God by doing despite against the urgings of His grace to restrain us from sin leads to the point where God has no choice but to throw his hands up so to speak and to say in effect "he has joined himself to idols, leave him alone". That's what we don't want; for God's Spirit and grace to be withdrawn from us because of our continued refusal to respond.

What defines that point where God will cut the person off?

That's his decision.

Ananias and Sapphira experienced it quickly as recorded in Acts 5. and it was also accompanied by physical death.

Those wilfully partaking in sin are in danger of it happening to them and are in the state of being the thorny ground into which the good seed of God's word has been sown but is being choked. Paul warned about our hearts being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. This is in context to the many called but few chosen concept.

Of all those adults saved out of Egypt, only Joshua and Caleb actually came to possess that for which they were saved to inherit. We were saved so that we could inherit eternity. Like them, whether or not we make it in after being initially saved, depends on what we do along the journey. 1 Cor. 10:1-11 Jude:5,6 Matt. 24:12,13

What do I mean by God cutting us off?

Rom. 11:

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Gal. 5:

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom. 8:

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

It's our choice what we will yield to. We will reap what we have sown.

Gal. 6:

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Rom. 6:

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Eph. 5:

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Edited June 20, 2005 by Fisher of Men

[Kansasdad]

Tess and Eric This is a quote from Sam68. I can not state this any better THANK YOU Sam. Sam has given many many verses and exceptional explinations of them which answere your questions.

{ Quote from Sam68: Can Christians Lose their Salvation?

This is the most important question Christians can ask, because their eternal soul may depend on it!

The greatest deception which has been devised by Satan that has been accepted by a large number of Christians is the false doctrine of "once saved, always saved." This doctrinal theory assumes once a person is saved that there is nothing he or she could ever do to lose his or her salvation. Even if he should become fruitless and commit the grosses sins, this creed teaches that he is still saved. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The reason so many American Christians believe this lie is because of the undo influence John Calvan had over European Christianity. (And, of course, Europe influenced America.) Calvin was the first to popularize the concept that all Christians will persevere to the end.

Although God definitely promises to do his part to keep us saved to the end, this does not mean that we do not have a part to play. God promises eternal security, but not unconditional eternal security. Nearly all God's promises are conditional; that is, they are dependent in part on us for their fulfillment.

WHAT DOES THE BIBLE TEACH?

It is important that we go to the Bible

[EricH]

Kansasdad,

So I assume you hold that if you loose your salvation, you cannot get it back, as that is what the Hebrews passage says (if it is adressing salvation)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Eric I just re-read through the verses and I don't see where is says you can't get it back. So no that is not what I am saying. Please give me the verses you are refering to.

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:26

If some on sins after becoming a believer in your economy, there is no longer a sacrifice for sins.

Also

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

It seems from these passages that if the person you are talking about is saved, and they fall away, 2 things are true:

1. There is no longer a sacrifice for their sins, but only judgement

2. It is impossible to renew them to repentance

[EricH]

So are you contending that it is acceptable for one to remain in acknowledged, willful sin?  That is what you promote by your argument, so I see your argument as destructive and and contentious to the encouragement of purifying His bride.

I do not understand this line of thinking?  What good does it accomplish, except to keep the poor in bondage and captivity.  Where is the Power of the Lord in this?  The captives need to be set FREE!!!!

In His Truth,

Suzanne

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am contending:

1. Your contention that the KJV is the best source for greek study is unsubstatiated.

2. Your interpretation of the tenses of the verbs in the passage does not agree with the greek text.

Paul is saying that if we continue living according to the flesh we will die, but if as an ongoing process in our lives we live according to the Spirit and have victory over the flesh we will live

[Kansasdad]

Kansasdad,

So I assume you hold that if you loose your salvation, you cannot get it back, as that is what the Hebrews passage says (if it is adressing salvation)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Eric I just re-read through the verses and I don't see where is says you can't get it back. So no that is not what I am saying. Please give me the verses you are refering to.

Kansas Dad

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:26

If some on sins after becoming a believer in your economy, there is no longer a sacrifice for sins.

I see no problem here, for it is by faith that we receive the sacrifice for sins, So logically if we no longer have faith then we no longer receive the sacriifice for sins. This verse does not say that if you walk away from your faith that you can not be called back and therefore found in Gods favor again.Also

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

Please tell me the chapter and verse here, Thanks.

It seems from these passages that if the person you are talking about is saved, and they fall away, 2 things are true:

1. There is no longer a sacrifice for their sins, but only judgement

2. It is impossible to renew them to repentance

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[EricH]

Hebrews 6:4-6

Your explanation of Hebrews 10 seems lacking in that it does not say there is no sacrifice apart form faith. It says there remains no sacrifice period. And it does nt sy if we become apostate. It says if we go on sinning willfuly.