Jesus Name Apostolic Oneness theology

[Joe@actsii]

I was wondering if you could give me a definition of person as far as it relates to being used in the Trinity?

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Bro Joe, I'm all game for the discussion. To be honest, I've had quite enough of the bickering, too, and am now going to avoid those threads that seem to head that way.

I have a link here with a great examination of the Oneness system of theology. I can understand that if you have been taught the Oneness faith that it can be hard to "see anything but that." But, with John 1:1 it is really difficult to see the 2 separate individuals and then say they are one, even though the passage clearly shows that they are 2.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now, how can 1 Person be "with God (obviously a statement of someone other than Himself (the Word)" and at the same time "be God?"

There must be 2 Persons that are God, according to this simple statement of John 1:1.

Regarding a biblical definition of what "Personhood" entails...

Check out this link for a Discussion of Personhood

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A-men! I feel the same way. I understand that everybody feels that they are right, but sometimes we all just get a little over zealous in our approach and either proclaim or defend the truth. Sometimes I think that we just want to prove someone wrong? I know that is the case sometimes with me. I am trying to grow as a christian and a person and not let my flesh get in the way. God is good, and He is helping me to grow as a christian. I thank you for be a gentleman.

I have looked at the other link you post in the other Oneness thread. I am studying some of the points they make there. I will look at the link you posted above. I am getting ready for work now, I still need to take time for my morning time with the Lord. If it is not to much, I may print some of the information from the link, a read it over at work today during lunch. I also wanted to let you know that I was raised Trinitarian, and didn't become Oneness until the early 90's. I also try to stay open to different views, and have a couple of book written by x-oneness people. I have not read a book on the Trinity yet, but would like to. I have heard that "The Forgotten Trinity" by James White is good, have you read it? Also have you read any books by Oneness people?

I know that we can get very busy at times. I am currently signed up for college (3/4) time. My wife and I just had our first child. A girl, Halley Raine Stancliff. She was born May 27th. God is so good to me. I am studying Romans as part of a group with my church, Jude as a future teaching assignment from my pastor, the Oneness/Trinity on my own, and the whole salvation issue in the Bible on my own. I also read/post on 5 different forums. I said this to let you know a little more about where I am coming from (I really need to right out my testimony) also to let you know that am sure that you are also busy. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions/comments.

PS: Thank you for being a polite gentleman and respectful in your post to me. That means a lot to me personally. I will pray for you this morning that God bless you today and continues to let you grow in your relationship with Him and in your love for His Word and His truth. Talk to you later.

[Joe@actsii]

Hay T&O how are you doing? I hope your day went well? My day has been very busy. I just took a look at the link you posted. I will read over the article, and try to give some feed back later. I looked at this site before from your link in another thread. It is an interesting site. I think that the guy is biased, but then again aren't we all? Well I have got to go now, I will try to study the article tonight or maybe tomorrow, thank you for taking the time to recommend it to me.

Edited June 28, 2005 by Joe@actsii

[Trust & Obey]

Hay T&O how are you doing?  I hope your day went well?  My day has been very busy.  I just took a look at the link you posted.  I will read over the article, and try to give some feed back later.  I looked at this site before from your link in another thread.  It is an interesting site.  I think that the guy is biased, but then again aren't we all?  Well I have got to go now, I will try to study the article tonight or maybe tomorrow, thank you for taking the time to recommend it to me. 

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Joe, God bless you my brother!

[Joe@actsii]

Hey T&O, how have you been? Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I have been looking over the link that you posted. I just wanted to ask if the article on the meaning of person is considered mainstream for what trinitarians believe?

[Trust & Obey]

Hey T&O, how have you been?  Sorry for taking so long to get back to you.  I have been looking over the link that you posted.  I just wanted to ask if the article on the meaning of person is considered mainstream for what trinitarians believe?

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Joe, the definition of Personhood on that website seems to be an accurate portrayal of what could be expected from someone with unique personhood (such and you or I).

Honestly, most "Trinitarians" probably don't give the idea of "Personhood" too much thought because the idea is rarely challenged. Most people just take it as "a given" that people understand that the Father and the Son are different Persons.

[Joe@actsii]

The following is the article that you gave me as a link.

CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY www.carm.org

HOME PAGE

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Oneness and the word "person"

Oneness theology denies the Trinity doctrine and claims that there is one person in the Godhead who has manifested himself in three different forms: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These "forms" are not three separate persons, but one person who occupied consecutive modes. The Trinity, on the other hand, is the teaching that there is one God who exists in three separate, simultaneous, persons. Please note, though, this is not saying there are three gods.

In defending the doctrine of the Trinity and in examining the Oneness doctrine regarding the Godhead, it is first necessary to define the terms that are used. Since the Trinity doctrine states there are three persons in one God, and Oneness Pentecostal theology states there is only one person, we first need to know what a "person" is before we try to discover whether or not God is three persons or one. Therefore, what qualifies someone as having "personhood"?

I offer the following analysis as an attempt to adequately define personhood. After the outline, I will attempt to show that the definition and/or characteristics of personhood can be applied to both the Father and the Son in a context that shows they both existed as persons at the same time, thereby proving Oneness theology is incorrect.

What are the qualities and attributes of being a person?

A person exists and has identity.

A person is aware of his own existence and identity.

This precludes the condition of being unconscious.

A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.

A person can recognize the existence of other persons.

This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.

Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.

A person possesses a will.

A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.

A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.

Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.

Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.

A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.

Persons do not need to have bodies.

God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.

Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).

God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will.

The question now becomes whether or not there are more than one "persons" in the Godhead.

"Let this cup pass from Me."

"And he was withdrawn from them about a stone