Backslidden or Never Saved

[branchesofHim]

14 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Sad to say, but your mind-reading skills seem to have eluded you!

1) My surname is not "Taylor".

2) How do you know whether or not I've heard Templeton preach?

3) I've already provided biblical proof that someone who has been born again CANNOT revert to a life of practising sin.

Thanks be unto God for an honest individual. Who is and what does Templeton mean to anyone? Jesus means much more. Shalom.

[Heleadethme]

On 8/12/2019 at 7:10 PM, Behold said:

Demas, if he was actually born again, is currently in Heaven waiting for his new body.   He and Paul had a wonderful reunion, and have had 2000 yrs to chat and hang out with Jesus The Christ and Father God.

"Apostasy" if committed by a born again person, is just one more forgiven sin.   Just like the rest.    And its not counted against them in eternity, according to Romans 4:8.

Apostasy the sin, is no worse   then if a born again person watches "R" rated cable TV shows, or rents "R" rated movies.  Or listens to Rap, Beyonce, Miley Cyrus, and Drake.

Apostasy the sin, is no different and no worse  then turning a blind eye and a cold heart to a person who is dirty, living on the street, and has a sign that says "hungry", and the born again person ignores them every single time, at every single opportunity..........for years and years.

So, this idea of cherry picking "worst sins" vs "not so bad".......is something that a lot of Legalists do on forums, as they try to convince born again believers that ......"you have to be careful and not cross that line, because if you do, the blood of Jesus can't forgive THAT ONE".  And of course, this type theology is poisonous and the person who spreads it should be thoroughly marked by believers as someone who is ither not Saved, or is saved and is completely engulfed by self righteous  heresy.

Its always good to refer back to Philippians 1:6, as a reminder that the Same God who saved us, is Faithful to Keep us saved".  and this is "not of ourselves". it is the "Gift of God". "to as many as would BELIEVE In Christ".

Gal 6:7-8

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

[HAZARD]

26 minutes ago, branchesofHim said:

You are being ridiculous on purpose.....right?

Please, everyone, read the bible and see that even the righteous fall into sin on occasion because of the fleshly nature. It's simply existence in the world. Nothing more nor less. Shalom.

How true.  Even Peter was a back slider.

Matthew 26;
1. In verse 33; he boasted.
2. Made Christ a lier (v 33-35)
3. Slept instead of praying (v 40)
4. Failed to moritify the flesh (v 41)
5. Relied on the arm of flesh (v 51)
6. Forsook Christ and fled (v 56)
7. Followed afar off (v 58)
8. Sat with the Lords enemies (v 58)
9. Gave up hope-discouraged (v 58)
10. became afraid of men (v 69-74)
11. Lied (v 69-74)
12 Cursed (v 69-74).

 

In Matt. 26:58; "But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end."

Jesus had predicted his backsliding and re-conversion (Luke 22:31-34).

Fortunately unlike Judas who hung himself, Peter repented and was forgiven by god. Had Judas repented, instead of hanging himself, he would have been forgiven and saved.

 

[branchesofHim]

1 minute ago, HAZARD said:

Fortunately unlike Judas who hung himself, Peter repented and was forgiven by god. Had Judas repented, instead of hanging himself, he would have been forgiven and saved.

 

Indeed. You get it! Shalom. 

[branchesofHim]

Cain had the opportunity to admit his sin as well, and he didn't.

Genesis 4:[8] And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
[9] And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
[11] And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
[12] When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
[13] And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 

[ReneeIW]

18 hours ago, branchesofHim said:

You are being ridiculous on purpose.....right?

 

Er...no. I guess I’m ridiculous on accident.
You guys resurrected  an old post from last year and are now arguing about something different I think.

[walla299]

On 8/11/2019 at 9:06 PM, ReneeIW said:

How do you know if someone has backslid or was never truly saved in the first place? 

John says is 1 John 3:9 

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So, if a professing Christian goes through a period of time where they revert to their old sinful ways, how do we know if they are backslidden or not truly saved?

As Jade stated, we can't know whether someone is truly born again or not, only God can see the heart. There are some good indicators though, based on the "fruit" the person's life is producing.

Generally speaking, a believer living in rebellion to the Lord's will is going to be miserable and the consequences of the bad decisions are not going to be good. Their lives tend to be a mess, or heading in that direction because the Lord is not going to allow one of His children to wander forever. He wants them back. An old preacher told me once, "Sometimes God speaks to us with that still small voice, and if we don't don't listen long enough He'll throw a brick or two to get our attention."

The person who makes a profession of faith but their life never changes, or they go along for awhile and fall away (like the parable of the sower) may have a bigger problem. If the person is living in sin, enjoying their sin, and there is no evidence of chastisement or repentance in their life, chances are they were never saved to begin with. We can't say for certain though because we cannot see the person's heart. Ultimately the only thing we can do is pray that the Lord would open their eyes to their need of Christ.

 

[Marathoner]

The Lord instructs us not to put stock in what our eyes and minds of flesh perceive where His purpose and will are concerned. Consider the example of Jonah. 

When the Lord gave the prophet His words for Nineveh --- calamity would befall them if they did not repent --- Jonah fled in the opposite direction of the great city. Along the way a (literal) boatload of men cast aside their idols and made vows to the Lord on account of Jonah's insolence. The men cast Jonah overboard into the churning sea --- according to the prophet's words! --- where a tremendous fish swallowed him whole.  All seemed lost but such is the way of our God.  

The prophet's time in the belly of the fish is remarkable, something Christ spoke of in Matthew 12:38-41: the sign of Jonah, which He likened to His death and resurrection. The book of Jonah is brief but within we find these amazing words which speak of the mercy and kindness of God. Jonah 4:2,

"And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil."

Jonah despised Nineveh and knew the great city would repent when they heard the words of God. He was angry with the Lord because he knew God would forgive them and spare the city from disaster. Those whom the Lord loves, He forgives; those whom He chooses carry out His will in spite of themselves. 


I'll share another example though this isn't one we we'll find in God's word. Consider the example of a man whom, in the days of his youth, was visited by the Spirit of the living God. The man was stricken with dread when the Holy One spoke, declaring him to be the work of His hand, chosen for His purpose before he was formed in the womb.

"How can this be?" the man answered God in fear. "I don't know You and before this day I've never devoted a single thought to God. I'm ignorant, profane, and utterly worthless; my family has forsaken me and I have no place to call home. How am I to answer You, Lord?"

For three days and nights the Spirit of God prevailed upon the man until he relented at last, answering the Lord in submission to His will. God would send the man to His servants who would teach him all he needed to know: fear not, the Lord assured the wanderer, for you are in My hand. Is this too hard for you?

The words which God's Spirit spoke were true and so this man found himself in the company of the saints far away from where he was before. The Lord's servants taught him about Jesus Christ who was slain and whom God raised from the dead, baptizing him in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The wanderer was received with joy and for a time he abided with them as one of them, breaking bread with the brethren and devoting himself to looking after the needs of the fatherless and the widows. This wasn't too hard and so he rejoiced. 

One day without warning a horrific struggle began to unfold within this man, so terrible that he cried out to Christ, the Lord who had delivered him to the saints. Until this day God was swift to answer the man whenever he called but now His voice was silent. Terror gripped the man's heart and convinced that the Lord cursed him because he was ignorant, profane, and utterly worthless, he fled from the company of the saints resolving never to return. This was too hard for him. 

The saints mourned the passing of the man from their midst, gathering together and agreeing that because he was never one of them, he departed. This seemed wise and the so the elders laid the matter to rest. 

No one but the Lord knew the truth: this man faced his first battle against this flesh and discouraged by the challenge it presented he fled from his brothers and sisters in dismay. The man's shame drove him far away and so he wandered, homeless and dispossessed, for many years until dark days arrived when he was faced with a choice:

Turn away from someone in desperate need or lay down his life for their sake. This wasn't a difficult decision to make and so the man accounted himself worthless in comparison to his friend who was of inestimable value. This wasn't too hard for him.

When the deed was done and this man lay broken and dying, the Spirit of the living God came to him bringing everything to his remembrance: how he was the work of His hand and how the Lord chose him before he was given life in his mother's womb, setting him aside for His purpose. Christ reversed the wanderer's fortune, restoring his body and even his life which he willingly relinquished so that his friend might live. From that day forward the man walked according to the Spirit of the living God. 

Over the course of many years and countless trials this man discovered the nature of what we struggle against: this flesh and the wicked powers of this world. Rejoice because He who is within us has overcome death and this world!   

Edited August 8, 2020 by Marathoner

[JohnD]

On 8/11/2019 at 11:06 PM, ReneeIW said:

How do you know if someone has backslid or was never truly saved in the first place? 

John says is 1 John 3:9 

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 

So, if a professing Christian goes through a period of time where they revert to their old sinful ways, how do we know if they are backslidden or not truly saved?

 

To understand what is meant in passages like these you must temper it with the understanding of the rest of scripture. In this case the same

author (all scripture BTW is written by the same Author: the Holy Spirit who inspired the writing prophets see 2 Peter 1:20-21). Notice:

1 John 1:5–2:17 (AV)
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.
13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

These commands are belief in the Lord Jesus who was from the beginning, and you will be saved... and to even know who the Father is... and to love one another...

John 6:29 (AV)
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 16:27 (AV)
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

John 15:12 (AV)
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

We don't realize that an effective tool of Satan is adulterating Grace through legalism. Bringing Old Testament Law

into New Testament Grace.

One of the sneakiest ways has been the way our Bibles have been bound (dividing New and Old Testaments between

Malachi 4 and Matthew 1).

Clearly the dividing line between the two took place on the cross of Christ:

Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Luke 22:20 (AV)
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 (AV)
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

And passages like the Sermon on the Mount were under Old Testament times about Old Testament Law.

Jesus' own Divine commentary on how the Sanhedrin perverted the Law. And he put back in the Law the teeth they had removed

from it.

Jesus was not imposing a stricter observation on Christians than he had on Jews. In fact, he was refocusing the purpose of the Law:

To drive us to Grace through the futility of human beings trying to keep the Law.

Galatians 3:24–25 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

James 2:10 (AV)
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

It's always been about Grace / trusting in the Lord to make up for where and what we've fallen short...

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Moses was a murderer, David had Uriah murdered to cover up his adultery with Bathsheba, on and on...

Paul the Apostle considered his previous life as a Pharisee with respect to the Law as blameless... yet he

wrote it all off as dung (manure)

Philippians 3:4–8 (AV)
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom. Which is to say the heirs of the First Adam

cannot enter eternal life by any other means that the prepaid eternal forgiveness of the blood of Christ

activated by believing him. ← which is also a gift of God.

Even if one perfectly keeps the Law, they will never beat the rap that they have the sin nature of Adam.

Jesus is the last Adam. The final prototype. We are of this world. He is not of this world. We are sinful by nature.

He has no sin nature. He never did.

Back to the OP question...

There have been people that have convinced others heaven would be lucky to have them in eternity... who never make it to heaven.

There are people who no one is convinced would ever be in heaven... but are.

We are such poor judges of everything and everyone.

So easily fooled.

So out of touch with what God is looking for in the heart of man.

It's not just the Pharisees but us as well... who judge incorrectly or hypocritically about righteous / unrighteous people (according to us

or our interpretation of scriptures). Jesus said to the righteous religious leaders that publicans and prostitutes would enter the Kingdom

ahead of them.

Faith / belief / trust in God.

I pray God we are more like David and Moses and the publicans and prostitutes than the Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes and priests. And we stop judging.

You believe in Jesus. You do good. And good will come of it. God will see to that. ← which is the fruit James spoke of. 

If one can live as the super apostle Paul did... wonderful!

Be careful not to allow it to become your god.

If you cannot live like Paul (as most of us cannot), trust God to make up for our shortcomings.

Otherwise it's legalism.

God is very active in our lives and he knows how to motivate us when we need motivation.

He knows how to turn us away from sin.  Especially the bad ones. 

He can pull the plug if necessary (1 Corinthians 5:5) ← and in a very unpleasant way... turning them over to the

enemy who hates us as much as he hates God...

Another thing... if one can walk away from Christ, they were never his to begin with. 1 John 2:19.

We are easily fooled that  others are saved when they are not. 

This is why we are to test all things (1 Thessalonian 5:21 / 1 John 4:1) by the Bible (Acts 17:11 / 2 Timothy 3:16-17 / Proverbs 25:2 / Deuteronomy 29:29 / Isaiah 28:9-13)

Even then, God alone can see into the hearts of man.

 

[Billiards Ball]

On 8/12/2019 at 12:06 AM, ReneeIW said:

How do you know if someone has backslid or was never truly saved in the first place? 

John says is 1 John 3:9 

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 

So, if a professing Christian goes through a period of time where they revert to their old sinful ways, how do we know if they are backslidden or not truly saved?

 

Backsliders are miserable. Excessive backsliders die young. Those never saved are happy when they sin.